The RCC changes the wording of the Mass in the USA...but why??

[tundramom]

They aren’t changing the wording of the Mass. They are correcting the translation of the Mass when it is said in English. This isn’t just for the US - it affects all of the Churches in English speaking countries.

It wouldn’t be a fair comparison with changes in the Morman ceremonies since those are in English to begin with. The Mass is in Latin and must be translated into other languages.

No, there is a Vatican “committee,” Vox Clara, that oversees the translations but they are done by representatives of all of the countries using a given language. So for the English translation, the representatives came from the US, UK, Canada, Australia etc. The Bishops councils of each country then get to vote on them and then they go to the Vatican for approval and/or corrections.

That isn’t a change. Bowing at the words of the incarnation is already in the GIRM. This and other gestures are actually GIRM issues and not directly due to the new translation.

I was the liturgy coordinator at my parish when the GIRM came out. As a relatively new Catholic, I am learning more and more every day how rich and deep our Faith is! I love it

in Christ
Steph

 

[tundramom]

Huh?

That is been part of the current Mass since it was promulgated.

In the Traditional Latin Mass, there was a genuflection, but it was replaced with a ‘profound bow’ (a bow from the waist) in 1972.

Here it is in the current General Instruction for the Roman Missal ( 2002)

Note that on Christmas and the feast of the Annunciation, we genuflect instead of bow.

This should be happening NOW in your parish, not as part of the new translation.

Again… learning something new!

In my earlier post I mentioned that I was liturgy coordinator in my parish. It’s really a lofty title that meant making sure the liturgies were all filled with altar servers, greeters, and such.

Shortly after the GIRM came out, we got a new Priest. He’s not quite as “by the book” as our former Priest was. Unfortunately a good half of the parish still doesn’t bow, let alone profoundly. I didn’t know that for a good while because our family usually sits near the front. When I started being a Cantor, I was astounded how many didn’t.

in Christ
Steph

 

[why_me]

The Catholic church isn’t doing this change to bring the Mass in line with the 20th century they are actually just making the English translation of the Mass more in line with the original Latin.

The big change occured when the Trindentine Mass was abolished and replaced with the new more personable Mass. This was a major change in the catholic mass and brought it into the 20th century. Now the Mass is being more refined but it is still in the 20th or 21st century.

I have been attending Trindentine Masses. They are quite different from the popular Masses, in tone and in spirit.

 

[why_me]

Eucharistic prayer 2 now has the following line (said by the priest):

Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall.

You can find it in the link provided earlier:
usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/

Thanks. It does sound strange but it is from the bible, right? I remember hearing it on NPR and the priest interviewed, I believe, said that it was from the bible. But I am not sure.

 

[rpp]

The big change occured when the Trindentine Mass was abolished and replaced with the new more personable Mass. This was a major change in the catholic mass and brought it into the 20th century. Now the Mass is being more refined but it is still in the 20th or 21st century.

I have been attending Trindentine Masses. They are quite different from the popular Masses, in tone and in spirit.

The Tridentine Mass was never abolished or abrogated.

 

[RC_Matt]

Exactly the opposite. This isn’t a “PC” mutilation. It’s not a perfect fix (what is, nowdays?), but it’s an improvement:

It’s the way it’s always been said in the Spanish Mass:

examples:

The creed now begins “I believe” (credo) instead of “we believe”

Yo creo en un solo Dios…

et cum spirito tuo is now “and with your spirit” instead of “and also with you”

Y con tu espiritu

pro multis is now translated as “for many” instead of “for all”

can’t remember this one

the three “mea culpas” have been restored.

por mi culpa
por mi culpa
por mi gran culpa

 

[ibkc]

The big change occured when the Trindentine Mass was abolished

1. It is properly called the Gregorian Rite mass or the Extraordinary Form mass, not the “Tridentine” mass.
2. It was never “abolished”.

I have been attending Trindentine Masses. They are quite different from the popular Masses, in tone and in spirit.

Since you’ve allegedly been attending EF masses, you should know that they were never abolished, so please be more careful with your language.

While the Extraordinary Form mass is indeed different “in tone and in spirit” from the Ordinary Form (not the “popular”) mass, the two forms achieve the same thing, and feature the same elements as they have since the beginning of Christianity.

 

[sancte_joseph]

1. It is properly called the Gregorian Rite mass or the Extraordinary Form mass, not the “Tridentine” mass.
2. It was never “abolished”.

Since you’ve allegedly been attending EF masses, you should know that they were never abolished, so please be more careful with your language.

While the Extraordinary Form mass is indeed different “in tone and in spirit” from the Ordinary Form (not the “popular”) mass, the two forms achieve the same thing, and feature the same elements as they have since the beginning of Christianity.

Let me correct your corrections…

The Old form of the Mass is more properly called the TRIDENTINE MASS since it was the council fo Trent that made it or promugated it…

More recently it has been called the Extraordinary form

and it can’t be called a RITE because its a PART of the ROMAN RITE

 

[why_me]

Let me correct your corrections…

The Old form of the Mass is more properly called the TRIDENTINE MASS since it was the council fo Trent that made it or promugated it…

More recently it has been called the Extraordinary form

and it can’t be called a RITE because its a PART of the ROMAN RITE

Thanks. I have been attending the Tridentine Mass when it is offered. I have called it the Tridentine Mass and the priest does not correct me so I am sure that I am right.

Thanks again!

 

[why_me]

The Tridentine Mass was never abolished or abrogated.

I would have to differ with this. Maybe it was not technically abolished but you would be hard pressed to find a priest that knows how to celebrate it. It came into disuse and is now becoming more fashionable since the Vatican gave it the thumbs up again.

When it came into disuse in favor of the more popular mass, it created a big change in catholic worship. It brought the mass into the 20th century and brought the mass into a more friendly format.

During the early 70’s, there were even folk masses where guitars and singing were conducted (very hippish). This was all done to get people back into the pews.

 

[ibkc]

Let me correct your corrections…

The Old form of the Mass is more properly called the TRIDENTINE MASS since it was the council fo Trent that made it or promugated it…

More recently it has been called the Extraordinary form

and it can’t be called a RITE because its a PART of the ROMAN RITE

You can tell that to Pope Benedict and Cardinal Hoyos. They announced recently that it is to be called the Gregorian Rite and corrected the false notion that this form of the mass only dates back to Trent.

Pope Benedict will reintroduce the old rite – which will be known as the “Gregorian Rite” - even where the congregation has not asked for it.

From Cardinal Hoyos’ press conference last June:

To be informed. Many of the difficulties come out because they don’t know the reality of the Gregorian Rite – this is the just [correct] name for the Extraordinary Form, because this Mass was never prevented, never. Today for many bishops it is difficult because they don’t have priests who don’t know Latin. Many seminaries give very few hours to Latin – not enough to give the necessary preparation to celebrate in a good way the Extraordinary Form.

I don’t like to name it (the) “Latin Mass” because the New Rite has Latin Mass too. Latin is in the New Rite one of the possibilities. In fact, in many dioceses in the world the Mass is celebrated in Latin, but with the new form of the Rite. The Gregorian Rite* is something different, not only the Latin language but many other elements. Think of the theology. During centuries, different currents of theology in the Church made contributions to (render more) precise the formulation of prayers and so forth in the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite. It was many of those prayers were an answer to the problems the Church lived in that precise moment, to point out some point of theology according to the ecumenical council of that time. That’s why it is very rich, the theology of the Roman Rite. In it was born the Gregorian music [chant] as a form of piety and a very high spiritual expression, musical expression, of the Faith. It was born inside the Rite. Many of the beautiful cathedrals of the Catholic Church were born in this kind of liturgy. And I would say that considering today these forms, these kinds of evolutions, I like to think about for instance the incense, and how the incense goes up, and how the cathedrals have taken the columns and all the structures, the architecture, of the churches, all according to this form of the Rite. It is very beautiful to hear today the Mass of Mozart or Beethoven. But, they attending to that kind of liturgy had the inspiration for their music. And so the music makes a “soul” within the Rite. The painter, if you look at the churches during those centuries, the way of painting was in accordance with this kind of worshipping God. It’s not only Latin. Latin is only a part of it and, as I told you, Latin is part in the New Rite too. Not only for the Gregorian rite, but for the New Rite, too.

 

[chris_molter]

It’s the way it’s always been said in the Spanish Mass:

You lucky Latinos and your Romance language!

Fortunately for Spanish speakers (and Portuguese, Italian, French, Romanian, etc) you’re speaking a direct descendant of Latin, which makes the translation issues easier and somewhat more direct. English has such a mix of Latin and Germanic (not to mention the grammatical differences) that we really have to watch our step to get not only the meaning of the Latin, but as close as we can to the actual Latin terms themselves.

I think these changes are a very good step in the right direction, and I hope to see things continue on this track.

 

[RC_Matt]

You lucky Latinos and your Romance language!

Fortunately for Spanish speakers (and Portuguese, Italian, French, Romanian, etc) you’re speaking a direct descendant of Latin, which makes the translation issues easier and somewhat more direct. English has such a mix of Latin and Germanic (not to mention the grammatical differences) that we really have to watch our step to get not only the meaning of the Latin, but as close as we can to the actual Latin terms themselves.

I think these changes are a very good step in the right direction, and I hope to see things continue on this track.

LOL, nah, my parents came from Ireland; but I grew up in a bilingual community and learned both languages. I never checked it, but always assumed the slight differences in the wording of the Masses was due to the Spanish being closer to the Latin.

 

[Peter_J]

pro multis is now translated as “for many” instead of “for all”

I know in French they use “pour la multitude”.

 

[Peter_J]

Let me correct your corrections…

The Old form of the Mass is more properly called the TRIDENTINE MASS since it was the council fo Trent that made it or promugated it…

I believe that “1962 Missal” would be more accurate than “Tridentine”.

More recently it has been called the Extraordinary form

and it can’t be called a RITE because its a PART of the ROMAN RITE

True, it’s one of three usages of the Roman Rite. (The other two are the Novus Ordo Usage and the Anglican Usage.)

 

[Peter_J]

They announced recently that it is to be called the Gregorian Rite and corrected the false notion that this form of the mass only dates back to Trent.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[Rolltide]

True, it’s one of three usages of the Roman Rite. (The other two are the Novus Ordo Usage and the Anglican Usage.)

You’re not counting the Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites? Or any of the many rites of the orders?

 

[Peter_J]

True, it’s one of three usages of the Roman Rite. (The other two are the Novus Ordo Usage and the Anglican Usage.)

No, because they are separate rites, not usages of the Roman Rite.

 

[Rolltide]

No, because they are separate rites, not usages of the Roman Rite.

But the rites of the various orders, for example, barely differ from the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Are they not just variants?

 

[Peter_J]

But the rites of the various orders, for example, barely differ from the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Are they not just variants?

I think Hesychios made a similar comment – something like, it would be more fitting if they were called recensions of the Roman Rite. (I’ve never actually been to any non-Roman Western mass, BTW.)

The question can also be asked the other way: should the EF, OF, and Anglican Usage be considered three different rites (or at least recensions) instead of “usages”?