The RCC facade

[Timmy_Z]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

 

[puzzleannie]

you are right, the popes should bring back the inquisition, try these dissenters for heresy, and erect stakes and start burning people again.

what discipline precisely would you suggest, if these do not sound PC to you?

 

[FrankLawrence]

The Catholic Church IS united in belief and doctrine. Sure, there are people who wantonly sin and want to still claim to be Catholic, but the sinful actions of individuals within the Catholic Church are in no way sanctioned by the Catholic Church. It becomes disturbing that yes, even some clergy, like that Dutch Bishop, for example, hold heterodox views to the faith, but such people are in VIOLATION of the faith, and horrible witnesses to the Truth. It is true that the Catholic Church, in my opinion, has been rather lax in ex-communicating people who openly reject official Church teachings, but that by no means suggests that such individuals are partaking in behavior that the Catholic Church sanctions. True Catholics, as opposed to cafeteria Catholics, are united in doctrine and belief.

 

[Pax]

There are unfortunately many people that are Catholic in name only. Those that defy the Church’s official teachings are in a state of rebellion whether they realize it or not. Every denomination has to fight against the influences of the world, and the Catholic Church is no exception.

The difference between the Catholic Church and non-Catholic Church communities when it comes to doctrine is as follows: The Catholic Church has officially declared and defined teachings and doctrines that are to be held by all of the faithful. Those that do not are in a state of rebellion. Each non-Catholic Christian Church is a community unto itself with its own understandings and teachings. Some are in common and some are not. Likewise, each seems to be fairly tolerant of the varied teachings. The Catholic Church forbids wandering from the truth that she proclaims. Those that stray do not receive approval.

Much more can be said on this, but I hope this helps.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’ve seen this assertion before, but the fact is that there is only one Catholic doctrine as presented from the only authority that we have and all those supposed people you have talked to are each and every one, either dissenters or in error.

N-Cs/a-Cs sometimes try to make this case but it just won’t wash.

One of my biggest problems with your post is that (as do so many n-Cs) you wish to compare the lowest common denominator Catholics with the highest common denominator n-Cs, when in fact you should be comparing highest to highest, since that is where the squared away people are.

I think it’s both unfair and unwise to make the comparison that you have and I feel sure that you would not appreciate it if I did something similar with your faith community.

So far as n-Cs and unity are concerned, the fact is that just going from denom to denom (or non-denom) there is division as to what constitutes core beliefs and/or proper interpretation of any given passage of scripture that comes up, and there is no such problem with “the RCC” as you chose to call us.

 

[Church_Militant]

you are right, the popes should bring back the inquisition, try these dissenters for heresy, and erect stakes and start burning people again.

what discipline precisely would you suggest, if these do not sound PC to you?

 

[Timmy_Z]

Franklawerance:

It is true that the Catholic Church, in my opinion, has been rather lax in ex-communicating people who openly reject official Church teachings,

but that by no means suggests that such individuals are partaking in behavior that the Catholic Church sanctions.

At what point does the unwillingness to correct a situation that is within your power to correct become a form of sanction and acceptance? I think the threshold has been crossed.

Pax:

The Catholic Church has officially declared and defined teachings and doctrines that are to be held by all of the faithful.

Yet the RCC also claims to be a visible church with a centralized authority. Many within the visible church openly express views contrary to the officially declared teaching and nothing is done.

The RC church priest on 1st and main street believes X. The RC church priest on 2nd and main street believes y. Officially the RC church believes Z. The Vatican does nothing. How is this one unified church?

-Tim

 

[st_julie]

You comment that many flagrantly reject the core doctrines of the RCC. This is absolutely correct. It is wonderful that you recognize that there are core doctrines in the Catholic Church. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. It is good that you recognize the facade of Catholics who spout a different Creed. As you search deeper I pray that you will meet the kind of Catholic that is truly committed to the teachings of the church . Right now we are living through the tail end of some Modernist heresies. Continue on your journey and God Bless
st julie

 

[Timmy_Z]

So far as n-Cs and unity are concerned, the fact is that just going from denom to denom (or non-denom) there is division as to what constitutes core beliefs and/or proper interpretation of any given passage of scripture that comes up, and there is no such problem with “the RCC” as you chose to call us.

My experience is that going from denom to denom is nearly the equivalent of going parrish to parrish.

Originally Posted by puzzleannie
you are right, the popes should bring back the inquisition, try these dissenters for heresy, and erect stakes and start burning people again.

what discipline precisely would you suggest, if these do not sound PC to you?

I originally thought the post was too immature to warrant a response, yet it has been repeated. Church disipline or excommunication is a practise that is commanded in the Bible and allowed in RC doctrine. I ask a question on why it is not used in the RCC and doctinal diversity is allowed or sanctioned within RC “union”. It is then insinuated that I am asking for torture and brutal murder. Grow Up.

-Tim

 

[Atemi]

Your experience is the same as mine.

All claims to unity I have found have been only that: just claims.

Unity on paper but not in the streets is no unity at all. Any Catechism can be unified with itself. Where is the impressiveness of that?

It is actual people that must be truly unified to declare any sense of unity, but that is not what we find in the RCC. I was a Catholic for most of my life, and it’s always been this way.

…

 

[Catherine_S]

I’ve seen this assertion before, but the fact is that there is only one Catholic doctrine as presented from the only authority that we have and all those supposed people you have talked to are each and every one, either dissenters or in error.

N-Cs/a-Cs sometimes try to make this case but it just won’t wash.

One of my biggest problems with your post is that (as do so many n-Cs) you wish to compare the lowest common denominator Catholics with the highest common denominator n-Cs, when in fact you should be comparing highest to highest, since that is where the squared away people are.

I think it’s both unfair and unwise to make the comparison that you have and I feel sure that you would not appreciate it if I did something similar with your faith community.

So far as n-Cs and unity are concerned, the fact is that just going from denom to denom (or non-denom) there is division as to what constitutes core beliefs and/or proper interpretation of any given passage of scripture that comes up, and there is no such problem with “the RCC” as you chose to call us.

:knight1:** !!**
.

 

[FrankLawrence]

At what point does the unwillingness to correct a situation that is within your power to correct become a form of sanction and acceptance? I think the threshold has been crossed.

As for the pedophile priest scandals, there was no excuse to not immediately ex-communicate those priests, and on the higher level, not to ex-communicate those who should have been resposible for turning them in to be ex-communicated. However, at the same time, that is a far cry from if the Pope had infallibly declared a doctrine that said, “It is perfectly acceptable for a priest to molest an altar boy.” That is where the difference lies between Catholic unity of belief, and Protestant disunity. The Catholic Church has official, indisputable(for Catholics) teachings, that remain official indisputable(for Catholics) teachings, even when people within the Catholic Church rebelliously ignore them, while Protestant is as Protestant does.
As for John Kerry, on the grounds that he publicly claimed to be Catholic but was willing to publicly and politically deny doctrinally declared Catholic beliefs, he should have been told, in a soup nazi tone of voice, “No Communion for you!” However, on the grounds that he hasn’t been to church in years, it would be a non-issue.
For individual Catholics, however, ex-communications due to behavior are not quite as simple, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. As I said before, that by no means does that mean that the Catholic Church is approving such behavior. It just means, well, all who have access to a Bible have access to the warning found in 1 Corinthians 11:27 and God will judge them.

 

[fellowChristian]

Hello…Freewill…!

Our children share our nature,they are human beings because we are.

Jesus shares His Fathers nature, He is God because the Father is God.

Jesus also shares His mothers nature,He is human because she is human.

All of us have one nature we are human.

Jesus has two natures He is both human and Divine. because of His parents.

And because Jesus is one with His Church, His Church is both human and Divine.

We make up the body of His Church that is the human part. Jesus being one with His Church, and the Holy Spirit guiding it. That is the Divine part.

Amazing isn’t it that Jesus handpicked the twelve Apostles,one betrayed Him, another denied Him, St. Paul persecuted Him and they all left Him.

Does that make the Church Christ founded any less His?

The Church Christ left us is made up of both sinners and saints. It is both human and Divine in nature.

It is because Jesus and His Church are one.

And what about

Matthew 23

Pharisaism Exposed

1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

My opinion we need more people who know, love and share their faith.

The Cafeteria is Closed Pope B XVI

 

[Church_Militant]

At what point does the unwillingness to correct a situation that is within your power to correct become a form of sanction and acceptance? I think the threshold has been crossed.

Who are you to judge another man’s servant?

The stated doctrines are already in place…there is no reason to expect the pope “correct” (or in this case micromanage) all this. The fact that the teachings have not changed and these people know they are in dissent or opposition already puts the need for change on them where it rightfully belongs. The rest is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Moreover…the church is a hospital for sinners and not a hotel for saints.

I’ve seen so-called n-C “willingness to correct a situation” from the inside and most often it consists of simply heaving the person out of the church without any implimentation of the rest of the scriptural precepts to help restore that brother or sister. God help us Catholics to never stoop that low…

Yet the RCC also claims to be a visible church with a centralized authority. Many within the visible church openly express views contrary to the officially declared teaching and nothing is done.

In your ill informed and biased opinion perhaps. How do you know that nothing is done? Since when does the Catholic Church have to advertise or get the approval of those communities that have willfully chosen to remain outside our communion? We don’t…we owe n-Cs no accounting whatsoever, though…as I said before, you have chosen to compare the lowest denominator Catholics with the supposed best of your own…which in the end proves nothing except that your thinking is biased and you’d prefer to find fault in an effort to somehow indict the church though you would be outraged if I did the same to your own faith community.

We are a visible church. VERY visible, and that is one reason that you are here…

The RC church priest on 1st and main street believes X. The RC church priest on 2nd and main street believes y. Officially the RC church believes Z. The Vatican does nothing.

How is this one unified church?Again…who are you to judge another man’s servant?

You are not privy to every action taken within the Catholic Church at every level…therefore your opinion is uninformed and driven by an agenda of bias.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Your experience is the same as mine.

All claims to unity I have found have been only that: just claims.

Unity on paper but not in the streets is no unity at all. Any Catechism can be unified with itself. Where is the impressiveness of that?

It is actual people that must be truly unified to declare any sense of unity, but that is not what we find in the RCC.

…

Atemi,

Your statement, which you seem to have intended as an indictment of the Catholic Church is actually an indictment of all Christians:

1 COR 1:10-11
I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.

In other words . . . it is no indictment at all. You simply point out that Christ’s Holy Catholic Church has in it sinful individuals, which, after all, was part of His plan, and explains His prayer “that they all may be one.”

I was a Catholic for most of my life, and it’s always been this way.

Yes, it has always been this way, but as I point out above with the quote from Corinthians, it has been so much longer than even most of your life.

The Unity that is one of the marks of the Catholic Church is both an internal and external unity, but that external unity is not found in the subjective adherence of individuals, but rather in the objective truths that the Church herself holds out thereby showing forth that unity in teaching.

*It seems to me that the very fact that you, or Timmy Z, can point out that many Catholics do not adhere to Catholic teaching illuminates the existence of a unified Church to which these Catholics are in greater or lesser accord.
*
What do you think?
VC

 

[Church_Militant]

My experience is that going from denom to denom is nearly the equivalent of going parrish to parrish.

Not the same thing at all though. All parishes belong to the same Catholic Church while each denom actually constitutes a completely different entity.

Furthermore, you have already compared differences from pastor to pastor and yet suddenly you wish to change the rules and assert that there is comparable conformity of belief and teaching from denom to denom, yet most all of us that came from n-C backgrounds know all too well that that variety from pastor to pastor even within denoms is at least as bad, if not drastically worse than anything that you have cited with respect to the supposed parishes you have used as an example.

I originally thought the post was too immature to warrant a response, yet it has been repeated. Church disipline or excommunication is a practise that is commanded in the Bible and allowed in RC doctrine. I ask a question on why it is not used in the RCC and doctinal diversity is allowed or sanctioned within RC “union”. It is then insinuated that I am asking for torture and brutal murder. Grow Up.

Get mad if you wish, but what I have shown you so far are just the logical and even common sense fallacies of your remarks.

As I pointed out…since you are grossly unaware of all disciplinary matters within the Catholic Church, you make allegations that are without substance because they cannot be proven.

For you to maintain your position (and save face on this issue I guess…) indicates a biased agenda to attempt to indict the Catholic Church for something that you actually know very little about.

I don’t know about everyone else on this thread…but it certainly appears to me that your comments are just agenda driven rhetoric.

 

[Church_Militant]

Your experience is the same as mine.

All claims to unity I have found have been only that: just claims

.

Unity on paper but not in the streets is no unity at all. Any Catechism can be unified with itself. Where is the impressiveness of that?

It is actual people that must be truly unified to declare any sense of unity, but that is not what we find in the RCC. I was a Catholic for most of my life, and it’s always been this way.Yet…your own myriad of religious denoms display far a worse problem with this than the Catholic Church.

And…as I have pointed out again and again…you willfully choose to compare the lowest denominator of Catholics to the supposedly highest of n-Cs as if that is indicative of the entire Catholic Church, yet would quickly and loudly cry foul if I did the same to your own faith community.

Therefore… this seems to indicate a biased agenda to find fault in the Catholic Church instead of have an honest discussion.

The fact is that I have accurately stated the situation among n-Cs and you and ND have essentially just attempted to cheer each other on by agreeing to the same fallacious remarks.

 

[Atemi]

Your statement, which you seem to have intended as an indictment of the Catholic Church is actually an indictment of all Christians

Indictment?

No.

Just an observation anyone can see.

It is simply better that we all (RC apologists included) recognize this reality rather than ignoring it time and time again. Saying it ain’t so will not make the issue go away.

In other words . . . it is no indictment at all. You simply point out that Christ’s Holy Catholic Church has in it sinful individuals, which, after all, was part of His plan, and explains His prayer “that they all may be one.”

No. I am simply pointing out that the doctrinal unity that so many Catholics boast about does not exist in reality. I am intimately aware of this fact.

Why that is is irrelevant. All we must recognize, however, is that it is.

Yes, it has always been this way, but as I point out above with the quote from Corinthians, it has been so much longer than even most of your life.

So then please convice other Catholics to stop always talking up supposed Catholic doctrinal unity that has been not been the case for the last 2000 years.

You only support the point of the OP here.

The Unity that is one of the marks of the Catholic Church is both an internal and external unity, but that external unity is not found in the subjective adherence of individuals, but rather in the objective truths that the Church herself holds out thereby showing forth that unity in teaching.

Basically, Catholic doctrinal unity does not reside in any actual doctrinal unity among Catholics.

This does not make your case any stronger.

…

 

[Atemi]

Hello Michael,

Yet…your own myriad of religious denoms display far a worse problem with this than the Catholic Church.

Whether it does or not (and it surely does not), is not the point.

The point, as relayed in the OP, is that all the claims to Catholic doctrinal unity do not stack up to experience or reality.

And…as I have pointed out again and again…you willfully choose to compare the lowest denominator of Catholics to the supposedly highest of n-Cs as if that is indicative of the entire Catholic Church, yet would quickly and loudly cry foul if I did the same to your own faith community.

No.

I do not compare the “lowest common denominator” Catholic (whoever that unfortunately is) to the “highest” non-Catholic Christians.

No.

All I need to do to determine RC doctrinal unity is compare every denominator of Catholic to the CCC and stated moral teachings of your church.

That is all one needs to do to see that all claims to Catholic doctrinal unity only exist on paper and on Catholic apologetics websites. The reality here on the ground tells a much, much different story.

The sooner more Catholics just come out and recognize and admit this, the more that can be done to rectify it. This is one of the major points of the OP itself. Merely sweeping these truths under the carpet will not fix them or win any points with those who know better.

…

 

[Inquirer]

I believe st julie hit this on it’s head!

You comment that many flagrantly reject the core doctrines of the RCC. This is absolutely correct. It is wonderful that you recognize that there are core doctrines in the Catholic Church.

Yes, there are core doctrines in the RCC. Those who stray from it know objectively that they stray from it. On the other hand when protestants stray from whatever teachings their faith community may hold, all they do is look for another faith community that would agree with them.

There are no core doctrines, just doctrines that are subjective to the denominations. It is the norm that Protestants choose the communities that are most in line with what they want to hear or what they believe to be the ‘more accurate’ interpretation.

There is no objectivity in protestantism, doctrines are relative to the denominations.

It is good that you recognize the facade of Catholics who spout a different Creed. As you search deeper I pray that you will meet the kind of Catholic that is truly committed to the teachings of the church .

The issue now is that we may have objective doctrines but we have so many who flagrantly reject them. This is a discipline problem which we must address, and not a doctrinal unity problem.

One should realise that there are over a billion Catholics … any assertion that ‘many’ do not follow Catholic teaching must take into consideration:

1. What you’re seeing are just the errant US Catholics - they make only a tiny fraction of the 1 billion. You may assume that they will be errant catholic elsewhere too, but this was already predicted in the bible.
2. What you’re probably also seeing are those who go against it and not those who keep the teachings - and there is simply no way to determine how many are caffeteria and how many are true - no way to get the numbers of the errant US catholics and even less chance of determining the figures world wide.

In any case, it’s one thing to have objective doctrines and folk straying away from it; than have no objective doctrines and folk going where ever they feel supports their beliefs. Don’t you think?