The RCC facade

[Tonks40]

I believe st julie hit this on it’s head!

Yes, there are core doctrines in the RCC. Those who stray from it know objectively that they stray from it. On the other hand when protestants stray from whatever teachings their faith community may hold, all they do is look for another faith community that would agree with them.

There are no core doctrines, just doctrines that are subjective to the denominations. It is the norm that Protestants choose the communities that are most in line with what they want to hear or what they believe to be the ‘more accurate’ interpretation.

There is no objectivity in protestantism, doctrines are relative to the denominations.

The issue now is that we may have objective doctrines but we have so many who flagrantly reject them. This is a discipline problem which we must address, and not a doctrinal unity problem.

One should realise that there are over a billion Catholics … any assertion that ‘many’ do not follow Catholic teaching must take into consideration:

1. What you’re seeing are just the errant US Catholics - they make only a tiny fraction of the 1 billion. You may assume that they will be errant catholic elsewhere too, but this was already predicted in the bible.
2. What you’re probably also seeing are those who go against it and not those who keep the teachings - and there is simply no way to determine how many are caffeteria and how many are true - no way to get the numbers of the errant US catholics and even less chance of determining the figures world wide.

In any case, it’s one thing to have objective doctrines and folk straying away from it; than have no objective doctrines and folk going where ever they feel supports their beliefs. Don’t you think?

Great post! When are going to be Catholic??? We need people like you!

 

[Inquirer]

Flattery will get you everywhere!

Oh I swam the Tiber at the feast of Christ the King last year! Been on this side of the river close to 1 year now!! Yee haa!

 

[angelusm]

How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating?

I don’t know. I know that Lutheran preachers took part in a gay parade in Sweden. Anglicans are also very “modern”. If catholic priests do it, it means they are either idiots or they just pretend to be catholic and want to confuse people.

There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women.

They are not catholic. Again the same thing: they are either idiots or they just pretend to be catholic and want to confuse people.

The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome.

How do you know? Do you know any statistics? If they call themselves catholic, they have to accept the whole (100%) teaching of the CC. If not – they are pretenders.

How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups?

If they do it, they are not catholic. They are, guess who, pretenders!

How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion?

None, REAL catholics defend life.

None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

I don’t think “ever”. I agree Church authorities should be much more strict.

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

There’s no variety, there’s one doctrine, one pope and one catechism.

Don’t you understand that the CC is the most hated organization in this world??? Many people hate us and do things that you mentioned. They only call themselves catholics while it’s an obvious lie. Don’t follow them, follow John Paul II, Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, etc.
That’s the greatest struggle – defending the truth and separating it from lies. This is what we have to do.

 

[Chipper]

Hello Michael,

Whether it does or not (and it surely does not), is not the point.

The point, as relayed in the OP, is that all the claims to Catholic doctrinal unity do not stack up to experience or reality.

…

Personally I don’t see the problem. The same thing can be said about the bible. Here we have the Sacred Word of God. So how come we can’t get everyone to agree on it. By your logic, since not everyone agrees on the interpretation, then it must be false.

The same thing can be said about Mathematics. Most of us have had mathematics in college, but how many of us can agree on some of the Trigonometric Formulas.

People are given Free Will, and the Catholic Church is not in the business of “Condemnation”, it is the business of “Salvation”. In order to save there must be forgiveness. So if your fellow human being strays, it is up to the Church to show patience and forgiveness. I don’t think I would want a “Catholic Police Force” knocking on my door and arresting me everytime I made a mistake in my theology.

 

[guanophore]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

What you are describing is the difference between Catholic doctrine (the Apostolic Faith) which does not change, and the application of that doctrine, which is a pastoral matter. surely there are priests and bishops that fall short of the call and standards. On the one hand, one must remember that Jesus taught that the wheat and the tares should grow together until the harvest. On the other hand the Church does have the authority to excommunicate those living in sin.

If you continue you studies, I think you will find that exercising this authority is a very complex matter.You might also consider that this dilemma has not come to your attention by accident, and that God has called you to be personally involved. Perhaps you are called to be a witness in a “progressive” environment? Perhaps you are called to help form the inadequate consciences of those around you?

At what point does the unwillingness to correct a situation that is within your power to correct become a form of sanction and acceptance? I think the threshold has been crossed.

It seems that way to me too, but not being a bishop or a priest, it seems somewhat presumptuous of me to judge their responses. there is a lot I do not know.

Yet the RCC also claims to be a visible church with a centralized authority. Many within the visible church openly express views contrary to the officially declared teaching and nothing is done.

What are you suggesting be done? I think you might be confusing the Authority to teach right doctrine with the authority to enforce the tenents of the faith on others. When one reads the parables, it is clear that Jesus taught many would call Him “Lord”, and would end up standing outside because they were not obedient to His teaching. This is a decision that each individual makes.

The RC church priest on 1st and main street believes X. The RC church priest on 2nd and main street believes y. Officially the RC church believes Z. The Vatican does nothing. How is this one unified church?

-Tim

I think it is not right to assume that “nothing is done”. The laity are not privy to disciplinary actions taken against the clergy. If you have a priest who does not seem to adopt and practice the true teachings of the faith, I would suggest that you talk to him, and if that does not satisfy you, write to his bishop.

 

[Teflon93]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

You are correct in noting that Catholic practice, even among our clergy, does not always correspond to Catholic teaching on faith and morals. This is certainly observably true.

In comparing the Church and her claims unfavorably, however, one should also ask about one’s own community:

1. What are the dogmatic beliefs and teachings of my community?
2. Who has the authority to establish or change these beliefs?
3. What happens when clergy or laity refuse to act in accordance with these beliefs?
4. Are these beliefs consistent with Christ’s teaching?

Now, the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years, and over that time has been comprised of billions upon billions of people from every walk of life and culture. Controversies have been well-documented over this period and have always been present—unanimous consent is not the norm in any large institution. And yet how many institutions extant today existed in 33 A.D.?

Let me ask this in a slightly different way:

Why did Paul write his letters? Why were they necessary at all?

Here were churches with direct apostolic teaching, often with members with direct experience of Christ’s ministry. And yet they strayed—their practices did not rise to the Christian standard.

The Jews, freed by the direct hand of God Himself, fed and nurtured by God in the desert, with God’s chosen priest leading them, still fell away into barbaric practices.

Does not the fact that men fall away from God say more about Man than God? Does man turning from God invalidate God’s truth?

 

[Pier]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

Don’t be discouraged…

Jesus said, in regard to those in positions of authority, that sometimes we have to do as they say, and not as they do.

And He also said that we are all sinners, who shouldn’t concern ourselves with the size of the speck in our brothers’ eyes.

 

[Stephen_C]

Yes Timmy Z and Atemi, you are both so correct…
So how do you suppose we get all those Catholic folks who split from the the Catholic Church starting back in the 1500’s back in the fold? Boy has that been a scandal or what. And what about that Catholic Monk changing doctrine and teaching heresy? Now we have all these folks starting different faith communities and changing doctrine and core Christian/Catholic beliefs left and right. We really need to do something about that for sure. So what do you both think we should do?

 

[RobHom]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. …

The Catholic Church, …is the only church on the planet with unified and cut in stone doctrine. We are not like protestants who shift with the winds and interpret scriptures to fit our own personal agendas, nor can parishioners just up and cast out their clergy…just because his message doesn’t give us warm fuzzies.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials.

You have figures to support your opinion, or are you just “opining” and throwing rocks?

How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating?

Are they advocating “homosexuality” as a practice or are they showing support for gays in that they too are God’s children? Are they not? Have you proof that they are not? I do not believe for a moment that homosexuality is correct, however it is not mine to judge, and at the same time…they are human beings. The Catholic Church long ago declared its position on homosexuality.

There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women.

I have often thought myself that this may not be a bad thing. Who among us is able to say that God cannot give the calling to a woman? But it is not my choice, and I uphold the Church’s position in any event. I am allowed to think for myself…

The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups?

You have statistics to back your claims? If not, your points are without merit. And those people…are NOT in full unity with Rome, much less any member of Catholic Clergy. While there may be some “ersatz catholics” belonging to those organizations…they will get there due in the end. They could as easily just be claiming to be catholics…and they could be outright “fakes”…its not an unused trick.

How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion?

And how many “protestant politicians” have done precisely the exact same thing you are alleging? For SIX years…both the House and Senate were controlled by the religious right…all ready at a moments notice to thump their bibles during a speech or photo op…and who ran roughshod over the opposition on numerous occasions…WHY DID THEY NOT CHANGE THE LAWS OR ENACT NEW LAWS?? Also, why has there not been a Constitutional Referendum brought forth by the people of this country to be voted upon? Don’t lay that trip on Catholic “politicians”. They are the distinct minority.

None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

You know this for a fact? If so, please show proof. The Holy See does not air its laundry for the world to see. The National Inquirer does not get the “scoop”.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because .

I don’t buy that. One consistent and ever present position of the Catholic Church has been its opposition to contraceptives. I have NEVER heard any member of Catholic Clergy or Lay ministry say that contraception was not a problem! 57 years of being Catholic, and not once. I don’t buy it, period.

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

I have traveled the world over…and been in every state in the nation and attended Mass. I have always seen a clear and concise uniformity of theology and practices. It is one of the things that I love about the Church. I know that I am “home” where I belong when I am in a Catholic Church.

Yes, there may be some within the Church that express their opinions, and where their opinions do not agree with the Holy See, their opinions are both wrong and irrelevant. I will admit that I have taken “umbrage” on one occasion with a priest…he sermonized “politics”. I had a personal talk with him after Mass…and made it clear that I did not want to hear his notions of “politics”…and that there were plenty of “talking heads” on TV…I did not need it in the Church. Interestingly…his views were not different very much from my own…but the pulpit is not about “politics”, it is about the Word of God. I never heard more, and I do also think others expressed the same opinion to him.

I think you have approached the Church with less of an open mind than you might think. I could be wrong…you could have talked to the wrong person…and I think that Deacon was wrong.

Its too bad you didn’t talk to my Parish Priest…you would feel very different.

 

[RobHom]

Yes Timmy Z and Atemi, you are both so correct…
So how do you suppose we get all those Catholic folks who split from the the Catholic Church starting back in the 1500’s back in the fold? Boy has that been a scandal or what. And what about that Catholic Monk changing doctrine and teaching heresy? Now we have all these folks starting different faith communities and changing doctrine and core Christian/Catholic beliefs left and right. We really need to do something about that for sure. So what do you both think we should do?

 

[Genesis315]

The difference is there is one acceptable rule of faith. For Protestantism/denominationalism, there are many different and contradictory rules of faith that are all acceptable.

 

[mlchance]

Yet the RCC also claims to be a visible church with a centralized authority. Many within the visible church openly express views contrary to the officially declared teaching…

Seems to be Christ Jesus had the same problem even among his Apostles. To apply your standard to Him, I guess that means he wasn’t truly the Son of God. Right?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi guys,

I think this problem goes much further then just which church do I go to and do I follow all they say and believe.

It stems from not truly knowing who God is and what Jesus did for us. Then from there it becomes ok I do know all of this but I really dont want to follow it!!

What churches(I am making a sweeping statement about ALL churches ALL over the world who preach the gospel) need to do more of is teach the salvation message of Christ and what will happen if they do not believe!! Most people are getting watered down versions of the gospel and I include the CC in this.

Another point is that many people dont even know what they are being saved from. People think hell is going to be a place to party and hang out with all their friends They will be sadly sadly mistaken if they end up there. How can one be joyful about salvation and going to heaven if they think hell isnt going to be so bad

The truth is the truth no matter what church you go to. JESUS CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH and he died so we could live eternity in heaven with Him in all His Glory!! AMEN!!! If people are not being taught what that means well then shame on those churches.
However, I dont put all the blame or responsability on the churches. I think TRUE Christians(people who actually follow Christ daily) need to evangelize to people one on one. Christ probably told us to do this because He knew how effective it would be
Just my :twocents:

I do my part—do you?

 

[Lampo]

I think G.K. Chesterton said something like, “If a Catholic only accepts partial teachings of the Catholic Church, he rejects 100% of the Church.” That’s not exactly, but something like that. If anyone could show the exact quote, I’d appreciate it.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hello Michael,

Hello yourself…

Whether it does or not (and it surely does not), is not the point.

The point, as relayed in the OP, is that all the claims to Catholic doctrinal unity do not stack up to experience or reality.

The point is that the factual authority that establishes Catholic doctrine is a reality that n-Cs can not even attempt to lay any realistic claim to…and the fact that your entire argument is based not upon faithful Catholics but those who dissent and reject the valid teachings of the faith.

No.

I do not compare the “lowest common denominator” Catholic (whoever that unfortunately is) to the “highest” non-Catholic Christians.

Refuted by any reader here who uses his God-given common sense to read the posts of those who allege this. I stand by my previous statement.

by Me

:
And…as I have pointed out again and again…you willfully choose to compare the lowest denominator of Catholics to the supposedly highest of n-Cs as if that is indicative of the entire Catholic Church, yet would quickly and loudly cry foul if I did the same to your own faith community.

No.

All I need to do to determine RC doctrinal unity is compare every

denominator of Catholic to the CCC and stated moral teachings of your church.Yet you do not do so… In fact you ignore all of us who do indeed stand with the authoritatively defined dogma and doctrines of the church.

That is all

one needs to do to see that all claims to Catholic doctrinal unity only exist on paper and on Catholic apologetics websites. The reality here on the ground tells a much, much different story.The problem here is that you attempt to use this to decry the Catholic faith for something that your own faith communities can not even begin to assert. That makes this a specious argument from n-Cs.

The sooner more Catholics just come out and recognize and admit this, the more that can be done to rectify it. This is one of the major points of the OP itself. Merely sweeping these truths under the carpet will not fix them or win any points with those who know better.

This is just more rhetoric without merit.

Can you point to any such authority and unity of doctrine among your own community? No, you cannot. in fact, you are unwilling to even address the issue. Why? Because there is absolutely no hope whatever of getting any such authoritative definition of doctrine from n-Cs. Ever since the “reformation” they have succeeded in nothing more than more and more errant divisions, even going so far as to cease teaching the early church fathers because if they did refer to them it would only reinforce the very Catholic nature of their teachings.

There really is no merit to this argument that you seek to advance and again…all I see is a comparison of the worst of Catholics to some mythological best of n-Cs, probably for no other purpose than to attempt to create a dichotomy that actually does not exist.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi guys,

I think this problem goes much further then just which church do I go to and do I follow all they say and believe.

It stems from not truly knowing who God is and what Jesus did for us. Then from there it becomes ok I do know all of this but I really dont want to follow it!!

What churches(I am making a sweeping statement about ALL churches ALL over the world who preach the gospel) need to do more of is teach the salvation message of Christ and what will happen if they do not believe!! Most people are getting watered down versions of the gospel and I include the CC in this.

Another point is that many people dont even know what they are being saved from. People think hell is going to be a place to party and hang out with all their friends They will be sadly sadly mistaken if they end up there. How can one be joyful about salvation and going to heaven if they think hell isnt going to be so bad

The truth is the truth no matter what church you go to. JESUS CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH and he died so we could live eternity in heaven with Him in all His Glory!! AMEN!!! If people are not being taught what that means well then shame on those churches.
However, I dont put all the blame or responsability on the churches. I think TRUE Christians(people who actually follow Christ daily) need to evangelize to people one on one. Christ probably told us to do this because He knew how effective it would be
Just my :twocents:

I do my part—do you?

:thumbsuprobably the most balanced statement from an n-C so far.
Thank you for that.

 

[mschrank]

you are right, the popes should bring back the inquisition, try these dissenters for heresy, and erect stakes and start burning people again.

what discipline precisely would you suggest, if these do not sound PC to you?

Yes, they should! I’ll buy the matches.

 

[Church_Militant]

Yes, they should! I’ll buy the matches.

This doesn’t help the discussion at all. If you can’t offer a charitable and informative contribution to a discussion, how are you better than some of the a-cs who post here?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Probably the most balanced statement from an n-C so far.
Thank you for that.

I only call em as I see em------wait isnt that baseball? or not

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Timmy Z: My experience is that going from denom to denom is nearly the equivalent of going parrish to parrish.

Timmy, thank you for your very insightful questions. On the surface, one can see much diversity and much of that diversity is contrary to what the Church teaches. But deep down, there is unity that transcends the diversity and problems. It is the Eucharist. To fully grasp the Church, you have to first look to the Eucharist (Christ physically among us).

Secondly, the Church has doctrine and dogma that it teaches with great clarity. When it isn’t found in fullness in a parish, it is to be found and known in the Catechism.

From TimmyZ: I originally thought the post was too immature to warrant a response, yet it has been repeated. Church disipline or excommunication is a practise that is commanded in the Bible and allowed in RC doctrine. I ask a question on why it is not used in the RCC and doctinal diversity is allowed or sanctioned within RC “union”. It is then insinuated that I am asking for torture and brutal murder. Grow Up.

I think you missed the point of Puzzle. She didn’t insinuate that you suggested torture or murder. She was just pointing out that the history of the Church has included some rather extreme punishment for heresy. Today, the Church relies on self-excommunication. If you believe with full knowledge and consent matters contrary to Church doctrine, you have excommunicated yourself. If you practice artificial birth control, you are committing grave matter. If you steal from your employer, you are committing grave matter. Etc.

At the same time, the Church understands that the graces of our Lord is at work in us always (even without our conscious awareness or consent/cooperation). This working of the Holy Spirit can lead to a conversion of heart. It is in this that the Church aspires to be an aid ot the Holy Spirit and not a detriment.

I really suggest that you find a good Priest who understands and adheres to the teachings of the Church with whom to visit. I also suggest that you tune into “Threshold of Hope” on EWTN which explains various teachings of the Church in ways that are relevant to the average Christian.

Final comment, I’m always struck by non-Catholics who have concrete suggestions for the Church to be more true to itself. Catholics are taught that the God-ordained charisms of teaching authority and protecting of the Faith reside exclusively in the individual Bishops and the Magisterium. While we might hold opinions, we are to have an attitude of submission, obedience and support for that which comes from the Bishop in trust that it is he who knows best what the Church needs.

Granted, this attitude appears to condone errancy but in fact it can correct errancy. An attitude of trust in the Holy Spirit requires us to take more things to prayer and the counsel of the Holy Spirit. It is in these intimate discussions we find out what, if anything, the Holy Spirit wants from us on this matter as opposed to our own judgement.