The real cost of illegal immigrants is huge and serious

[Ituyu]

No matter how it happens with the elimination of illegal workers wages will go up substantially. Some companies will fail, others will adjust with more automation via machines and robotics and still others will relocate their labor-intensive operations offshore. The companies that thrive will be a boon to our economy and our GNP will be stronger.

You’re subscribing to economic hocus pocus. All of Western Civilization with the exception of our country, due to Immigration legal and otherwise, are experiencing economic decline. We’re the only one that is growing. Your fabrication is merely poppycock for if it were true, Japan and all of Western Europe would have adjusted and be experiencing this magical boon. Instead Japan has reached the point of unsustainable population decline and in the next 50 years will see it’s population drop by 50% if it does not allow for more immigration. Recent news about the problems in Europe testify to the unreliability of your claims.

 

[Ituyu]

I am fairly happy with our current immigration laws. I am not too happy with our lack of enforcement of those laws nor am I happy with the way we allow illegals to be hired. I am for elimination of all employment for illegals via reasonable means as well as a much more rigorous protection of our borders.

Don’t look now but discontent with the failure of our immigration policies and laws are at the crux of national debate. Nobody seems to be happy with them. Yet unrealistically you continue to subscribe to the merits of a system that is broken and has failed its purpose, to meet our labor needs. We’ve had a hand in creating this problem by not allowing sufficient numbers to meet the demand. There is no secret that Immigration legal or not is directly related to our need for workers. We simply closed the door on legal immigration before we met our needs. Had we just allowed sufficient workers to meet the demand for labor, we would not be having this conversation.

 

[Fremont]

One way to relieve the enormous burdens placed on our hospitals by illegal immigrants might be as follows.

Most hospitals request religious preference on the paperwork for each patient treated. While not mandatory most people provide such designation such as Catholic, some form of Protestant, Jewish, etc.

All hospitals, public or private, will then bill the local bishop for all unpaid charges for medical care and services provided to all patients who list Catholic as their religious preference.

The bishops will show their credibility and sincerity for illegal immigrants and other needy, i.e. Solidarity, by paying the costs. This will give the bishops an opportunity to participate more directly in the illegal immigration question as well as to help alleviate the inequitable burdens placed on the local community and hospitals – rather than just sitting on the sidelines and demanding that others carry the entire load.

Many millions of dollars will likely be involved and bishops can obtain the necessary funds from some combination of insurance, donations, assessments, support from the USCCB, sale of diocesan property, etc.

This certainly will not solve all the problems of illegal immigration but will relieve at least some of the unfair pressure put on our medical system by the illegals – and it is a good beginning

 

[Fremont]

You’re subscribing to economic hocus pocus. All of Western Civilization with the exception of our country, due to Immigration legal and otherwise, are experiencing economic decline. We’re the only one that is growing. Your fabrication is merely poppycock for if it were true, Japan and all of Western Europe would have adjusted and be experiencing this magical boon. Instead Japan has reached the point of unsustainable population decline and in the next 50 years will see it’s population drop by 50% if it does not allow for more immigration. Recent news about the problems in Europe testify to the unreliability of your claims.

When all workers are legal, be that by legal immigration, guest worker programs or any other process, the days of cheap labor will be gone. Labor laws, OSHA rules, minimum wage laws, etc. will cover all workers.

As businesses now relying on cheap illegal immigrant labor see their labor costs escalate dramatically they will be required to make major adjustments in the efficiency of their operations or raise prices and possibly fail.

Options include reducing their labor needs by converting labor-intensive operations to capital-intensive automation via machines and robotics, moving labor-intensive operations off shore, etc.

This sort of adjustment has happened in the past, is happening now and will likely happen in the future.

You are correct that the US economy is one of the healthiest in the world. Our population is growing but much faster by births than by immigration. This fact was very recently reported in the press.

I do not know much about the economic situation in Japan but certainly many of their major industries are growing and expanding significantly. For example Toyota is poised to overtake GM as the largest auto company in the world within the next few years. I would expect Japan to adjust in some way to meet their challenges. I doubt if Japan will cease to exist in the next century.

 

[Fremont]

Don’t look now but discontent with the failure of our immigration policies and laws are at the crux of national debate. Nobody seems to be happy with them. Yet unrealistically you continue to subscribe to the merits of a system that is broken and has failed its purpose, to meet our labor needs. We’ve had a hand in creating this problem by not allowing sufficient numbers to meet the demand. There is no secret that Immigration legal or not is directly related to our need for workers. We simply closed the door on legal immigration before we met our needs. Had we just allowed sufficient workers to meet the demand for labor, we would not be having this conversation.

I have consistently supported programs and policies that will encourage illegal immigrants to voluntarily leave the US.

When such laws and policies are in place I would hope that during this process economic pressures would pressure our government to adjust immigration laws and rules to meet the needs of the country. This will likely be an adjustment form illegal workers to legal workers over a period of several years.

I believe a smooth and more orderly process is much better than any sort of knee-jerk reaction “fix-it” pill.

 

[Ituyu]

This forum is about immigration. There may be others that discuss the poor and how they might best be helped. It might be useful to seek those and offer help there.

And per your post here. Baloney. There is no attack on the poor in my opinion, at least I have not seen any in this forum
.

The “illegal” immigrant comes here to get out of poverty. Just like most of our ancestors. The “illegal” who did not pay his medical bill did so because he was poor not because he was “illegal”.

On the contrary, aid provided by the citizens of the US, directly and through various charities, as well as foreign aid by the US government to various poor of the world is extremely generous. There have been numerous occasions when the US has welcomed refugees from areas of conflict. That is not attacking the poor.

Charity is a good thing. But, unless you are saying that we will provide for the needs of those who are currently law-abiding and working then we are attacking them.
If you believe this generosity is misplaced or provided to the wrong people so be it. This is a republic that provides alternatives for you to strive to get your feelings and ideas heard.

I hardly believe that acts of Charity are misplaced. But, those that would deny people a means to provide for their families on an arbitrary basis are not charitable. That is why I must support that we allow these people to come out of the shadows and to fully participate in our way of life.

Back to immigration. The costs to our country inflicted by illegals are enormous. I am for laws and policies that encourage illegal immigrants to leave the US voluntarily. There are very reasonable means to achieve this under discussion in congress at this time. Maybe even better ideas to rid the country of illegals will come up in the future. I will likely support any means that merely cause inconvenience to those who violate our laws and adopt lying, cheating and stealing as a way of life.

Again your point is misleading. There are costs with the “illegal’ because they are poor. Yet the benefits and contributions to us, and our economy, far outweigh those costs.

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml

 

[Ituyu]

The Minuteman group I see, God bless them, are like a large, organized neighborhood watch and doing a wonderful job of reporting illegal activities to the authorities. Something the US bishops refused to do. I hold the Minuteman group in much higher respect than those bishops.

While some Minutemen, I am sure, are motivated by some misguided sense of public service, it does not excuse the extremism found within its camp. The group is riddled with the presence of a fanatical element that is intolerant of people who are different than they. That element has led to violence against people who come here in search of a job. One of the founders Chris Simcox was reportedly arrested on Federal Felony charges for carrying a weapon illegally while tracking border-crossers on Federal parkland. It’s no secret that he condones armed vigilante activities along our borders and it’s no secret that both our immigration officials and President Bush disapprove. You know so much has been said in the media about the “Mexican” flag being used in marches but little is said about the use of the Confederate Flag and the Nazi flag in their demonstrations along our borders which represents to me a racist image that has often been connected with violence. I’m afraid as a former participant in a Neighborhood Watch, the Minuteman do not compare favorably. Ironically this sort of criminal conduct is the type of thing that would disqualify a person from a legalization process.

washingtontimes.com/national/20050324-122200-6209r.htm

If families are disrupted by deportation of illegal immigrants that is the choice of the families, not the authorities. Affected families are free to keep their relatives together in any country where they have citizenship or legal residence. If a child is a US citizen he or she can reside with the family until they reach of age. They can then legally come to the US and work to sponsor other family members.

This is simply not consistent with the American view of “Justice” from my perspective. It is not acceptable to punish the innocent. A child has no such ability to make a choice and the choice that the “illegal” makes is to fulfill his God given responsibility to provide his family. Most have chosen to work at honest work without participating in any crimes. Being an “illegal” alien is not a crime in and of its self. It comes under Civil Law not CRIMINAL LAW.

To answer your question, yes I believe it is wrong to steal back something that someone stole from you. There are other, less violent and legal methods to recover your property. There are also other legal means for residents of Mexico to enter the US – about 200,000 are admitted per year on average. That may not be enough for you but frankly I couldn’t care less

.

It doesn’t answer my question. I had hoped that you would address the “moral” aspect not the “legal” which is what the Catholic Church considers. There are in different circumstances many possible approaches but I hardly think that “morally” I would be guilty of stealing for recovering my own property. Anyway, I have no idea if your figures are correct. Whatever the figures, we know that we didn’t allow sufficient “legal” immigration to meet our labor needs.

Other statements are ridiculous. They mix legal and illegal acts together as a common theme. Balderdash.

I’m not surprised at your reluctance to explain your contradicting positions on the law. After all you would have to accept that sometimes the law is “wrong”. Laws that arbitrarily deny a person’s Human Rights are wrong.

 

[Fremont]

The “illegal” immigrant comes here to get out of poverty. Just like most of our ancestors. The “illegal” who did not pay his medical bill did so because he was poor not because he was “illegal”.

I reject this. Most illegal immigrants have jobs in Mexico before they embark on their illicit entry into the US. They are not in a state of famine or starving. They may want a better job – but who doesn’t. If they paid their required taxes and other obligations they encumber here the net gain from their standard of living in Mexico is likely very little, if any. Just because they want their cake and then eat it too here because they cannot get away with that in Mexico that does not cut any slack with me.

I do not think the US needs to be a free clinic to the world. If illegals cannot or will not pay their obligations they make here they should stay home. Ever been to an ER? Watch how many illegals spend a lot of time on their cell phones. Maybe if they sold their cell phone and their TV and other nonessential items they could pay at least some of the costs of their medical care. One of the basic rules of immigration into most countries is that the immigrant will not be a burden on society. Illegals are definitely a burden to the US.

Poverty claims are a gross exaggeration. If there were really dire poverty in Mexico that affected millions of people, as there is in Somalia and some other countries, the WHO and other international organizations would declare the crisis. The US, both citizens and government, would be among the first to send aid. Just because you claim the condition exists does not make it so.

Charity is a good thing. But, unless you are saying that we will provide for the needs of those who are currently law-abiding and working then we are attacking them

I hardly believe that acts of Charity are misplaced. But, those that would deny people a means to provide for their families on an arbitrary basis are not charitable. That is why I must support that we allow these people to come out of the shadows and to fully participate in our way of life.

Illegal immigrants are at least at the bottom of my list of worthy charities – maybe not on the list at all. That includes giving them a job in the US. I sure hope most others have the same view. If they want to “fully participate in our way of life” they can work to do it legally. They can stay home and apply for legal immigration or guest worker status.
Ituyu;1527899:

Again your point is misleading. There are costs with the “illegal’ because they are poor. Yet the benefits and contributions to us, and our economy, far outweigh those costs

Totally bogus. The net cost to our society and community is enormous. I guess we could exchange references all day on this point but that seems useless. I am convinced illegal immigrants are a severe burden to the US and very far from a blessing.

 

[Ituyu]

I reject this. Most illegal immigrants have jobs in Mexico before they embark on their illicit entry into the US. They are not in a state of famine or starving. They may want a better job – but who doesn’t. If they paid their required taxes and other obligations they encumber here the net gain from their standard of living in Mexico is likely very little, if any. Just because they want their cake and then eat it too here because they cannot get away with that in Mexico that does not cut any slack with me.

Maybe some did have a job. However, having a job does not mean one does not live in poverty. All the available facts indicate that there are vast numbers of people in Mexico who work and live in poverty.

I do not think the US needs to be a free clinic to the world. If illegals cannot or will not pay their obligations they make here they should stay home. Ever been to an ER? Watch how many illegals spend a lot of time on their cell phones. Maybe if they sold their cell phone and their TV and other nonessential items they could pay at least some of the costs of their medical care. One of the basic rules of immigration into most countries is that the immigrant will not be a burden on society. Illegals are definitely a burden to the US.

Consensus among economists throughout the country would disagree with you.

money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm?cnn=yes

 

[shockerfan]

Consensus among economists throughout the country would disagree with you.

money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm?cnn=yes

1. Not sure the author’s sources when they say “most economists”. Did the author do a survey?
2. Others disagree their the authors assessment:
   cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3. there is also a human price to pay for illegal immigration
   immigrationshumancost.org/

redtape.msnbc.com/2006/03/hidden_cost_of_.html

fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersf134

1. I agree we need immigrants, just the legal kind. If our laws do not support the manpower needed, then we need to reform the laws…not ignore them.

 

[Fremont]

While some Minutemen, I am sure, are motivated by some misguided sense of public service, it does not excuse the extremism found within its camp. The group is riddled with the presence of a fanatical element that is intolerant of people who are different than they. That element has led to violence against people who come here in search of a job. One of the founders Chris Simcox was reportedly arrested on Federal Felony charges for carrying a weapon illegally while tracking border-crossers on Federal parkland. It’s no secret that he condones armed vigilante activities along our borders and it’s no secret that both our immigration officials and President Bush disapprove. You know so much has been said in the media about the “Mexican” flag being used in marches but little is said about the use of the Confederate Flag and the Nazi flag in their demonstrations along our borders which represents to me a racist image that has often been connected with violence. I’m afraid as a former participant in a Neighborhood Watch, the Minuteman do not compare favorably. Ironically this sort of criminal conduct is the type of thing that would disqualify a person from a legalization process.

“The group is riddled with the presence of a fanatical element”? Whoooo. This is the best example of the Pot trying to call the Kettle black I have heard in a long time. A real classic. But in this case the Kettle is many shades whiter than the Pot.

I have a great deal of respect for the Minuteman organization and their operations. If there are any overenthusiastic individuals in the group I am confident they will be weeded out.

For every person watching our border for despicable illegal immigrants trying to sneak into the US who carries a weapon, there are likely 10 illegal immigrants here that carry a weapon – the arrest records show that. I think both behaviors are wrong. Then there are the illegal immigrants who shoot guns into the air on New Years, May 5 and other occasions with no regard for the potential harm to innocent people – not my idea of law-abiding people.

This is simply not consistent with the American

view of “Justice” from my perspective. It is not acceptable to punish the innocent. A child has no such ability to make a choice and the choice that the “illegal” makes is to fulfill his God given responsibility to provide his family. Most have chosen to work at honest work without participating in any crimes. Being an “illegal” alien is not a crime in and of its self. It comes under Civil Law not CRIMINAL LAW.

Sure, the child has no choice. So what is new? Parents make many major choices for their underage children in our society. That is fine with me. If the parent(s) have chosen to break the law and are now to be deported, it is their choice if they take the child or not. US civil authorities do not make that decision. No one is punishing the innocent unless acts by the parents are considered punishment.

I do not care how you characterize the laws that forbid illegal immigration there are penalties for violation of those laws that often result in deportation.

It doesn’t answer my question. I had hoped that you would address the “moral” aspect not the “legal” which is what the Catholic Church considers. There are in different circumstances many possible approaches but I hardly think that “morally” I would be guilty of stealing for recovering my own property. Anyway, I have no idea if your figures are correct. Whatever the figures, we know that we didn’t allow sufficient “legal” immigration to meet our labor needs.

I do not know how many ways I can answer your question before your ego is satisfied. For the last time I think it is wrong for you to steal back property that has been stolen from you. I believe two wrongs do not make a right – legally, morally, ethically or any other way. There are alternatives.

It is easy to check the immigration figures; they are available on the WEB from the US government. Again, the number may not be what you like but I could not care less about that.

 

[wabrams]

Consensus among economists throughout the country would disagree with you.

money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm?cnn=yes

We’ve played this “most economist” game before; fortunately for you all the posts over the last 4 mos are gone or I might would go back and re-posts all the old posts that shot that arguement down the last time you tried to use it.

 

[Ituyu]

quote=Fremont;1528412]“The group is riddled with the presence of a fanatical element”? Whoooo. This is the best example of the Pot trying to call the Kettle black I have heard in a long time. A real classic. But in this case the Kettle is many shades whiter than the Pot.

I have a great deal of respect for the Minuteman organization and their operations. If there are any overenthusiastic individuals in the group I am confident they will be weeded out

Sorry but you won’t have a vote of confidence from me. They haven’t changed and they are still toting guns while looking for trouble.

For every person watching our border for despicable illegal immigrants trying to sneak into the US who carries a weapon, there are likely 10 illegal immigrants here that carry a weapon – the arrest records show that. I think both behaviors are wrong. Then there are the illegal immigrants who shoot guns into the air on New Years, May 5 and other occasions with no regard for the potential harm to innocent people – not my idea of law-abiding people.

I not surprised at your extreme hard-nosed attitude that allows you to blame “illegal” immigrants for everything. But, I am glad you admit that the racist like element that has long been a part of that group that you respect so much is worthy of being weeded out.

Sure, the child has no choice. So what is new? Parents make many major choices for their underage children in our society. That is fine with me. If the parent(s) have chosen to break the law and are now to be deported, it is their choice if they take the child or not. US civil authorities do not make that decision. No one is punishing the innocent unless acts by the parents are considered punishment.

We don’t have to be so hateful and extreme in our approach. It’s totally unnessary and serves no one. These situations are easlily avoidalbe by taking a level-headed and reasonable approach.

I do not care how you characterize the laws that forbid illegal immigration there are penalties for violation of those laws that often result in deportation.

I know. That’s the point.

I do not know how many ways I can answer your question before your ego is satisfied. For the last time I think it is wrong for you to steal back property that has been stolen from you. I believe two wrongs do not make a right – legally, morally, ethically or any other way. There are alternatives.

You can try answering an honest question without evading by answering a different question, honestly.

It is easy to check the immigration figures; they are available on the WEB from the US government. Again, the number may not be what you like but I could not care less about that.

I know, I know. It’s the "us against’ them mentality. It is a woeful part of our history.

 

[Ituyu]

We’ve played this “most economist” game before; fortunately for you all the posts over the last 4 mos are gone or I might would go back and re-posts all the old posts that shot that arguement down the last time you tried to use it.

I too wish they were available because there is a need to understand the difference between “consensus” and “some”.

 

[wabrams]

I too wish they were available because there is a need to understand the difference between “consensus” and “some”.

Neither one really matters. A consensus could be the entire economics dept of one community college.

 

[Ituyu]

Neither one really matters. A consensus could be the entire economics dept of one community college.

Um, ok.

independent.org/newsroom/news_detail.asp?newsID=74

 

[a_cermak]

What about the people who are currently gaining under immigrant labor? Who will provide the elder care, the child care, the affordable home repairs and rehabs, the lawn care? You seem to believe that wages will rise, but what about the people who can no longer afford these services?

And who’s going to enforce these new laws anyway? The Feds have shown through the debacle in Iraq and the disaster of Katrina, to say nothing of the great shampoo scare, that they are incapable of just about everything. They will get little assistance from law enforcement in large immigrant enclaves because it will not be in those community’s interests to do this enforcement (and it is not their job, it’s the feds job).

 

[Fremont]

What about the people who are currently gaining under immigrant labor? Who will provide the elder care, the child care, the affordable home repairs and rehabs, the lawn care? You seem to believe that wages will rise, but what about the people who can no longer afford these services?

And who’s going to enforce these new laws anyway? The Feds have shown through the debacle in Iraq and the disaster of Katrina, to say nothing of the great shampoo scare, that they are incapable of just about everything. They will get little assistance from law enforcement in large immigrant enclaves because it will not be in those community’s interests to do this enforcement (and it is not their job, it’s the feds job).

You are making arguments we have all seen before, and they need to be considered.

The ends do not justify the means. It is not proper to use illegal or immoral means to achieve even desirable ends.

It is up to us to find a way to achieve desirable situations by ways that are legal and proper.

When all workers become legal, by whatever method, cheap illegal immigrant labor will go away. The labor laws, OSHA rules, minimum wage laws, etc will cover all workers. The cost of many of the services you mention will likely increase. We will just have to pay the additional cost or come up with ways to do the job with fewer workers.

Enforce the laws? The proposals I have seen indicate it might not be that hard.

Public companies will likely comply very quickly because the stockholders will not tolerate fines and other penalties that harm the company.

Private companies of any size have to file daily, weekly or monthly tax returns with the IRS. It will not be practical to try to hide invalid social security numbers and most will comply as well.

That whittles the number down quite a bit and a reasonable number of federal officers can start inspections. After a few employers are fined and serve some jail time many others will comply.

This will likely take a few years but then only small numbers of illegal immigrants will remain and that will likely be a manageable number.

 

[Ituyu]

The ends do not justify the means. It is not proper to use illegal or immoral means to achieve even desirable ends.

Yikes! But it’s proper to make criminals of people, cast them into poverty, break up their familes, and harm our economy? Well the means nor the ends are justified there. Where as the alternative to allow them to legalize their status and participate fully in our way of life seems to be a far better approach.

When all workers become legal, by whatever method, cheap illegal immigrant labor will go away. The labor laws, OSHA rules, minimum wage laws, etc will cover all workers. The cost of many of the services you mention will likely increase. We will just have to pay the additional cost or come up with ways to do the job with fewer workers.

But Fremont, there will always be those at the bottom and that is our cheap labor. Just because they are legal doesn’t give them an automatic raise though I do believe there is some truth to that. However, none of the countries in the world especially Japan have been able to make the scenario you describe work. They are ALL having to find ways to attract more immigration. We are the only ones that are growing and the Hispanic community is contributing the most in terms of a growth market.

Enforce the laws? The proposals I have seen indicate it might not be that hard.

I have yet to hear any knowledgeable expert say that eforcing it is either possible or desirable.

Public companies will likely comply very quickly because the stockholders will not tolerate fines and other penalties that harm the company.

To their own peril! Because I repeat nobody has found the answer for sustaining growth without more people through immigration.

Private companies of any size have to file daily, weekly or monthly tax returns with the IRS. It will not be practical to try to hide invalid social security numbers and most will comply as well.

They don’t have to hide them. They don’t exist. For those that want a TIN can apply for one easily. The government takes money and no questions asked.

That whittles the number down quite a bit and a reasonable number of federal officers can start inspections. After a few employers are fined and serve some jail time many others will comply

Again more draconian measures for no apparent reason. So you punish people but what have you solved? What have we gained?

This will likely take a few years but then only small numbers of illegal immigrants will remain and that will likely be a manageable number.

It won’t ever happen! It would require enforcement and that would take so much time and money that it is not worth the effort. We can’t find ways to deport all those we know of much less those we haven’t even identified. Nobody would leave voluntarily. You see something like 70% of those already here have been here for 5 or more years. Ordinarily they would qualify for “Naturalization”. One of my friends, an American citizen, recently married a Mexican woman. All her family was here “illegally” and yet he was able to “legally” legalize their status within 6 months. They had been here over twenty years. I went to the ceremonies and they all seemed like wonderful people and they are all now permanent residents “legally” with the option to become American citizens.

 

[Fremont]

Yikes! But it’s proper to make criminals of people, cast them into poverty, break up their familes, and harm our economy? Well the means nor the ends are justified there. Where as the alternative to allow them to legalize their status and participate fully in our way of life seems to be a far better approach.

Rant, rave, whine all you want. People make choices. If they choose to violate the law they become criminals. If they suffer inconvenience because of the consequences they brought it upon themselves.

They don’t have to hide them. They don’t exist. For those that want a TIN can apply for one easily. The government takes money and no questions asked.

If that is the case, so be it. At least they have credentials. However if they lied to obtain them then all bets are off and they are guilty of both illegal and immoral behavior.

It won’t ever happen! It would require enforcement and that would take so much time and money that it is not worth the effort. We can’t find ways to deport all those we know of much less those we haven’t even identified. Nobody would leave voluntarily. You see something like 70% of those already here have been here for 5 or more years. Ordinarily they would qualify for “Naturalization”. One of my friends, an American citizen, recently married a Mexican woman. All her family was here “illegally” and yet he was able to “legally” legalize their status within 6 months. They had been here over twenty years. I went to the ceremonies and they all seemed like wonderful people and they are all now permanent residents “legally” with the option to become American citizens.

I certainly am not talking about trying to deport millions of people. That is impractical. I support programs that encourage illegal immigrants to leave the US voluntarily.

It is very nice that your friends found a legal way to become legal residents of the US. I hope they have many years of happiness.