The Real Foundation of Protestantism: Rejection of Hell

[Catholic_Dude]

When its all said and done thats what Protestantism is about, rejecting the reality of hell because it was too scary to think about.

Sure they believe in hell on the surface because the Bible talks about it…but they dont really believe what hell is, that is a place of punishment. They cant fathom the concept that their actions will be judged by God at the end of their life, what if they dont make it?..such uncertainty is truly scary when one really thinks about it.

The Protestant answer was to sidestep this doubt by creating a false sense of security, most commonly called Faith Alone. They believe once they Believe in Jesus they are off the hook forever, they dont have to have the intention that they can now sin for free (that comes later), the point for them is that they have a guarantee of Heaven.

The Truth, which the Catholic Church has preserved, says Hell is real and sinners will be sent there including Christians who dont obey Christ during their life. There are no guarantees, no green cards, no golden tickets or anything similar, accepting this reality results in real faith and most especially hope and love.

 

[Writer]

When its all said and done thats what Protestantism is about, rejecting the reality of hell because it was too scary to think about.

Sure they believe in hell on the surface because the Bible talks about it…but they dont really believe what hell is, that is a place of punishment. They cant fathom the concept that their actions will be judged by God at the end of their life, what if they dont make it?..such uncertainty is truly scary when one really thinks about it.

The Protestant answer was to sidestep this doubt by creating a false sense of security, most commonly called Faith Alone. They believe once they Believe in Jesus they are off the hook forever, they dont have to have the intention that they can now sin for free (that comes later), the point for them is that they have a guarantee of Heaven.

The Truth, which the Catholic Church has preserved, says Hell is real and sinners will be sent there including Christians who dont obey Christ during their life. There are no guarantees, no green cards, no golden tickets or anything similar, accepting this reality results in real faith and most especially hope and love.

As a former Protestant, you’re assertions are overly simplistic view. Actually, hell was a topic of more sermons I heard in my Protestant days than as a Catholic. I think they view hell as very real, but they misunderstand what working one’s salvation out with fear and trembling really means. On the other hand, finding a balanced point is really necessary if you are going to be a good and happy Christian. Remember David’s Psalms, we are to be happy in our God. Your post appears to betray a level of sadness or melancholy.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Here’s a rather famous Protestant sermon on the subject:

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God - by Jonathan Edwards

 

[Catholic_Dude]

As a former Protestant, you’re assertions are overly simplistic view. Actually, hell was a topic of more sermons I heard in my Protestant days than as a Catholic. I think they view hell as very real, but they misunderstand what working one’s salvation out with fear and trembling really means. On the other hand, finding a balanced point is really necessary if you are going to be a good and happy Christian. Remember David’s Psalms, we are to be happy in our God. Your post appears to betray a level of sadness or melancholy.

Hearing it preached and believing in its reality for disobedient Christians are two different things. I have heard it preached in protestant circles as well, but almost never have I heard that their actions will be judged.

 

[jemfinch]

Rejection of hell has nothing at all to do with Sola Fide. The original proponents of this doctrine as well as most of their subsequent followers very strongly believe in the existence of hell as an eternal place of torment.

Please, provide evidence for your assertion. Quote Martin Luther or Calvin, or any number of Christians in their footsteps. Without such evidence, this theory is easily debunked as the same sort of conspiracy theory that we hear from Protestants about how the Church went “apostate” in A.D. XYZ.

Jeremy

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Here’s a rather famous Protestant sermon on the subject:

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God - by Jonathan Edwards

Onece I hit that link it sent me to reformed.org, reformed protestants most certainly fit my point.

As I skimmed over that sermon I didnt see anything that disagreed with my point, infact when it came time to “apply” the sermon to his audience the first words out of his mouth “The use of this awful subject may be for awakening unconverted persons in this congregation.”
As I kept skimming I saw the same theme of nonChristians being the ones at risk. If Im wrong please correct me.

 

[havemercy]

Wow. I’d say you’re pretty wrong.

 

[Milliardo]

When its all said and done thats what Protestantism is about, rejecting the reality of hell because it was too scary to think about.

Sure they believe in hell on the surface because the Bible talks about it…but they dont really believe what hell is, that is a place of punishment. They cant fathom the concept that their actions will be judged by God at the end of their life, what if they dont make it?..such uncertainty is truly scary when one really thinks about it.

The Protestant answer was to sidestep this doubt by creating a false sense of security, most commonly called Faith Alone. They believe once they Believe in Jesus they are off the hook forever, they dont have to have the intention that they can now sin for free (that comes later), the point for them is that they have a guarantee of Heaven.

The Truth, which the Catholic Church has preserved, says Hell is real and sinners will be sent there including Christians who dont obey Christ during their life. There are no guarantees, no green cards, no golden tickets or anything similar, accepting this reality results in real faith and most especially hope and love.

See the topic also here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116903 Seems that, with bibleapologist’s answers, you might have something here…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Rejection of hell has nothing at all to do with Sola Fide. The original proponents of this doctrine as well as most of their subsequent followers very strongly believe in the existence of hell as an eternal place of torment.

Please, provide evidence for your assertion. Quote Martin Luther or Calvin, or any number of Christians in their footsteps. Without such evidence, this theory is easily debunked as the same sort of conspiracy theory that we hear from Protestants about how the Church went “apostate” in A.D. XYZ.
Jeremy

Yes it does, the point is there is something that gets them off the hook forever, their actions dont play into the salvation equation at any time.
Also note there is a huge difference between believing in Hell as a place where “OTHERS” are sent but when it comes to saying Hell is possible for THEM and their congregations who disobey Christ they are either silent or extremely vocal that Christians cant be dammed.

One of the most popular Refromed Protestant documents, the Westminster Confession of Faith says in Ch18:
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, **may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed. **

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation …

III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. …

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.

 

[valient_Lucy]

When its all said and done thats what Protestantism is about, rejecting the reality of hell because it was too scary to think about.

Sure they believe in hell on the surface because the Bible talks about it…but they dont really believe what hell is, that is a place of punishment. They cant fathom the concept that their actions will be judged by God at the end of their life, what if they dont make it?..such uncertainty is truly scary when one really thinks about it.

The Protestant answer was to sidestep this doubt by creating a false sense of security, most commonly called Faith Alone. They believe once they Believe in Jesus they are off the hook forever, they dont have to have the intention that they can now sin for free (that comes later), the point for them is that they have a guarantee of Heaven.

The Truth, which the Catholic Church has preserved, says Hell is real and sinners will be sent there including Christians who dont obey Christ during their life. There are no guarantees, no green cards, no golden tickets or anything similar, accepting this reality results in real faith and most especially hope and love.

I disagree. Protestants do believe in Hell, and actually, the Calvinistic sense of predestination creates a far greater fear of Hell than any Catholic doctrine. Think about it. Calivinism’s doctrines basically say that we can go our whole lives thinking we’re saved, thinking that God loves us, but the reality is, God could have already decided that we’re going to Hell, simply because He wants to send us to Hell. I used to be terrified that God had actually hated me, and there was nothing I could do to make Him love me. It’s hard to imagine how terrifying that fear is.

I heard a story of a Puritan woman who was so terrified trying to determine whether or not she was one of the elect, that she threw her baby into the well and drowned him. After he died, she said with relief, “Now I know I am not one of the elect, since I just drowned my child.”
Furthermore, they believe that good people of other religions, including those who have never heard of Christians, are doomed to go to Hell. I actually used to have a hard time accepting that a person who did not believe in Christ could go to Heaven.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I disagree. Protestants do believe in Hell, and actually, the Calvinistic sense of predestination creates a far greater fear of Hell than any Catholic doctrine. Think about it. Calivinism’s doctrines basically say that we can go our whole lives thinking we’re saved, thinking that God loves us, but the reality is, God could have already decided that we’re going to Hell, simply because He wants to send us to Hell. I used to be terrified that God had actually hated me, and there was nothing I could do to make Him love me. It’s hard to imagine how terrifying that fear is.

Thats just it, they MAKE themselves saved (ie faith alone), most dont apply your logic and recognize they are lying to themself. I have made threads on this before asking for any Calvinist who didnt think they were saved, I couldnt find a single one.

You clearly werent fooled…

I heard a story of a Puritan woman who was so terrified trying to determine whether or not she was one of the elect, that she threw her baby into the well and drowned him. After he died, she said with relief, “Now I know I am not one of the elect, since I just drowned my child.”
Furthermore, they believe that good people of other religions, including those who have never heard of Christians, are doomed to go to Hell. I actually used to have a hard time accepting that a person who did not believe in Christ could go to Heaven.

Thanks be to God you are now Catholic.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hearing it preached and believing in its reality for disobedient Christians are two different things. I have heard it preached in protestant circles as well, but almost never have I heard that their actions will be judged.

Then you can’t have read any of the Protestant Confessions, or not recently. Nor the Puritans. Nor Calvin’s sermons. commentaries, or anything else by him; I’m reading his “Sermons on Micah” just now - they are very hard-hitting, whether he is warning Genevan Protestants of the wrath of God upon their sins, or criticising the sins of Catholicism.​

I strongly suggest Ralph Venning’s excellent book [The Sinfulness of Sin (http://www.amazon.com/Sinfulness-Sin-Puritan-Paperbacks/dp/0851516475) - he makes Jonathan Edwards’ famous sermon looks extremely wimpy in comparison .

Seriously, TSoS is superb - anyone who takes it to heart will never again think sin is trivial; I can’t recommend it strongly enough; though people with scruples should avoid it. After 330 years, it still packs a tremendous punch.

I thought that Calvin & Luther (& others too) were to blame precisely because they preached the reprobation, & so the damnation, of the non-elect.

So what is the complaint against them to be:

• emphasising Hell not at all ?
• emphasising it too much ?
• emphasising it in an unjust way ?
  Judgement of disobedient Christians is mentioned on almost every page of Calvin on Micah; not inappropriately, since the book is full of severe judgements against the kingdom of Judah. One might almost conclude from the sermons that the only reason God had adopted sons, was in order to chastise them severely - this would be an absurd caricature, but a not wholly unreasonable one even so; Calvin does not encourage one to believe one can sin with impunity.

It is Calvinists who have gone in for days of national repentance & confessions of national apostasy, & for preaching of the wrath of God against national unrighteousness. We are wimpy by comparison. ##

 

[Sandi]

This Protestant believes in Hell and it doesn’t matter if my belief meets your criteria, since you are not the judge of who believes “correctly”.

Better go back to the drawing board with your argument.

BTW, why are you so anxious to prove someone else is wrong? Isn’t your own faith strong enough?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yes it does, the point is there is something that gets them off the hook forever, their actions dont play into the salvation equation at any time.

Why should they ?​

1. The state of the unregenerate is irrelevant to their acts - they are sure of Hell, if they are not reconciled to God by Christ the Saviour. Then they cease to be unregenerate, for they receive the Spirit of adoption & holiness.
2. The state of election, once it is realised in an elect & justified sinner, is unchangeable for him, so he cannot be lost. He is sure of Heaven. So even his sins, abominable & damnable & worthy of Hell as the least of them is, have no power to damn him.

He is not better than the reprobate - he deserves (of himself) to be damned, he is (of himself) equally an enemy & murderer of Christ, equally a child of the devil. The difference is in Christ, for it is Christ Whose Righteousness blots out the sin of the elect, Christ Who is their Salvation - of themselves, there is neither repentance not conversion nor obedience nor holiness nor any good thing whatever.

Or do we create ourselves, convert ourselves, justify ourselves, purify ourselves ? God is the potter, we are the clay; Christ is the Prince, we are the guilty rebels; the Spirit is the LORD, we are to obey Him. We are not God, but we can be forgiven by Him, not because of our sin-infected “righteousness”, but because we receive a righteousness wholly of grace, which is not ours, nor accessible to us. ##

Also note there is a huge difference between believing in Hell as a place where “OTHERS” are sent but when it comes to saying Hell is possible for THEM and their congregations who disobey Christ they are either silent or extremely vocal that Christians cant be dammed.

Any Calvinist saying that forgets that the elect =/= the visible church. Those who worship on a Sunday in church won’t be saved if they are not justified by Christ - many who seem to be non-elect, may well be elect even so. This is Calvinism 101.​

Christians can’t be damned; that would mean that God is a liar or faithless or a joker - professing Christians can be because profession is no proof of saving faith. That is why election, godly living, and so much more, have to come together: mere profession in words is worthless.

To say that Christians, at peace with God, are as damnable after justification as before, makes the Atonement a hollow mockery. It makes Christ & His Work totally effectless. But in fact, their sinfulness has been executed, so it cannot damn them.

There is no reprobation left for the Christian, because “there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8.1) - Christ has borne it for us on the Cross, by becoming sin for us, & by becoming a curse for us: both of those terms are straight from St.Paul - they are blasphemous (as is so much else about Our Lord) & they are true. Calvin, to his credit, doesn’t shy away from them. So only those have access to damnation who are not in Christ.

The misunderstandings about Calvinism are almost enough to make one become one

[continue]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…continued & ended]

Christ is King: we can accept his offer of pardon now - or feel His unbearable anger hereafter. It is St. John who shows us this anger, in Rev. 6. And if we have his pardon, we have to stop insisting that he treat us as the rebels & traitors that we are; His pardon is a full pardon, sealed & signed in His own Blood; it makes no exception for any sin, but is the pardon for all sins. The only way to ensure one cannot receive it, is to reject it. And criminals are in no position to dictate terms - they must accept those their King offers, or continue as rebels. ##

One of the most popular Refromed Protestant documents, the Westminster Confession of Faith says in Ch18: **Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.**I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, **may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed. **II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation … III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. …IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.

And there is a problem because…?​

 

[Pug]

When its all said and done thats what Protestantism is about, rejecting the reality of hell because it was too scary to think about.

I grew up Methodist. The congregation I grew up in quite surely believed in hell. One worried that one might be a goat and go to hell, or that one might fall away. To characterize all Protestants as “They believe once they Believe in Jesus they are off the hook forever” is incorrect in my book.

I do agree that when facing hell and uncertainty, one can just come to fear it so much that one decides that only the truly horrible ever end up there. I think having confession helps against this tendency.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Then you can’t have read any of the Protestant Confessions, or not recently. Nor the Puritans. Nor Calvin’s sermons. commentaries, or anything else by him; I’m reading his “Sermons on Micah” just now - …​

I strongly suggest Ralph Venning’s excellent book The Sinfulness of Sin
…

Judgement of disobedient Christians is mentioned on almost every page of Calvin on Micah;
…

Can you point me to an online sermon by Calvin stating that a Christians actions, in this case evil actions, have a real effect on the individuals salvation.

Why should they ?​

1. The state of election, once it is realised in an elect & justified sinner, is unchangeable for him, so he cannot be lost. He is sure of Heaven. So even his sins, abominable & damnable & worthy of Hell as the least of them is, have no power to damn him.

“once it is realized in the elect” is nothing more than an assumption on man’s part, we dont know the future nor how we will act, for all we know we could abandon the faith nextweek.
Such presumption is not part of the Gospel and undermines virtues like Hope, rather as Catholicism teaches we have a conditional assurance, we can recognize we have been forgiven and through prayer and charity grow in that conviction, however as long as we live we are never totally safe.

Any Calvinist saying that forgets that the elect =/= the visible church. Those who worship on a Sunday in church won’t be saved if they are not justified by Christ - many who seem to be non-elect, may well be elect even so. This is Calvinism 101.​

I never disagreed regarding those who “appear” “non-elect”, we dont know their final outcome. My issue is regarding the professing Christians, most notably the pastor himself, they believe they are out of danger forever.

Christians can’t be damned; that would mean that God is a liar or faithless or a joker - professing Christians can be because profession is no proof of saving faith. That is why election, godly living, and so much more, have to come together: mere profession in words is worthless.

Thats what Im dealing with what you call “professing Christians”, at no time does one say they are surely going to avoid hell.

To say that Christians, at peace with God, are as damnable after justification as before, makes the Atonement a hollow mockery. It makes Christ & His Work totally effectless. But in fact, their sinfulness has been executed, so it cannot damn them.

Your taking things too far, just because someone at time one feels themself “at peace with God” doesnt mean a future time they wont sin grave sin and even die in grave sin. What is a hollow mockery is professing that getting to Heaven is a cakewalk because one is “at peace with God”.

There is no reprobation left for the Christian, because “there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8.1) - Christ has borne it for us on the Cross, by becoming sin for us, & by becoming a curse for us: both of those terms are straight from St.Paul - they are blasphemous (as is so much else about Our Lord) & they are true. Calvin, to his credit, doesn’t shy away from them. So only those have access to damnation who are not in Christ.

St Paul talks all the time how the game has just begun, its a race and only those who finish get the prize, those who sin grave sins are considered fallen and apart from repenting they are disqualified. At no time did Paul teach hell was something for only unbelievers.

Christ is King: we can accept his offer of pardon now - or feel His unbearable anger hereafter. It is St. John who shows us this anger, in Rev. 6. And if we have his pardon, we have to stop insisting that he treat us as the rebels & traitors that we are; His pardon is a full pardon, sealed & signed in His own Blood; it makes no exception for any sin, but is the pardon for all sins. The only way to ensure one cannot receive it, is to reject it. And criminals are in no position to dictate terms - they must accept those their King offers, or continue as rebels. ##

I agree we can chose to accept His offer, but His offer is not a cakewalk. His offer is that we deny ourself and follow Him daily and obey His Commandments.

And there is a problem because…?​

Because they teach Heaven is a guarantee for anyone who thinks themself saved, the explicitly teach it is an infallible certainty, even when they find themself in grave sin.

 

[Vigis]

Okay most Protestant Churches believe in the existance of Hell and in the same way Catholics do on basic terms. I know that the Unitarians do not believe in a Hell, but I would hardly call them Christian myself. The Methodist, Baptist, Penecostal, Anglican, Wesleyians, and many others believe in the existance of Hell. The founding fathers of Protestantism ,for the most part for I do not know about all of them, believed in the same concept of Hell on basics as the Catholics did. God speed.

 

[Writer]

Hearing it preached and believing in its reality for disobedient Christians are two different things. I have heard it preached in protestant circles as well, but almost never have I heard that their actions will be judged.

I think you’re thinking of Calvinists who beleive in predestination or actually more correctly heretical predestnarianism. I wouldn’t lump them all in a single category. If you speak to a member of a Weslyian denomination–for instance, Nazarene or Free Methodist–they will have a different take on the issue. I suggest you try to understand some of the differences in the Protestant denominations a little more clearly, because you’re generalizing (and judging) the faiths of people you neither know nor understand…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I think you’re thinking of Calvinists who beleive in predestination or actually more correctly heretical predestnarianism. I wouldn’t lump them all in a single category. If you speak to a member of a Weslyian denomination–for instance, Nazarene or Free Methodist–they will have a different take on the issue. I suggest you try to understand some of the differences in the Protestant denominations a little more clearly, because you’re generalizing (and judging) the faiths of people you neither know nor understand…

Good point, after thinking about this thread I clearly did overgeneralize as a couple Catholics have already pointed out, especially in regards to the Weslyan branch of Protestantism which I didnt have in mind when I made this.