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J
Jadesfire20
Guest
Iohannes said:
:bounce:
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Iohannes
Guest
Unfortunately, the Bishop of Orange is not a fan of Latin Masses(Novus Ordo or Traditional).
St. Michael’s Abbey and St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach(Used to have a TLM until the bishop cancelled it) both have great Latin Novus Ordo Masses.
Mission San Juan Capristrano Serra Chapel still has the Traditional Latin Mass on Sundays at 8 AM.
St. Michael’s Abbey and St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach(Used to have a TLM until the bishop cancelled it) both have great Latin Novus Ordo Masses.
Mission San Juan Capristrano Serra Chapel still has the Traditional Latin Mass on Sundays at 8 AM.
K
katherine2
Guest
a good remidner that all was not so liturgically wonderful in 1940.
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Iohannes
Guest
Americans tend to have a Low Mass mentality and it is true today. Read the Book called Why Can’t Catholics Sing.
It was much better in the 1940’s than it is today. At least you did not have to deal with modernist, liturgical dancers, priest ad-libing(I know of a priest who replaces “disciplies” with “friends”, lifeteen, rock and roll?
I wonder where all the Latin and Gregorian chant that Vatican II said we should place pride in?
It is worse today, where are all the chants and Sung Masses,(sung i mean in chanting)?
K
katherine2
Guest
Sweetheart, I was there in the 1940’s I know. It wasn’t all so wonderful.
F
Franciscum
Guest
I found the following information on this website. It seems most appropriate for this discussion:
"Following is a wonderful letter from taken from the July-August 2004 issue of Adoremus Bulletin:
The Old Mass
"Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.
Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.
In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.
Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.
Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.
Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”
Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)
Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"
It’s so refreshing to see a cleric with such a clear view of things… Ref. adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html "
"Following is a wonderful letter from taken from the July-August 2004 issue of Adoremus Bulletin:
The Old Mass
"Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.
Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.
In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.
Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.
Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.
Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”
Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)
Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"
It’s so refreshing to see a cleric with such a clear view of things… Ref. adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html "
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Iohannes
Guest
I know a lot people to from that era too. Of course, the low Mass mentality is partly responsible for the liturgical mess today. If the Americans listened to him, maybe we would not have lifeteen Masses. Should be just ignore today what the Fr. said like in the 1940’s? What he said in the 1940’s should be applied NOW.
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Joanne_ca
Guest
I was there in the 1950’s and it was wonderful then as TLM is today. I’ve missed it since they took it away from us and I’m so thankful I have the opportunity to attend again. Thank you Pope John Paul ll.
D
Deacon_Ed
Guest
Just some not-so-random thoughts…
People attending the TLM today do so because they want to be there. As a result, the Mass is celebrated in a more reverent fashion, and people get more out of the Mass. This was not the norm in the 50s (I was there).
People attending the Mass of Paul VI today are doing exactly what they did when they attended the TLM in the 50s – they are there, but most do not participate. As a result, the Masses are not as spirit-filled as they could be.
This is a way of saying that the TLM in the 50s was no as spirit-filled as it is today because the participation has changed. There is no difference between the experience of the average Mass-goer today from that of, say, 1955.
People who find the TLM to be spiritually uplifting will tend to return, and they will put more into the Mass than those who simply go out od a sense of obligation (“gonna go to hell if I don’t…”). People who find the Mass of Paul VI spiritually uplifting (and there are millions who do) do so because they are prepared and participate in the Mass.
The TLM is not a magic bullet (every single priest or bishop who worked on the Mass of Paul VI was raised with and celebrated the TLM – think about it!).
Deacon Ed
People attending the TLM today do so because they want to be there. As a result, the Mass is celebrated in a more reverent fashion, and people get more out of the Mass. This was not the norm in the 50s (I was there).
People attending the Mass of Paul VI today are doing exactly what they did when they attended the TLM in the 50s – they are there, but most do not participate. As a result, the Masses are not as spirit-filled as they could be.
This is a way of saying that the TLM in the 50s was no as spirit-filled as it is today because the participation has changed. There is no difference between the experience of the average Mass-goer today from that of, say, 1955.
People who find the TLM to be spiritually uplifting will tend to return, and they will put more into the Mass than those who simply go out od a sense of obligation (“gonna go to hell if I don’t…”). People who find the Mass of Paul VI spiritually uplifting (and there are millions who do) do so because they are prepared and participate in the Mass.
The TLM is not a magic bullet (every single priest or bishop who worked on the Mass of Paul VI was raised with and celebrated the TLM – think about it!).
Deacon Ed
F
Franciscum
Guest
Deacon Ed:
You got that right.
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Iohannes
Guest
Well, when can we start putting pride in Gregorian Chants and Latin like what Vatican II said?
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
In my parish we use a little Gregorian chant. When I am doing the Penitential Rite I always use Greek (Kyrie elison) and always use the Latin dismissal at the end of Mass during the Easter season.
The selection of music needs to consider the congregation and its degree of musical sophistication as well as the abilities of the choir. The major problem with Gregorian chant is that it is designed for the choir to sing to the congregation. This is fine for communion mediation pieces, but does not work well for congregational singing.
BTW, we generally use Psalm tone 8 for our chanted psalms since that is easy for the congregation to follow.
Deacon Ed
The selection of music needs to consider the congregation and its degree of musical sophistication as well as the abilities of the choir. The major problem with Gregorian chant is that it is designed for the choir to sing to the congregation. This is fine for communion mediation pieces, but does not work well for congregational singing.
BTW, we generally use Psalm tone 8 for our chanted psalms since that is easy for the congregation to follow.
Deacon Ed
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OrthoCath
Guest
The TLM is the MAGIC BULLET that will fix all the problems in the world!
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bear06
Guest
If that’s true, why didn’t it fix all of the problems in the world before Vatican II. History - it’s a good thing to learn and not ignore!
P
puzzleannie
Guest
I’m sorry, I was distracted by all the mermaid saints, now what were we discussing? I grew up with the Latin Mass, leanred all prayers in Latin for 1st communion, used a missal since 4th grade, remember the kefoffle when missalettes were introduced (my dad nearly had a stroke), and the pain of rapid, unexplained, random changes in the liturgy in the 60s, where every week you dreaded coming to Church for fear of what else would disappear or change.
The long years of wishing for at least one hymn you could sing, of going into a new church and searching in vain for the tabernacle and the red light. The bewilderment of old people who knew they should be kneeling to receive communion, but being prevented from doing so by the removal of the communion rails. The extreme and sometimes deliberate offenses against charity in the way changes were implemented, and the triumphalism of the “reformers”. the longing for Gregorian chant instead of the badly written and badly performed folk songs of the dark ages from 1965 to 1980.
Still as a catechist I am glad Mass is in English and Spanish so I can better teach the beauty and meaning of the prayers and responses, and that participation of the faithful is so much more emphasized.
The long years of wishing for at least one hymn you could sing, of going into a new church and searching in vain for the tabernacle and the red light. The bewilderment of old people who knew they should be kneeling to receive communion, but being prevented from doing so by the removal of the communion rails. The extreme and sometimes deliberate offenses against charity in the way changes were implemented, and the triumphalism of the “reformers”. the longing for Gregorian chant instead of the badly written and badly performed folk songs of the dark ages from 1965 to 1980.
Still as a catechist I am glad Mass is in English and Spanish so I can better teach the beauty and meaning of the prayers and responses, and that participation of the faithful is so much more emphasized.
F
Franciscum
Guest
Deacon Ed:
Since when does a deacon choose the form of the Penitential Rite? Are you also your parish’s “liturgist?”
M
marcus29
Guest
This book writen by Dom Alcuin Reid is not in favor of the novus ordo, as some here seem to think. Rather, it is a book written by a traditionalist and praised by the likes of Michael Davies who states:
“Dom Alcuin Reid has put every Catholic who loves tradition greatly in his debt. …(this book) should definitely be in the library of every Catholic, clerical or lay, who loves the Mass so rightly described by Father Frederick Faber as “the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven””
“Dom Alcuin’s latest work, certainly his magnum opus… places him among the formost liturgical authorities in the English speaking world.”
(quotes from The Latin Mass magazine)
so you should not be lead to a false impression that traditionalists will not criticize or critique their own side of this liturgical argument.
“Dom Alcuin Reid has put every Catholic who loves tradition greatly in his debt. …(this book) should definitely be in the library of every Catholic, clerical or lay, who loves the Mass so rightly described by Father Frederick Faber as “the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven””
“Dom Alcuin’s latest work, certainly his magnum opus… places him among the formost liturgical authorities in the English speaking world.”
(quotes from The Latin Mass magazine)
so you should not be lead to a false impression that traditionalists will not criticize or critique their own side of this liturgical argument.
D
Deacon_Ed
Guest
To answer your last question first, yes. If you look at the options for the penitential rite you will see that option C is led by the priest or other suitable minister. The deacon is, normally, the “other suitable minister.” The priest chooses whether or not this form will be used. My Latin bishop *always *uses this form and has the deacon do it.
Deacon Ed
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Some of the canons regular of Saint Michael’s Abbey say the True–I mean, Tridentine!–Mass privately. For example: Father Victor, who was/is a disciple of Father Phillips, founder/superior of the Society of Saint John Cantius. Father Thomas Nelson of the same Abbey is an official spiritual director for the Society; he’s a really awesome, really holy man! I had the privilege meeting both priests during my Cantian postulancy.
When the priests of Saint Michael’s offer the Traditional Mass, they even do so wearing white birettas!
Pretty cool, huh?
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