The REAL liturgical movement

[katherine2]

puzzleannie:

I’m sorry, I was distracted by all the mermaid saints, now what were we discussing? I grew up with the Latin Mass, leanred all prayers in Latin for 1st communion, used a missal since 4th grade, remember the kefoffle when missalettes were introduced (my dad nearly had a stroke), and the pain of rapid, unexplained, random changes in the liturgy in the 60s, where every week you dreaded coming to Church for fear of what else would disappear or change.

Oh, you little child!!!

Come here and talk to a real old lady. The bilingual Missal, my dear, is a dissenting liberal innovation. It was banned until the 20th century though around 1880 a lot of liberal Germans started putting them out in disobedience to the Church. In the early 20th century the Church accomodated the dissenters and reluctantly permitted them. However, I still remember as a girl that carrying a missal (rather than a prayer book with one’s private devotions) to Mass marked you as one of those “progressive” Catholics.

 

[Franciscum]

Deacon Ed:

To answer your last question first, yes. If you look at the options for the penitential rite you will see that option C is led by the priest or other suitable minister. The deacon is, normally, the “other suitable minister.” The priest chooses whether or not this form will be used. My Latin bishop *always *uses this form and has the deacon do it.

Deacon Ed

It dosen’t readily appear to me that a deacon would be suitable to lead the penitential rite. A deacon certainly would not be preferrable.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Franciscum:

It dosen’t readily appear to me that a deacon would be suitable to lead the penitential rite. A deacon certainly would not be preferrable.

Sorry, the Church, via the rubrcs, has said otherwise. Of course, the prayer at the end of the penitential rite belongs to the priest, not the deacon. Because a deacon is ordained he takes precendence over the non-ordained (cantors, lectors, etc.) and thus he is the preferred “other suitable minister” for form C of the penitential rite.

Deacon Ed

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Saint Murgen the Mermaid, pray for us!

 

[Franciscum]

Deacon Ed:

Sorry, the Church, via the rubrcs, has said otherwise. Of course, the prayer at the end of the penitential rite belongs to the priest, not the deacon. Because a deacon is ordained he takes precendence over the non-ordained (cantors, lectors, etc.) and thus he is the preferred “other suitable minister” for form C of the penitential rite.

Deacon Ed

Unfortunately your interpretation of the rubrics appears deeply flawed. The penitential rite belongs to the celebrant and perhaps concelebrant(s.)

 

[katherine2]

Franciscum:

Unfortunately your interpretation of the rubrics appears deeply flawed. The penitential rite belongs to the celebrant and perhaps concelebrant(s.)

wrong, but thank you for playing our game.

 

[space_ghost]

the real liturgical movement…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

wait a minute… what was the question…

my apologies…

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Franciscum:

Unfortunately your interpretation of the rubrics appears deeply flawed. The penitential rite belongs to the celebrant and perhaps concelebrant(s.)

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. It does not happen to be that of the Church.

Deacon Ed

 

[Franciscum]

Deacon Ed:

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. It does not happen to be that of the Church.

Deacon Ed

So you say. Unfortunately you are mistaken.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Franciscum:

So you say. Unfortunately you are mistaken.

On what do you base this claim? The reason I ask is that the *rubrics *specify that this is done by another suitable minister (not by another priest). My bishop always has the deacon do this. You seem to be saying that every bishop who asks his deacon to do form C is mistaken (and most bishops do). I’m rather surprised that you know so much more than do the bishops and those of us who have spent years studying liturgy.

Deacon Ed

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

No one else but me thinks it’s, like, so cool that the Norbertines wear white birettas when celebrating the Tridentine Mass?!

Maybe I should get a girlfriend . . .

 

[Franciscum]

Deacon Ed:

On what do you base this claim? The reason I ask is that the *rubrics *specify that this is done by another suitable minister (not by another priest). My bishop always has the deacon do this. You seem to be saying that every bishop who asks his deacon to do form C is mistaken (and most bishops do). I’m rather surprised that you know so much more than do the bishops and those of us who have spent years studying liturgy.

Deacon Ed

I base it on the Sacramentary.

Under the Penitential Rite, option “C” it states:

“The priest (or other suitable minister) makes the following or other invocation:”

You suggest this does not mean a concelebrating priest, nor does it mean a lay minister that is subordinate to a deacon.

I suggest it dosen’t mean a deacon (and certainly not a lay minister either.) It would be most appropriate for the actual celebrant (be it a priest or bishop) to make this invocation. If that cannot be realized (for God only knows what reason) then perhaps a concelebrant would be most appropriate.

Either way it would be extremely tacky for the celebrant to off-load the making of this invocation.

Finally, your arrogant closing reminds me of your idea of diluting and then dumping the Precious Blood for which you couldn’t even provide a credible source…

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Finally, your arrogant closing reminds me of your idea of diluting and then dumping the Precious Blood for which you couldn’t even provide a credible source…

You really are a jerk.

The text says “or other suitable minister,” and this could very easily be a deacon. Unless you have an authoritative source that says otherwise, and not your own personal opinion, I’d shut up and show an ordained minister of the Church the respect he is due.

The good Deacon has shown himself to be ten times the man you are. When he was given correction regarding disposal of the Precious Blood, he quickly and humbly repented of his error, and did so publicly on the forum for all to read.

Would that you had the same tact and humility.

The way so many of you disrespect the clergy, and publicly, and to them personally! Like I said before to another poster, you’re lucky you’re not in the same room with me, in person, when you talk that way to them. Very lucky . . .

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

And now that I think about it, you don’t even need an ordained minister to intone the Kyrie at all! A cantor or a choir can do it, with the congregation repeating the invocation.

Also, are you familiar with the Church’s Diaconale: Chants for the Deacon at Mass? Here’s the description:

Designed primarily as a rehearsal tool, this recently published book supports the deacon in his preparations to assist at Mass. A collection of those parts of the Mass that a deacon sings, it includes a sample formula for adding invocations to the Kyrie in Form C of the Penitential Rite, a sample Gospel along with its introductory and concluding sentences, sample formulas for the General Intercessions, the invitation to extend the Sign of Peace, the invitation to bow for the Solemn Blessing, and the Dismissal.

An appendix offers general principles for intoning the Gospel, compiled from the Missa Cantata. In order to familiarise the deacon with the flow and order of the chants, each of the intonations is placed within the context of its surrounding chants.

Doesn’t sound tacky at all to me. Sounds rather traditional, actually . . .

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Franciscum:

I base it on the Sacramentary.

Under the Penitential Rite, option “C” it states:

“The priest (or other suitable minister) makes the following or other invocation:”

You suggest this does not mean a concelebrating priest, nor does it mean a lay minister that is subordinate to a deacon.

I suggest it dosen’t mean a deacon (and certainly not a lay minister either.) It would be most appropriate for the actual celebrant (be it a priest or bishop) to make this invocation. If that cannot be realized (for God only knows what reason) then perhaps a concelebrant would be most appropriate.

Either way it would be extremely tacky for the celebrant to off-load the making of this invocation.

Finally, your arrogant closing reminds me of your idea of diluting and then dumping the Precious Blood for which you couldn’t even provide a credible source…

So, what you are saying is that your authority for this argument is your own personal opinion about what this means.

You have also misinterpreted my statements. Form C of the Penitential Rite is introduced by the priest (“My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves…”), the the priest, deacon, cantor or lector (these are the “other appropriate minister(s)”) make the invocations (and this is one of the places where the Church permits the minister to use the actual words or to make up invocations) and the priest concludes with the final prayer (May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.")

I suspect you are basing your argument upon the mistaken idea that this is a type of absolution. It is not.

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance.

Nevertheless, I find it strange that you accuse me of “arrogance” when you base your entire argument on your understanding of the rubrics rather than accept the word of one who has been doing this for nearly 10 years as a deacon, and who has worked extensively with liturgy for nearly 30 years.

Deacon Ed

 

[albert_cipriani]

Hey Deacon Ed,
I’m Baack! And I see you’re causing trouble again. As Austin Powers would say, “Now behave!”

Seriously, you are the most behaved person in these parts. I’m with DV on this one. Anyone who wants to mess with you needs to mess with me too. We’ll cross swords over other issues I’m sure, but you have my support on this one.

Now, in keeping with the Rodney King school of theology, “Can’t we just all get along?” – Cheers, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic