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Katholikos
Guest
This thread is bumped up for LutheranStudent and others who may have an interest in the subject of Luther.
Jay (Katholikos)
Jay (Katholikos)
- Status
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Malachi4U
Guest
What do you mean by “bumped up”?
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rjs1
Guest
Oops, sorry. There are not 30,000 separate denominations apparrently, only several thousand. Several thousand denominations who disagree with each other on: divorce, abortion, homosexuality, how many sacraments, no sacraments at all, divorce under some conditions, divorce under any conditions, infant baptism, adult only baptism , no water baptism, baptism in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues as a necessary gift, speaking in tongues as an optional gift, Jesus present with the bread and wine at Communion, Jesus not present at Communion, no Communion at all, ministers to lead the congregation, no ordained ministry at all, ETC. ETC. ETC.
The list goes on and on and on. And don’t pretend that these disagreements are about minor matters - they are about major matters and matters that effect the very life and death decisions people have to make.
The Protestant faiths (not faith) are in a complete mess. They disagree on every single doctrinal and moral issue you can think of. Just take ANY of the issues I list above, or any other you can think of, then examine the official teachings of the thousands of Protestant denominations and you will find every option possible is believed and taught.
Jesus gave us one holy Catholic and apostolic Church to teach and transmit the faith. When people choose to leave it they become their own little gods and have no method at all of determining which interpretation of Scripture is correct. Please don’t tell me that the Holy Spirit will guide the individual into the correct interpretation of Scripture. This is exactly the arguement used by the leaders of the thousands of Protestant denominations and look at the result, an absolute smorgasboard of continually changing beliefs!
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church into all truth and that is exactly what the Spirit has done for two thousand years.
The results of Luther’s Reformation speak for themselves.
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Eden
Guest
The link that was provided to you is an article by Eric Svendsen. He is an Evangelical who writes anti-Catholic books. He also claims to be an “ex-Catholic”. He is not an unbiased source. I would research this further. By the way, here’s my reaction to “only several thousand”:
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Mickey
Guest
Yes, Eden is correct. Eric is one of the “professional” anti-Catholics. Be watchful!The link that was provided to you is an article by Eric Svendsen. He is an Evangelical who writes anti-Catholic books. He also claims to be an “ex-Catholic”. He is not an unbiased source. I would research this further. By the way, here’s my reaction to “only several thousand”:
C
Contarini
Guest
Panis Angelicas:
Edwin
This is certainly one of Luther’s least creditable moments. But I see no reason to think that he knew he was wrong. Covering something up because of “unpleasantness” doesn’t necessarily indicate consciousness of guilt. Luther thought that there were good reasons to allow bigamy in that case, but he knew that most people wouldn’t agree. The idea that one should be discreed about possible scandals is hardly alien to Catholicism.So, this website belongs to Concordia University. Pretty impressive researching!
I cannot understand how such intelligent people can see all the deceptive maneuvering of Luther to cover up his signing of the document granting Philip a dispensation to take a second wife, yet still think of him as a great leader.
Then again, I could never figure out how so many so-called Christians could support Bill Clinton, either.
These quotes were proof to me that Luther knew his actions were wrong, even though he wouldn’t admit it:
"I am not ashamed of my counsel, even if it should be published in all the world, but for the sake of the unpleasantness which would then follow, I should prefer, if possible, to have it kept secret." (Smith, pp. 377-9; from Seidemann: Lauterbach’s Tagebuch auf das Jahr 1538, p.196 ff. On dating see Rockwell, p. 137, note 3.)
"Is it not a good plan to say that the bigamy had been discussed and should not Philip say that he had indeed debated the matter, but had not yet come to a decision? All else must be kept quiet. What is it, if for the good and sake of the Christian church, one should tell a good strong lie?" (Smith, p.381; see also Lenz, p.373)
When noblemen began to suspect and question the bigamous relationship, Luther gave this advice to Philip: "It is better to leave them in uncertainty and let them stumble around for proof which they can never get, for a mere copy of a letter would not be proof… Why don’t the coarse, inconsiderate people keep quiet when they know we want them to? God bless you. Amen…(Smith, p. 383; see also Lenz, p.389)
The Life and Letters of Martin Luther, Preserved Smith (Houghton Mifflin, Boston, 1911)
He even promised to lie, if asked, and claim that the matter was “confessional” in nature, therefore he couldn’t comment; all the while, covering his own involvement in the matter. Purdy clever.
Edwin
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TertiumQuid
Guest
A popular quote from Luther floating around cyber-space is:
This quote is taken from Father Patrick O’Hare’s book, The Facts About Luther, page 329-330. Here is a larger context of what Father O’Hare says,
It is true Luther allowed for polygamy, but only in a very narrow sense. Luther scholar Heinrich Boehmer points out that it was only to be in cases of “*severe necessity, for instance, if the wife develops leprosy or becomes otherwise unfit to live with her husband… But this permission is always to be restricted to such cases as severe necessity. The idea of legalizing general polygamy was far from the reformers mind. Monogamy was always to him the regular form of matrimony…” * (Luther And The Reformation in Light of Modern Research, 213-214).
James Swan
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TertiumQuid
Guest
Most often, Luther detractors point out Luther’s involvement in the bigamy of Phillip of Hesse. Of course, Luther got himself into a mess here. Roland Bainton explains,
Regards, James Swan
Note Luther’s final comment, “that if anyone thereafter should practice bigamy, let the Devil give him a bath in the abyss of hell.” A profound aspect of the Bible is its commitment to telling us about the sins of the human condition; even in those characters considered the greatest of God’s people. David was described as “a man after God’s own heart,” yet within his life one finds adultery and murder. Jesus called Peter “blessed,” yet not long after, Peter denied that he even knew him. Examples could be multiplied, and could go beyond the pages of Scripture into the halls of church history. God’s people struggle with sin, and sometimes take great falls. Such is the case of Martin Luther. Considered to be one of the greatest men in church history, a survey of his life shows many high peaks and some deep valleys: profound success for God’s kingdom, along with human failure. With Luther’s attitude on Bigamy, and his involvement with Phillip of Hesse, we see one of the warts of Luther. Luther had to learn the hard way with his attitude on Bigamy.
Regards, James Swan
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Mickey
Guest
That’s a great line!
How very true.
Now don’t get angry James. I’m not picking on you again, but is this your opinion? I could agree that Martin is one of the most well known figures in church history–but greatest? Profound success for God’s kingdom? It’s all relative! I say that he started a ripple effect that turned into a geometric progression of endless divisions. I could name at least 500 church fathers greater than this man. But then that is my opinion.
God Bless,
Mickey
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Eden
Guest
Hey! When I googled “Luther” “greatest men in church history”, I found a site that actually supports James Swan’s claim that Luther was one of the greatest men in church history. Only one came up but here it is:
ntrmin.org/Armstrong%20and%20Bainton%201.htm
Mickey, Luther was great. He was the “Great Deformer”.
ntrmin.org/Armstrong%20and%20Bainton%201.htm
Mickey, Luther was great. He was the “Great Deformer”.
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TertiumQuid
Guest
three things:Hey! When I googled “Luther” “greatest men in church history”, I found a site that actually supports James Swan’s claim that Luther was one of the greatest men in church history. Only one came up but here it is:ntrmin.org/Armstrong%20and%20Bainton%201.htm
Mickey, Luther was great. He was the “Great Deformer”.
- Thank you for posting one of my links.
- You are reading my words quite selectively. Note, I was critical of Luther (which you chastised me for not being on the other thread- please make up your mind).
Catholic historian Joseph Lortz:
"It sounds banal, but cannot be left unsaid: Luther belongs in the first rank of men with extraordinary intellectual creativity. He is in the full sense a genius, a man of massive power in things religious and a giant as well in theological interpretation. Because of this, he has in many respects shaped the history of the world–even of our world today.”
Regards,
James Swan
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Mickey
Guest
Hi Eden,Hey! When I googled “Luther” “greatest men in church history”, I found a site that actually supports James Swan’s claim that Luther was one of the greatest men in church history. Only one came up but here it is:
ntrmin.org/Armstrong%20and%20Bainton%201.htm
Mickey, Luther was great. He was the “Great Deformer”.
…And for your reading pleasure, here is Dave’s response to Mr. Swan’s criticisms. An exellent and accurate response if I may say so myself.
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004_09_19_socrates58_archive.html#109565887738138340
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Mickey
Guest
I don’t doubt for a second that Joseph Lortz said this. Lortz was an extremely ecumenical German orthodox Catholic who was very fair to the protestant point of view. And I agree with him. Luther was extremely intelligent and creative. Luther was a gifted theologian. And yes, he most definitely reshaped history. What Lortz’ quote doesn’t say, is that Luther was one of the greatest men in church history. And he doesn’t say that Luther’s works were a profound success for God’s kingdom. Those are James Swan’s words and opinions.
BTW–reshaping history can also mean deforming it! (that was for you Eden).
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Eden
Guest
Sorry James. I couldn’t resist the temptation to have a little fun! “Lead us not into temptation…” That honestly was the only result to come up. I did notice that you criticized Luther as well as compliment him and I give you credit for that.
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Eden
Guest
Luther also said, “Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.”
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Eden
Guest
No, I’m just kidding that was Oscar Wilde. I needed a break from Luther for a minute!
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Mickey
Guest
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Eden
Guest
Mickey said:
:tiphat:
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Philthy
Guest
Hi CM
Ive followed your posts and found them interesting. I commend you on doing your level best to keep the discussion dispassionate. Before I comment further let me assure you that I in no way judge you - although I am Catholic, I also attend an Efree church with my wife and I play on the worship team, active in bible study, etc. and I truly believe that That which unites us is greater than that which divides us.
However, this topic of 30,000 denominations seems to bother you - No? It should. Is it the number 30,000 that you disagree with, or the concept of thousands of separate versions of the Christian faith? The number of denominations that one arrives at is simply a function of the definition of a denomination - which Scripture didn’t bother to define for us. Would it matter if the number was 500, 100,or even 10? Not really - there is only one Faith. Fortunately Protestants recognize this. Unfortunately their solution to it is to pretend the division doesn’t exist and to all “unite” under the banner of “Evangelicalism” with the 5 Solas as their common denominator and all other disagreements relegated to the fabricated area of “debateable or non-essential elements of the faith”. Have you ever read Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology (Zondervan)? I have. Cover to cover. It’s a great read, but it’s mind boggling to a Catholic to see how many times over FUNDAMENTAL issues of the Faith that Grudem prefaces his discussion with “even among Evangelical Christians there is considerable diversity of opinion…” or some similar statement. We’re not talking about nuances of the meaning of predestination, we’re talkin’ basics like, Is baptism necessary? What exactly is baptism? What is the Lord’s supper? Can salvation be lost? and on and on. Im sorry CM, but that is not unity of faith. And agreeing to disagree is charitable act, but it does not make the disagreement disappear.
Back to Luther: Let the man speak for himself. You will find both a devoted Christian and a man apparently tormented and cast about by worldly forces greater than his ability to control them. the first is my favorite and most ironic - this is the man we would all love to applaud. The rest are the uglier side…
Phil
“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity… It is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better."
“Christ was an adulterer for the first time with the woman at the well, for it was said, “Nobody knows what he’s doing with her”. Again, with Magdalene, and still again with the adulterous woman in John 8 <:2-11>, whom he let off so easily. So the good Christ had to become an adulterer before he died.”(Luther’s Works, American Edition, Volume 54, p 154)
Martin Luther: "Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. “‘Faith justifies’ and ‘faith does not justify’ contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor’s hood and let him call me a fool.”
Regarding the book of James, which says we are not justified by faith alone, Luther said: "[the book of James is] “an epistle of straw.” “I do not hold it” he declared, “to be his writing, and I cannot place it among the capital books” (The facts about Luther, page 203). “I maintain that some Jew wrote it, who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any.” "We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]…
Regarding the book of Hebrews, Luther wrote: "The fact that Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two.… “It need not surprise one to find here, bits of wood, hay, and stubble (The Facts about Luther pg. 203).”
The apocalypse (Revelation): “There are many things objectionable in this book. To my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his or her own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it” (Martin Luther).
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Philthy
Guest
He’s not finished yet…
Regarding his own spiritual life, Luther wrote:
“I confess, and many others could undoubtedly make an equal confession, that** I am now more negligent than I was under the Pope: and there is** now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was formerly seen among monks and priests” (Walch,XI.1311).
“I find myself here” proclaimed Luther on the day of his ex-communication, “insensate and hardened, established in idleness. Oh, woe! Praying little, and ceasing to moan for the Church of God, because my untamed flesh burns in great flames. In short, I, who should have the fervor of the spirit, have the fervor of the flesh, of licentiousness, sloth, idleness, and somnolence” (Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken, II, p.22).
Luther: “I burn " said Luther " with a thousand flames in my unsubdued flesh: I feel myself carried on with a rage towards women that approached madness. I, who ought to be fervent in spirit, am only fervent in impurity” (Table Talk). “But there were also false prophets among the people… Having eyes full of adultery and full of sin that ceaseth not.”
Luther on polygamy: “I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture” (De Wette II, 459).
The fruits of his so called "reformation":
“This one will not hear of Baptism, that one denies the Sacraments, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are about as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No Yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” (M. Luther, De Wette III,61).
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul” said Luther " they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers" (M. Luther, Walch XIV, 1360).
“There is no smearer but whenever he has heard a sermon or can read a chapter in German, makes a doctor of himself, and crowns his ***, convincing himself that he knows everything better than all who teach him” (M. Luther, Walch V.1652).
“How many doctors have I made by preaching and writing” asked Luther in frustration “Now they say, Be off with you. Go off with you. Go to the devil. Thus it must be. When we preach they laugh. …when we get angry and threaten them, they mock us, snap their fingers at us and laugh in their sleeves” (M. Luther, Walch VII.2310).
“When we have heard or learned a few things about Holy Scripture” admitted Luther “we think we are already doctors and have swallowed the Holy Ghost, feathers and all” (M. Luther, Walch V.472).
Luther: “After we understood that good works are not necessary for justification, I became much more remiss and cold in doing good… and if we could return now to the old state of things and if the doctrine of the necessity of good works to be holy could be revived, our alacrity and promptness in doing good would be different” (M. Luther Werke, XXVII, p. 443).
Luther: “The Gospel today [Luther’s Gospel of faith alone] finds adherents who are convinced that it is nothing but a doctrine that serves to fill their bellies and give free reign to all their impulses” (M. Luther, Werke, XXXII, p. 2)
“Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation’s of ex-communications and spiritual penalties the people have learned to despise the word of God. They are no longer for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God… I would wish, if it were possible, to leave these men without a preacher or pastor” complained Luther in utter frustration "and let them live like swine. There is no longer any fear or love of God among them. After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. (Walch ed.)
What Luther really believed: “There is no religion in the world that teaches this doctrine of justification [ie faith alone]: I myself, although I teach it publicly, have a great difficulty believing it privately” (Werke, XXV, p. 330).
“With how much pain and labor did I scarcely justify my conscience that I alone should proceed against the Pope, hold him for Antichrist and the bishops for his apostles. How often did my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument 'Art thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for so long a time?” (De Wette 2-107).
Luther’s prophecy: “There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everybody will be his own rabbi: hence the greatest scandals” (Lauterb. 91).
And finally his conclusion: “If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to preach the Gospel” (Walch, VI,920).
Regarding his own spiritual life, Luther wrote:
“I confess, and many others could undoubtedly make an equal confession, that** I am now more negligent than I was under the Pope: and there is** now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was formerly seen among monks and priests” (Walch,XI.1311).
“I find myself here” proclaimed Luther on the day of his ex-communication, “insensate and hardened, established in idleness. Oh, woe! Praying little, and ceasing to moan for the Church of God, because my untamed flesh burns in great flames. In short, I, who should have the fervor of the spirit, have the fervor of the flesh, of licentiousness, sloth, idleness, and somnolence” (Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken, II, p.22).
Luther: “I burn " said Luther " with a thousand flames in my unsubdued flesh: I feel myself carried on with a rage towards women that approached madness. I, who ought to be fervent in spirit, am only fervent in impurity” (Table Talk). “But there were also false prophets among the people… Having eyes full of adultery and full of sin that ceaseth not.”
Luther on polygamy: “I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture” (De Wette II, 459).
The fruits of his so called "reformation":
“This one will not hear of Baptism, that one denies the Sacraments, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are about as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No Yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” (M. Luther, De Wette III,61).
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul” said Luther " they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers" (M. Luther, Walch XIV, 1360).
“There is no smearer but whenever he has heard a sermon or can read a chapter in German, makes a doctor of himself, and crowns his ***, convincing himself that he knows everything better than all who teach him” (M. Luther, Walch V.1652).
“How many doctors have I made by preaching and writing” asked Luther in frustration “Now they say, Be off with you. Go off with you. Go to the devil. Thus it must be. When we preach they laugh. …when we get angry and threaten them, they mock us, snap their fingers at us and laugh in their sleeves” (M. Luther, Walch VII.2310).
“When we have heard or learned a few things about Holy Scripture” admitted Luther “we think we are already doctors and have swallowed the Holy Ghost, feathers and all” (M. Luther, Walch V.472).
Luther: “After we understood that good works are not necessary for justification, I became much more remiss and cold in doing good… and if we could return now to the old state of things and if the doctrine of the necessity of good works to be holy could be revived, our alacrity and promptness in doing good would be different” (M. Luther Werke, XXVII, p. 443).
Luther: “The Gospel today [Luther’s Gospel of faith alone] finds adherents who are convinced that it is nothing but a doctrine that serves to fill their bellies and give free reign to all their impulses” (M. Luther, Werke, XXXII, p. 2)
“Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation’s of ex-communications and spiritual penalties the people have learned to despise the word of God. They are no longer for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God… I would wish, if it were possible, to leave these men without a preacher or pastor” complained Luther in utter frustration "and let them live like swine. There is no longer any fear or love of God among them. After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. (Walch ed.)
What Luther really believed: “There is no religion in the world that teaches this doctrine of justification [ie faith alone]: I myself, although I teach it publicly, have a great difficulty believing it privately” (Werke, XXV, p. 330).
“With how much pain and labor did I scarcely justify my conscience that I alone should proceed against the Pope, hold him for Antichrist and the bishops for his apostles. How often did my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument 'Art thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for so long a time?” (De Wette 2-107).
Luther’s prophecy: “There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everybody will be his own rabbi: hence the greatest scandals” (Lauterb. 91).
And finally his conclusion: “If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to preach the Gospel” (Walch, VI,920).
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