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cpayne
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This thread has been quite helpful to me. Thanks to JaneFrances and everyone else.
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PhilVaz
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<< Welcome. It is good to have a real theologian on board. I’ll read it all (avidly) when I get some peace and quiet here. >>
Thanks, but I’m not a real theologian. I play one on the Internet. I’m a fake theologian with a lot of real theology books on topics relevant to apologetics. Your best three sources on Eucharist, early Fathers, and transubstantiation:
Darwell Stone, A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist (2 big volumes, 1909)
JND Kelly, chapters in Early Christian Doctrines
Francis Clark, Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Reformation
And I’ll toss in Bob Sungenis Not By Bread Alone, written in 2000 “before the Fall.”
Covers all the words and language of the Fathers with decent commentary. Although Stone is probably most detailed on the subject, with Fr. Clark, S.J. covering the period leading up to and including the Reformation.
Read all those and you can be a real theologian on this topic too!
Phil P
Thanks, but I’m not a real theologian. I play one on the Internet. I’m a fake theologian with a lot of real theology books on topics relevant to apologetics. Your best three sources on Eucharist, early Fathers, and transubstantiation:
Darwell Stone, A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist (2 big volumes, 1909)
JND Kelly, chapters in Early Christian Doctrines
Francis Clark, Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Reformation
And I’ll toss in Bob Sungenis Not By Bread Alone, written in 2000 “before the Fall.”
Covers all the words and language of the Fathers with decent commentary. Although Stone is probably most detailed on the subject, with Fr. Clark, S.J. covering the period leading up to and including the Reformation.Read all those and you can be a real theologian on this topic too!
Phil P
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mgrfin
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Okay, not a theologian? then Apologist.<< Welcome. It is good to have a real theologian on board. I’ll read it all (avidly) when I get some peace and quiet here. >>
Thanks, but I’m not a real theologian. I play one on the Internet. I’m a fake theologian with a lot of real theology books on topics relevant to apologetics. Your best three sources on Eucharist, early Fathers, and transubstantiation:
Darwell Stone, A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist (2 big volumes, 1909)
JND Kelly, chapters in Early Christian Doctrines
Francis Clark, Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Reformation
And I’ll toss in Bob Sungenis Not By Bread Alone, written in 2000 “before the Fall.”
Read all those and you can be a real theologian on this topic too!
Phil P
We have a problem on this site with reference sources. Protestants refuse to accept the Catholic Encyclopedia as a source, for example on the issue of Martin Luther supporting polygamy.
There was an issue on Augustine and the Eucharist, and you have much knowledge on this subject. Reading Augustine on this is a real spiritual experience for me. You can lead our Protestant brethren right up to the New Testament on clear passages on the Eucharist and the Real Presence, but then they back away. Yet, on real difficult passages on Justification by faith only they try to run us over with a few difficult passages in Romans and Galatians.
Again, we hope you participate in some of our discussions.
peace
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myfavoritmartin
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I’ve found more on Augusti’s sermon, this has bugged me for awhile seeing everyone quoting the sermon but only snippets…
So here you go!
I haven’t forgotten my promise. I had promised those of you who have just been baptized a sermon to explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table, which yo can see right now, and which you shared in last night. You ought to know what you have received, what you are about to receive, what you ought to receive every day. That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive. You see, the apostles says, We, being many, are one loaf, one body (1 Cor 10.17). That’s how he explained the sacrament of the Lord’s table; one loaf, one body, is what we all are, many though we be. In this loaf of bread you are given clear to understand how much you should love unity. I mean, what that loaf made from one grain? Weren’t there many grains of wheat? But before they came into the loaf they were all separate; they were joined together by means of water after a certain amount of pounding and crushing. Unless wheat is ground, after all, and moistened with water, it can’t possibly bet into this shape which is called bread. In the same way you too were being ground and pounded, as it were, by the humiliation of fasting and the sacrament of exorcism. then came baptism, and you were, in a manner of speaking, moistened with water in order to be shaped into bread. But it’s not yet bread without fire to bake it. So what does fire represent? That’s the chrism, the anointing. Oil, the fire-feeder, you see, is the sacrament of the Holy Spirit.
The missing part
Notice how he avoids dwelling on the physical body of Christ and directs attention to His ecclesial body.
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mgrfin
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myfavoritmartin
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The red is the rest of Augustins sermon that no one ever quotes, the first bit you had was only a snippet…
I just thought it interesting to put the balance of that sermon out there.
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mgrfin
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Villanova doesn’t have that. Could you provide us with a link, plse?
thanks.
peace
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myfavoritmartin
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Rbt_Southwell
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myfavoritmartin
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Go to the part that says I haven’t forgotten…
its where it begins
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myfavoritmartin
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Here’s another Rbt…2/3rds 0f the way down
people.vanderbilt.edu/~james.p.burns/chroma/eucharist/euchBurns2.html
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mgrfin
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I think Rbt Southwell is correct.
I am surprised at you. You mislead us.
And you sent us to this anti-Catholic site. Speaking of the Church as the 'w**** of Babylon, and all that stuff not worthy of Protestantism. I thought the middle Ages were over.
I think you ought to correct your post.
peace
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myfavoritmartin
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I posted a book, and now another thread showing the COMPLETE sermon, its anyone whom is posting snippets of this sermon out of context to quantify their position who are being misleading! MGRFIN
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Jean_Anthony
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Please refrain from making personal remarks, guys. Thank you.
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myfavoritmartin
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From that link
This in a sermon on Easter to the neophytes, a perfect time for speaking of the glorified body of Christ, he said:
I haven’t forgotten my promise. I had promised those of you who have just been baptized a sermon to explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table, which yo can see right now, and which you shared in last night. You ought to know what you have received, what you are about to receive, what you ought to receive every day. That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive. You see, the apostles says, We, being many, are one loaf, one body (1 Cor 10.17). That’s how he explained the sacrament of the Lord’s table; one loaf, one body, is what we all are, many though we be. In this loaf of bread you are given clear to understand how much you should love unity. I mean, what that loaf made from one grain? Weren’t there many grains of wheat? But before they came into the loaf they were all separate; they were joined together by means of water after a certain amount of pounding and crushing. Unless wheat is ground, after all, and moistened with water, it can’t possibly bet into this shape which is called bread. In the same way you too were being ground and pounded, as it were, by the humiliation of fasting and the sacrament of exorcism. then came baptism, and you were, in a manner of speaking, moistened with water in order to be shaped into bread. But it’s not yet bread without fire to bake it. So what does fire represent? That’s the chrism, the anointing. Oil, the fire-feeder, you see, is the sacrament of the Holy Spirit. (26)
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mgrfin
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myfavoritmartin
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Then YOU quoted Cyprian…mgrfin, I can not read it for you…Page 39 says in sermon 227 and then goes on to speak of the sermon…My other link is pretty clear also!
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mgrfin
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myfavoritmartin
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I request that you point out my error or retract your statements!
Likewise for Rbt Southwell
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myfavoritmartin
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