The Real Presence in the Eucharist...

[Peter_Dawson]

For those that believe in Jesus Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, how do you know for sure? I know there are certain passages in Scripture such as John 6 that sounds like the Real Presence but, if your interpretation is wrong, everybody who worships the Eucharist is guilty of idolatry. This is something I would want to make sure I was 100% correct on, you know? What convinced you unequivocally that Jesus Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity are Present in the Holy Eucharist?

~Curtis

“This is My body…This is My blood.”?

I also make use of typological word pictures in the Bible.

In Luke’s Nativity account, we see Jesus wrapped up like a cadaver, on a kind of “dinner plate” – a feeding trough. It is a picture of Jesus’ actual sacrificed dead body being offered as food – a perfect picture of the Real Presence.

In 2 Maccabees 14, the story of Razis the Elder of the Jews is a story which “rubs our noses” in Real Presence theology in a very bloody way. Razis stanging on a tock is a picture of risen Jesus presiding over His Church. And what does Razis do? He flings his entrails out to the crowd! A very brutal portrayal of Real Presence theology.

There’s another even-more-brutal word picture, in Judges, but I’m not sure here that the folks here can take it.

 

[grannymh]

There’s another even-more-brutal word picture, in Judges, but I’m not sure here that the folks here can take it.

Please accept my apology for this poster’s ugly way of portraying God. This is his own personal way of looking at our loving and merciful Savior. The Catholic Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist does not need such a brutal portrayal nor a typological word picture of a cadaver.

To answer the OP’s last question. The beginning of a metaphysics class at Loyola University, Chicago evening school was unequivocally convincing. I left that night saying “YES!”

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Please accept my apology for this poster’s ugly way of portraying God. This is his own personal way of looking at our loving and merciful Savior. The Catholic Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist does not need such a brutal portrayal nor a typological word picture of a cadaver.

To answer the OP’s last question. The beginning of a metaphysics class at Loyola University, Chicago evening school was unequivocally convincing. I left that night saying “YES!”

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

Hi, Granny! Welcome back!

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Please accept my apology for this poster’s ugly way of portraying God. This is his own personal way of looking at our loving and merciful Savior. The Catholic Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist does not need such a brutal portrayal nor a typological word picture of a cadaver.

By the way, Granny, this post of yours is intellectually dishonest. You have changed your argument to avoid bumping into the raw fact that every Catholic Church has a great big statue of a cadaver hanging up over where Mass is celebrated, and that you, yourself, have been praying, for years, “When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim Your DEATH, Lord Jesus, until you come again in glory.”

 

[grannymh]

By the way, Granny, this post of yours is intellectually dishonest. You have changed your argument to avoid bumping into the raw fact that every Catholic Church has a great big statue of a cadaver hanging up over where Mass is celebrated, and that you, yourself, have been praying, for years, “When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim Your DEATH, Lord Jesus, until you come again in glory.”

May I respectfully remind you that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is not Razis. Nor do Catholics receive into their souls a great big statue of anything you wish to mention.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

May I respectfully remind you that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is not Razis. Nor do Catholics receive into their souls a great big statue of anything you wish to mention.

Hi, Granny!

Nor do Catholics receive into their souls a great big statue of anything you wish to mention.

I did not say that, dear friend, did I?

What I did say is that when Catholics eat the bread and drink the wine, that is a “proclaiming” of His “DEATH.” Those words of the Church are true, aren’t they?

May I respectfully remind you that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is not Razis.

Why do I need reminding on this? You seem to be implying that I say things that are actually twisted versions of what I in fact said, so that you can pretend to correct me, dear friend in Christ.

Why not simply post what I said, dear friend, instead of rewording what I said, and then criticize what I actually said, instead of your own twisted version?

Did I say that the Second Person of the Trinity IS Razis? No! I said that Razis “is a picture of” – that he symbolizes – the Second Person of the Trinity, just as the bronze serpent on the pole in Numbers 21 is a picture of – it symbolizes – Christ on the cross.

 

[grannymh]

By the way, Granny, this post of yours is intellectually dishonest. You have changed your argument to avoid bumping into the raw fact that every Catholic Church has a great big statue of a cadaver hanging up over where Mass is celebrated, and that you, yourself, have been praying, for years, “When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim Your DEATH, Lord Jesus, until you come again in glory.”

May I respectfully remind you that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is not Razis. Nor do Catholics receive into their souls a great big statue of anything you wish to mention.

 

[Radical]

Why stuggle with this ?

I don’t struggle with it…I am very confident that I’ve got it right

What if you became blind and lost sense of taste/smell. Would you rely on your remaining senses, which couldn’t help you, …

touch?

…or would you accept what Christ tells you in the Gospels ?

brb2, you should understand that all the devout, (notwithstanding if they hold to a real presence, or a spiritual presence or a symbolic proclamation) believe that they are accepting what Jesus told us in the gospels (no true believer is going to purposely misinterpret Christ words) …we all recognize that some of Jesus’s words should be taken literally, others spiritually and still others metaphorically. When Christ said this (non-literally) :

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

…the “is” is the greek “estin” same as when Jesus said (wrt the bread), “…this is my body.” “Estin” is not a word that must be used only in statements that are to be understood literally. The question is, “How should we accept those words from Christ? Literally? Non-literally?”…and not whether we should accept his words.

 

[grannymh]

The Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Eucharist is sacred.
Desecration of the Person or the Sacrament by the words of personal opinion or free speech can be considered a sacrilege.

 

[brb2]

…I am very confident that I’ve got it right

a word that must be used only in statements that are to be understood literally. The question is, “How should we accept those words from Christ? Literally? Non-literally?”…and not whether we should accept his words.

We Catholics know better, many of us first knowing only half of the truth. The first disciples too were amazed at words/teaching of Christ on this … and many left Christ, considering OTHER partial interpretations.

But, his first 12 and the other close disciples, accepted the literal & spiritual meaning … that Christ gave them.

Will you ULTIMATELY leave too ? Draw near … to the Eucharist, accepting BOTH meanings.

Ask yourself this … is ANYTHING impossible for Christ who created the atom and the quark, and the other subatomics ? Most of matter is empty space … and invisible to your eye and other senses.

Be believing … not a doubter in the words of the Great I AM. This is a great test of faith that the creater has placed before all who consider him. Will you measure up, and see you current error ?

 

[JustaServant]

For those that believe in Jesus Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, how do you know for sure? I know there are certain passages in Scripture such as John 6 that sounds like the Real Presence but, if your interpretation is wrong, everybody who worships the Eucharist is guilty of idolatry. This is something I would want to make sure I was 100% correct on, you know? What convinced you unequivocally that Jesus Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity are Present in the Holy Eucharist?

~Curtis

When the Eucharist is removed from a Christian’s life, they are forever trying to find something to replace it with.
Some (like me) try Bible study. But no amount of knowledge, memorization, or meditation on the Sacred Scriptures can give me what the Eucharist gives me. Some try music. Emotional music can make my toe tap or bring me to tears. But as good as music is, it can never give me what can give me what the Eucharist gives me. Others, look for ‘miracles and manifestations’. They at least know there is something more, an encounter with the Divine. But there is no greater miracle or manifestation greater than that which is found in the Eucharist.
Jesus said “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” This is made real through the Eucharist as we connect with the Risen Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus instituted the new covenant. He said this is my body with the focus on the bread. He said this is my blood with the focus on the wine. So when I take communion every Sunday I realize that by the power of the Holy Spirit I am in this everlasting covenant with God through the blood of His Son.
And as I take the elements into myself, by the power of the Holy Spirit I am receiving Christ into me, mind, body, and soul, and our lives flow as one. His body strengthens me, His blood renews life in me, He is feeding me His very self. Christ feeds us spiritual food and we, in eating and drinking, have received His very Life through the sacraments.

 

[marymol]

hebrewcatholic.org/PrayerandSpirituality/eucharistjewishm.html - Eucharist from a Jewish Catholic perspective and such lights from our older brethren seem very good , to enhance our own grasp of this great mystery of love …and against the doubts that go with it …;
’ how can mere spoken words have such power …’

Going to our origins could help here too - even the writings of some venerable ones that hint that inGod’s original plan, we ( Adam ) was going to be given power to bring forth holy children through the spoken word !

thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3756&PLID=75

Comments at the end mention these .

Such an understanding of the original plan also would help us to see The Church being led / tended more into such truths - celibate , male priesthood as restoration of the original plan ; the great value of virginity , to serve the Kingdom, to be able to bring forth spirtual children into same ; the centrality of The Word and even the Immaculate Conception - possibly indicating a restoration of that original gift …and there in also lie the answer to much of the frustration and problems , in a culture that makes flesh and its passions as idols !

True intimacy , of the spiritual type , accomplshing all, in the physical realm too - are we not being given more depth of these Godly truths , through The Church !

Glory be !

 

[marymol]

What took place between the tempting and destructive words of the serpent and Adam and Eve , in listening to its words and its impact down through the lines , also could help us to see how the life giving words in the authority of The Word spoken by the priest at every Eucharistic Consecration , done in faithful love through The Church , is the perfect God given remedy and truth , to reverse the effects of those death bearing words of satan who wanted to make us its slave/ progeny, to ’ know good and evil’ , except things would be reversed in its realm so that God and His Goodness would be evil to it !

Sadly, many still find it hard to believe that God and His love can be THAT good …

May He help us to increase our faith !

 

[patricius79]

Hi,

I have a question about Mt 26:29 … I’m a faithful Catholic but can’t come up with a very good response to the protestant argument from this verse against Transubstantiation …

why does CHrist refer to his blood as “this fruit of the vine” in this verse?

–Pat

 

[Pax]

Hi,

I have a question about Mt 26:29 … I’m a faithful Catholic but can’t come up with a very good response to the protestant argument from this verse against Transubstantiation …

why does CHrist refer to his blood as “this fruit of the vine” in this verse?

–Pat

There are a number of things at work in the verse and all of them are in harmony. Jesus is the “vine” and we are the branches. The vine feeds the branches. Likewise, the fruit of the vine, that is the wine, used at the last supper can properly be seen as food and is fruit of the vine(wine) prior to transubstantiation and is fruit of the vine(Jesus) subsequent to transubstantiation. Another thing to remember is how wine is used in the OT as a metaphor for blood. Jesus is literal in his language but poetic as well. Jesus’s language is in harmony with all of scripture.

The Old Covenant is a prefiguring of the New and the Old Covenant is likewise fulfilled in the New Covenant. It is important to focus on that verse within a much larger context of scripture. Isolating it as an argument against transubstantiation seems like a huge stretch to me. Scripture needs to be read and understood as a cosmic tapestry where every thread and color has meaning and contributes to the whole.

I hope this helps.

 

[patricius79]

There are a number of things at work in the verse and all of them are in harmony. Jesus is the “vine” and we are the branches. The vine feeds the branches. Likewise, the fruit of the vine, that is the wine, used at the last supper can properly be seen as food and is fruit of the vine(wine) prior to transubstantiation and is fruit of the vine(Jesus) subsequent to transubstantiation. Another thing to remember is how wine is used in the OT as a metaphor for blood. Jesus is literal in his language but poetic as well. Jesus’s language is in harmony with all of scripture.

The Old Covenant is a prefiguring of the New and the Old Covenant is likewise fulfilled in the New Covenant. It is important to focus on that verse within a much larger context of scripture. Isolating it as an argument against transubstantiation seems like a huge stretch to me. Scripture needs to be read and understood as a cosmic tapestry where every thread and color has meaning and contributes to the whole.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, Pax. It does.

 

[Radical]

I mention Protestant patristic scholars to show that no scholar of which I am aware, Protestant or Catholic, denies that Ignatius believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist (certainly, no Catholic scholar denies it). This is the realm of accepted Christian scholarship. People who deny that Ignatius believed in the Real Presence (I presume you are one of them) are on the fringe regarding Ignatius’ writings. That is my point.

Ignatius33 and Verbum Caro, I happened upon this article …thought that it was an interesting read that touched on the issues we discussed on this thread. Hope you find it interesting too.

 

[maggie41]

Those are some great verses…Thanks for posting that…I’m not here to question anybody that believes in the Real Presence…I’m Protestant but looking into the Catholic faith…I was just seeing what made others believe 100% that Jesus Christ is Present in the Eucharist. If anybody posting has converted from a Protestant church (I attend a Bible church now which is associated with the Baptist churches) and became Catholic, I’m sure they know what I’m going through. God bless.

Yes, I do know what you are going through Curtis. I converted from a Baptist background. The Eucharist was the most difficult belief for me. Most people struggle with purgatory, the pope or Mary. Not me, it was the Eucharist.

There were many bible verses, and good logical arguments that I read, but I would have to say that in the end belief came by pure grace. Pray for God to help you with your unbelief and then be patient and trust Him.

In Christ’s Love,
Maggie

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, I do know what you are going through Curtis. I converted from a Baptist background. The Eucharist was the most difficult belief for me. Most people struggle with purgatory, the pope or Mary. Not me, it was the Eucharist.

There were many bible verses, and good logical arguments that I read, but I would have to say that in the end belief came by pure grace. Pray for God to help you with your unbelief and then be patient and trust Him.

In Christ’s Love,
Maggie

Well said.

 

[crazzeto]

For those that believe in Jesus Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, how do you know for sure? I know there are certain passages in Scripture such as John 6 that sounds like the Real Presence but, if your interpretation is wrong, everybody who worships the Eucharist is guilty of idolatry. This is something I would want to make sure I was 100% correct on, you know? What convinced you unequivocally that Jesus Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity are Present in the Holy Eucharist?

~Curtis

If the bible isn’t enough for you, then there’s the Fathers… And there are more than just a few passages here and there, Jesus discusses the real presence quite a bit in many different ways all over the NT, as well as his crusifixsion and resurection. I’m 150% certain with regard to the real presence.