The REAL PRESENCE is always REAL

[Karin]

It is so sad that you did not receive a welcome, but an unpleasant lack of charity from the customary group in this section. Note well their names, for you will find them gathered whenever someone speaks well of the N.O. mass. It isn’t YOU, it’s your principles that are being withstood.

God bless you.

I always speak well of my reverent Holy NO Mass… heck I sing its praises from the rooftops…
And may I add another WELCOME to CAF Marygraces!

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

Please keep the conversation on topic. Personal remarks about oneself and about others are not necessary and may not be in line with forum rules.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I will give a short answer.

I attend an indult parish, and I know a few people who will NOT recieve communion if the priest reaches into the tabernacle for more hosts. (For fear they might have been concecrated at a Novus Ordo and be invalid. Despite that your favorite philosopher and mine, Thomas Aquinas, said that if unconcecrated hosts are mixed with concecrated ones, they will become concecrated. And please don’t ask me to look that up. )

Regardless, they never follow their logic back to its roots. If the Novus Ordo is invalid, that means my priests Holy Orders are invalid. After all, it was done during a Novus Ordo with the new order of ordination. So that means even the Tridentine Hosts are not valid!

Even if they attend a FSSP parish, or all Tridentine parish, a Bishop along the lines was ordained during a Novus Ordo. (Except the SSPX of course).

If someone wants to think that, it makes a lot of scary implications.

It certainly does.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

I am admittedly new to all of this, but I couldn’t turn my head away from the differences in the prayers of consecration and the comparison to the sacrifices of Cain and Abel. In the old rite it’s clear the sacrifice is offering a spotless victim, in the Novus Ordo it’s clear the bread and wine is emphasised as being made by human hands, and really seems to reflect Cain’s sacrifice. The old prayer after consecration is so much better on so many different levels I don’t understand why it isn’t reinstated tomorrow.

Will God Himself reside within a sacrifice reminiscant of Cain’s? Will God Himself be O.K. anything less than a perefect sacrifice? The Church and the Pope says yes, but still the new prayer bothers me a lot now.

 

[Joysong]

It might be helpful to consider that the bread and wine Jesus blessed at the Last Supper was also “made by human hands.”

Your reference to Cain’s sacrifice is inappropriate, for St.Paul points us to the attitude of faith in Abel’s heart which pleased God. I don’t believe it was the gift that mattered as much as the devotion with which it was presented to God.

Hebrews 11:4. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings.

 

[Karin]

It might be helpful to also remember that Jesus is physically present in the Bread and Wine

 

[SnorterLuster]

It might be helpful to consider that the bread and wine Jesus blessed at the Last Supper was also “made by human hands.”

Joysong, I ask this with a smile on my face; How can you be sure that the bread and wine at the last supper wasn’t created as the loaves and the fishes or the wine at Cana?

 

[Joysong]

Hi Snorterluster,

I trust you were joking?

If you were serious, let me know … there is an answer.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

It might be helpful to consider that the bread and wine Jesus blessed at the Last Supper was also “made by human hands.”

Your reference to Cain’s sacrifice is inappropriate, for St.Paul points us to the attitude of faith in Abel’s heart which pleased God. I don’t believe it was the gift that mattered as much as the devotion with which it was presented to God.

Does that mean the sacrifice is meanignless? That only faith matters? That appears to be what you are saying by referencing that phrase. If it’s only faith that matters I may as well join a Baptist Church. We’re Catholics we do Catholic things, and yes the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is one of them, and it’s done for a reason. If only what’s in the heart matters than we as Catholcis have no leg to stand on with all our liturgical worship and rituals.

It doesn’t sound right, compare the two prayers, look at the differences one clearly references the sacrifice as the spotless lamb offered for sin, the other talks about fruit of the vine and bread made by human hands with no reference as to what the sacrifice actually is. And we wonder why only 30% of Catholics know what the Real Presence actually is?

Genesis 4:1-5:

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, **that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. **

"Blessed are You, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the Divinity of Christ, Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity. Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become for us our spiritual drink. "

“And now, O Lord, we, Thy servants, and with us all Thy holy people,** calling to mind the blessed Passion of this same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, likewise His Resurrection from the grave, and also His glorious Ascension into heaven, do offer unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us: a Victim + which is pure, a Victim + which is holy, a Victim + which is spotless, the holy Bread + of life eternal, and the Chalice + of everlasting Salvation**. Deign to look upon them with a favorable and gracious countenance, and to accept them as **Thou didst accept the offerings of Thy just servant Abel, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham, and that which Thy high priest Melchisedech offered up to Thee, a holy Sacrifice, an immaculate Victim.” **

Come on now, the prayer after consecration should be changed today without any thought, just compare them.

 

[Rykell]

And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

The scriptures tell us that each of these men had a completely different occupation. Could Abel have offered the fruit of the ground? Could Cain have offered sheep? No to both Q’s. Each brought their own livelihood substance in offering to God, but the Book of Hebrews reveals that Cain had a problem in the manner he offered it … the word “faith” was used. Do you have any proof that St. Paul was wrong?

My guess, since there is nothing to indicate otherwise, is that Cain did not use the choicest fruit of the land, as Abel did of his sheep, but perhaps the refuse of the fruit, saving the best for himself.

It doesn’t sound right, compare the two prayers, look at the differences one clearly references the sacrifice as the spotless lamb offered for sin, the other talks about fruit of the vine and bread made by human hands with no reference as to what the sacrifice actually is. And we wonder why only 30% of Catholics know what the Real Presence actually is?
This percentage is clearly a misquote without foundation. I ask that you retract it until you verify it as being true.

I invite you to do a little research also, Ecce. Compare the words Jesus used at the Last Supper that were used in every Passover celebration. You will find they are very much alike in the N.O. offertory. I am very glad the Church decided to incorporate them into the liturgy, for this more completely teaches the hearer, as well as prepares the “sacrificial” gifts.

Come on now, the prayer after consecration should be changed today without any thought, just compare them.

The key words that you are forgetting, Ecce, is “after consecration.” Until then, it is bread and wine. No one who calls himself Catholic would believe that after the consecration, they are NOT in the presense of the Spotless host, the Sacrificial Victim, Jesus Christ! Amen.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

Rykell, it isn’t a misquote the percentage is accurate and backed up by our own Catholic Church.

I’ve seen the same study shown many times, it was a gallup poll about the issue:

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_17_128/ai_79305248

“The first study to catch the bishops’ attention was commissioned by the Reverend Peter Stravinskas, a well-known Catholic apologist and editor of The Catholic Answer. In 1992, he obtained funds from the Saint Augustine Center Association and hired the Gallup Organization to conduct a national poll asking Catholics: “Which one of the following statements about Holy Communion do you think best reflects your belief?” Only 30 percent of the respondents chose the first option: “When receiving Holy Communion, you are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine” (which Stravinskas interpreted as the “orthodox” Catholic view). Twenty-nine percent indicated “you are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus and in so doing are expressing your attachment to His person and words.” Twenty-four percent believed “you are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become that because of your personal belief.” Ten percent said “you are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus is really and truly present.” Finally, 8 percent said “none of the above,” “don’t know,” or refused to answer.”

As for the rest of your post it’s too sliced and diced, if you could just paraphrase and I could respond to your entire thought that would help. I don’t like the cutting and responding to sliced up posts too much gets lost tht way and peoples posts typically get taken out of context.

But no I won’t retract the statement that only 30% of Catholics know what the Real Presence is, because all information I’ve seen on this points to that statement being truthful.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

My guess, since there is nothing to indicate otherwise, is that Cain did not use the choicest fruit of the land, as Abel did of his sheep, but perhaps the refuse of the fruit, saving the best for himself. .

I’ll respond to this one point, to me that is taking liberty with the scriptures that is not there at all. That is your personal interpretation that is not at all backed up by the scriptures. No reason Cain couldn’t have obtained a spotless lamb from his brother to offer for a sacrifice. Read numbers do you assume all the animals scrificed were raised by those offering them? Or at the Jewish Temple were all scrifices raised by them? What if one was a bookkeeper could they not obtain foregiveness? No, Genesis is clear that God was displeased with Cain’s sacrifice of fruits and plants, that’s what it says, it says nothing of Cain keeping the choice fruits at all.

 

[netmilsmom]

But no I won’t retract the statement that only 30% of Catholics know what the Real Presence is, because all information I’ve seen on this points to that statement being truthful.

The disbelief by posters is always brought up with this figure. A “no way, I don’t believe it” is normal here.

What you have referenced is the best study I’ve seen. Keep it bookmarked, we need it.

From personal experience, I sat a a table with parents for a “Reconcilliation” meeting before my daughter could make First Confession at the Catholic Community. There were 12 of us at the table and as soon as one woman was brave enough to state that she did not believe that the Host and Wine were changed to the Body and Blood of Christ, only another lady and myself would not agree.

I looked at this woman and told her that this is the basis of Catholic teachings. I asked her why she was there? She just studdered and got quiet.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

The disbelief by posters is always brought up with this figure. A “no way, I don’t believe it” is normal here.

What you have referenced is the best study I’ve seen. Keep it bookmarked, we need it.

From personal experience, I sat a a table with parents for a “Reconcilliation” meeting before my daughter could make First Confession at the Catholic Community. There were 12 of us at the table and as soon as one woman was brave enough to state that she did not believe that the Host and Wine were changed to the Body and Blood of Christ, only another lady and myself would not agree.

I looked at this woman and told her that this is the basis of Catholic teachings. I asked her why she was there? She just studdered and got quiet.

I went through ten years of CCD classes and I had no clue what the Real Presence was until investigating myself around 22 years old (after receiving first communion and confirmation). It simply wasn’t taught to me, and you certainly couldn’t figure it out from the liturgy.

 

[Karin]

I went through ten years of CCD classes and I had no clue what the Real Presence was until investigating myself around 22 years old (after receiving first communion and confirmation). It simply wasn’t taught to me, and you certainly couldn’t figure it out from the liturgy.

You know I am sorry to hear this…that is truly a sad state of affairs!
How can we have Catholics in our midst and in our Churchs that have NO IDEA about the REAL PRESENCE???

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

I will add that i don’t doubt the Real Presence in the Novus Ordo Mass. I love the Novus Ordo Mass if done reverently, I just think that some of the older liturgy make Catholic teaching more… I don’t know… obvious? I do think the traditional prayer after consecration more accurately describes and represents what’s going on better than the new prayer, much better.

 

[netmilsmom]

You know I am sorry to hear this…that is truly a sad state of affairs!
How can we have Catholics in our midst and in our Churchs that have NO IDEA about the REAL PRESENCE???

I really do feel that it is the egos of those who were in charge for so many years.

Our CCD classes became Sunday School. Free at any Protestant church but $$$ at a Catholic parish.

They focused on the Bible first instead of focusing on the Catechism and the way that it is found in the Bible.

If I’m paying for CCD, they better be teaching Catholic, not just Christian. I can tell my children, God made the flowers and Jesus loves you. I have a much harder time getting them to understand that they are receiving the actual Body and Blood of Christ.
Catechists should be trained in how to get them to understand this in an age appropriate way. If they are not, I can go to the local Lutheran church and get how much Jesus loves them.

And pitifully, many do.

 

[Thursday1]

I’ll respond to this one point, to me that is taking liberty with the scriptures that is not there at all. That is your personal interpretation that is not at all backed up by the scriptures. No reason Cain couldn’t have obtained a spotless lamb from his brother to offer for a sacrifice. Read numbers do you assume all the animals scrificed were raised by those offering them? Or at the Jewish Temple were all scrifices raised by them? What if one was a bookkeeper could they not obtain foregiveness? No, Genesis is clear that God was displeased with Cain’s sacrifice of fruits and plants, that’s what it says, it says nothing of Cain keeping the choice fruits at all.

I don’t have the Hebrew in front of me, but I can say with almost absolute certainty that what is translated as “fruit of the ground” is a word which means “overripe fruit that fell from the tree.” I know I have seen it translated this way before. In that case, Cain did offer the refuse of his crop to God. Melchizidec didn’t get into trouble for offering God bread and wine, so God must not require a sheep all the time.
As to the prayers, they are both correct (as they have to be, The Church teaches them). The sacrifice is both the spotless lamb, and bread, which earth has given and human hands have made.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Rykell]

Ecce Homo:

I’ll respond to this one point, to me that is taking liberty with the scriptures that is not there at all. That is your personal interpretation that is not at all backed up by the scriptures. No reason Cain couldn’t have obtained a spotless lamb from his brother to offer for a sacrifice. Read numbers do you assume all the animals scrificed were raised by those offering them? Or at the Jewish Temple were all scrifices raised by them?

I did not take liberties with scripture, but if you read my post again, I stated it was my “guess.” None of us know, do we? The scripture does not state why God was displeased, other than in Hebrews 11.

If anyone is taking liberties with scripture, it seems that you may be, for you imply that Cain could have obtained a lamb from his brother. You are not considering that this was Genesis 4, the very beginnings of man, and at that point, God gave no command as to what offering would please Him. Animal sacrifice was not a ritual until after Moses received instructions from God on the holy mount.

As for the percentage, I was really surprised by this, as well as saddened. If true, it reveals a need for more instruction. Maybe that’s why the popes in our day are focusing on the Eucharist.

 

[Sixtus]

This particular topic has been beat to death on this forum and is usually brought up in an attempt to cause dissension and start a squabble between Traditionalists and Liberals.

Hang ona minute. I started my career as ‘traditionalist’, but as I have grown in maturity, see the need to be more realistic, moving towards liberalism.

Also been very active in promoting Ecumenism. But for all that, I STILL BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE.

I am no longer able to receive Him in the Hand or minister HIm by touching His flesh.

It is erronious to assert that liberals water down or diminish the Real Presence