The Real Presence - The Lord

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christs real presence is with me continually. It is spelled out so clearly in the bible that it is Christ **in us **the hope of glory. that God in all His fullness would abide with us and in us
I just dont understand why the Catholic Church doesnt teach the basic gospel message.

Even Martin Luther who started protestantism through the reformation believed in the Eucharist.

In 1529 Martin Luther engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

The trouble with speaking Bible history, early Christian history, early Church fathers or even reformation with protestants is, most of them know nothing about any of it. They feel all answers are in the Bible and all they need is private interpretations. Trouble is, there are thousands of denominations all built on slightly different private interpretations. This goes against scriptures in itself.

**1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment. **

Someone is not getting their interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Hisalone]

No-why should I?

I guess you havent read the Cathecism:

44Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.

2707*There are as many and varied methods of meditation as there are spiritual masters. Christians owe it to themselves to develop the desire to meditate regularly, lest they come to resemble the three first kinds of soil in the parable of the sower. *But a method is only a guide; the important thing is to advance, with the Holy Spirit, along the one way of prayer: Christ Jesus.

***1299 ***In the Roman Rite the bishop extends his hands over the whole group of the confirmands. Since the time of the apostles this gesture has signified the gift of the Spirit. The bishop invokes the outpouring of the Spirit in these words:

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by water and the Holy Spirit
you freed your sons and daughters from sin
and gave them new life.
Send your Holy Spirit upon them
to be their helper and guide.
Give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of right judgment and courage,
the spirit of knowledge and reverence.
Fill them with the spirit of wonder and awe in your presence.
*We ask this through Christ our Lord. *

---

God has preserved for Himself a remnant even in te Catholic Church. This remnant as in times past are mostly in the monastic life. There many practice contemplative prayer and understnad that God lives in them. Tee whole of Christian life is for God to live in and through us. Many of the Catolics I see here dont understand that. For them their salvation is in membership to their church.

 

[estesbob]

God has preserved for Himself a remnant even in te Catholic Church. This remnant as in times past are mostly in the monastic life. There many practice contemplative prayer and understnad that God lives in them. Tee whole of Christian life is for God to live in and through us. Many of the Catolics I see here dont understand that. For them their salvation is in membership to their church.

You made comments about Church teachings that were not true. Having been confronted with that you now claim that you know Catholics that dont understand what the Church teaches(w it is evident neither do you). Ancedotal evidence proves nothing. The truh of the matter is you dont know enough about Church teaching to have an opinion on it.

 

[Hisalone]

You made comments about Church teachings that were not true. Having been confronted with that you now claim that you know Catholics that dont understand what the Church teaches(w it is evident neither do you). Ancedotal evidence proves nothing. The truh of the matter is you dont know enough about Church teaching to have an opinion on it.

You couldnt be more wrong.

 

[Our_Refuge]

=Adam14;3820879]I can see both sides of the argument, really. ** And at first, I’d always thought that this was a matter of interpretation**. Yes the text says, “…this is My Body…etc”. But it also says that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off…etc. SO…I never believed that everything had to be taken literally. That was (and still is) a part of my confusion, what is taken literally and what isn’t.

Over the past several weeks, my view has began to change somewhat. I find myself questioning what I said in the previous paragraph. If Jesus only mentioned this once, that would be one thing, but He repeats it several times in John 6 that this IS His Body, this IS His Blood…Eat My Flesh…etc…

Read John 6 again and notice how the disciples had doubts just like you do. They thought Jesus was crazy. Many of them left over his words. Again notice that Jesus did not call them back and say, " I meant unless you symbolically eat my flesh". Instead he let them go on their way.

John 6: 51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world **is my flesh." **
52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “**How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” **
[60] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, **“This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” **
[66] After this many of his disciples drew back **and no longer went about with him. **
[67] Jesus said to the twelve, **“Do you also wish to go away?” **

John 6: [53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, **unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; **
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

 

[Hisalone]

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. **36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. **
Jesus sees that they do not believe, even before He commands to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
The unbelievers reveal themselves again.

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me F26 has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life.
Jesus flat our says that it is belief in Him that is the life.

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
How does one eat this living bread----to believe in Jesus

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, F27 and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? **63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” **

Jesus again explains what gives life, it is His words it is the Spirit. Flesh profits nothing. He is not giving His flesh to eat literally He is giving His words that av elife and the Spirit who has life.

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
**Dont ever say again that Jesuys did not call tem back or that he did not try to teach them because for the third time in this discourse Jesus know they are unbelievers and that the Father had not sent them to Him **

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” F28
Peter does not believe he has to eat the literal flesh or drink His blood. Jesus’ words give life, Peter knows the words are life and he believes in Jesus not believes he is to eat Jesus.
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

---

FOOTNOTES:
F23: Exodus 16:4; Nehemiah 9:15; Psalm 78:24
F24: Isaiah 54:13
F25: M-Text reads hears and has learned.
F26: NU-Text omits in Me.
F27: NU-Text reads true food and true drink.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus again explains what gives life, it is His words it is the Spirit. Flesh profits nothing. He is not giving His flesh to eat literally He is giving His words that av elife and the Spirit who has life.

His words are of the Spirit and His words are clear as prefigured in the Old Testament.

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

In John chapter 6, Christ repeats His instructions 3 times! Any other time that He spoke symbolically and it was clear He was not understood, He asked if they could not hear and would explain Himself.

Do you really think the flesh that profited nothing was Christ’s?

Christ in the Eucharist

In John 6:63 “flesh profits nothing” refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: “You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.” So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them. Paul also said, “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). “To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.

Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).

Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. “I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence” (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).

Cyril of Jerusalem, in a catechetical lecture presented in the mid-300s, said, “Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy
of the body and blood of Christ” (Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4:22:9).

In a fifth-century homily, Theodore of Mopsuestia seemed to be speaking to today’s Evangelicals and Fundamentalists: “When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood,’ for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord” (Catechetical Homilies 5:1).

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[SIA]

It is so plainly spelled out in the Bible and in the writings of the Early Church Fathers which most Protestants recognize. Why do they not come home to the Church where they can receive the Real Presence of Jesus Christ just as he said in scripture? Men throughout the centuries have handed down the power to consecrate bread into the Body of Jesus Christ. Here is the church that He set it up in. Here is the place where He comes to us! The Catholic (Universal) Church! Why would you want to be anywhere else?

Luke

You must have a very poor understanding of many Protestants. Anglicans DO believe in the real presence. Transubstantiation and the attempt to explain a meta-physical change in substance is another thread altogether.

 

[ufamtobie]

Christs real presence is with me continually. It is spelled out so clearly in the bible that it is Christ **in us **the hope of glory. that God in all His fullness would abide with us and in us
I just dont understand why the Catholic Church doesnt teach the basic gospel message.

Hisalone,

In us through the Blessed Sacrament

(Matt 7: 21-23)None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, 'Lord, Lord, have we not phophesied in your name? Have we not exorcised demonds by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well?

Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evil doers!'

Hisalone, did not these people think they had Jesus in them

A sentence later Jesus says in: (Matt: 7: 24) "Anyone who hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who built his house on ROCK.

Hisalone, where else did Jesus Mentioned the word “ROCK”? You know what I am talking about and that is "On this ROCK I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail agianst it

What other Church Claims by the Power of the Holy Spirit that it is the ROCK! “The Catholic Church” No other church claims it becasue they can’t and therefore there is jealousy, jealously to the bone to their own down fall for THEY DO NOT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN they protest against it How can this man give us his flesh to eat, the Jews said it in the past, the protestants say it today.

This coming Sunday, take your Father to Mass and pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament for guidence.

Ufamtobie

 

[Famule]

You must have a very poor understanding of many Protestants. Anglicans DO believe in the real presence. Transubstantiation and the attempt to explain a meta-physical change in substance is another thread altogether.

If they believe in it, then why don’t they come home to the Church that has men invested with the power to make it happen?

Luke

 

[SIA]

If they believe in it, then why don’t they come home to the Church that has men invested with the power to make it happen?

Luke

Because we do not share your belief that man has any power to meta-physically change bread and wine. We believe that it is Christ who becomes present upon consecration, not a priest who has power to magically make Christ appear.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Christs real presence is with me continually. It is spelled out so clearly in the bible that it is Christ **in us **the hope of glory. that God in all His fullness would abide with us and in us
I just dont understand why the Catholic Church doesnt teach the basic gospel message.

Some are content with only the spiritual essence, and any mention of the bodily essence is corruption of the spiritual.

Some know that man is a creation of soul (spirit) and body, and not a soul corrupted by and contained in a body.

That is the difference between a sacramental people and an intellectual/spiritual people.

The glorified body we shall receive at the eschaton is a mere “pretty cloak of spiritual light” to the puritan, while it is what Jesus showed us and what Thomas felt into at the time between His rising and His ascension.

I prefer to be as Jesus showed us we are to be, which is to be a sacramental people.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Because we do not share your belief that man has any power to meta-physically change bread and wine. We believe that it is Christ who becomes present upon consecration, not a priest who has power to magically make Christ appear.

It is not man who effects the change, just as it is not man who effects forgiveness of sins, just as it is not man who effects the effects of baptism.

It is Christ who does these things.

But we accept the benefits of baptism, and we accept the benefits of being forgiven, and we accept that God wants us to have Him bodily with us when we need Him.

Do YOU magically have the power to make Christ appear? No. But do you have the gift of allowing Him to be present with you? Yes you do.

You may believe as you wish, but just as you wouldn’t want your invocations of God mocked as “magical manipulations”, don’t mock our invocations as magical.

 

[SIA]

It is not man who effects the change, just as it is not man who effects forgiveness of sins, just as it is not man who effects the effects of baptism.

It is Christ who does these things.

But we accept the benefits of baptism, and we accept the benefits of being forgiven, and we accept that God wants us to have Him bodily with us when we need Him.

Do YOU magically have the power to make Christ appear? No. But do you have the gift of allowing Him to be present with you? Yes you do.

You may believe as you wish, but just as you wouldn’t want your invocations of God mocked as “magical manipulations”, don’t mock our invocations as magical.

I’m not mocking anything. I am simply saying that we do have Christ present in our Eucharist but we don’t believe in Transubstantiation. Christ can be present anywhere at any time. It is the RCC who claims that we do not have a valid Eucharist which makes no sense at all given that they will call our Baptism valid.

 

[ufamtobie]

I’m not mocking anything. I am simply saying that we do have Christ present in our Eucharist but we don’t believe in Transubstantiation. Christ can be present anywhere at any time. It is the RCC who claims that we do not have a valid Eucharist which makes no sense at all given that they will call our Baptism valid.

Sia,

You are contradicting your own protestant church, all protestants consider the Eucharist SYMBOLIC and not the Real Presence.

You say it is the Real Presence but you don’t believe in Transubstanation. Are you starting a New Protestant Church that believe in the true presence but not Transubstantiation? You know there is a protestant church starting every day with new beliefs, are you one trying to do so? Please Don’t

Yes, it is True Jesus can be everywhere but not in the protestant Eucharist because they themselves don’t beileve it to be truely the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and not only that but they don’t have the Authority form Jesus Christ to do so.

Your qoute above makes me feel that you want to believe in the Real Presence but your pride gets in the way. Or why else would you be here at this Catholic site, why waste your time. However your time is not wated here Jesus has you here to come Home. Remember, Jesus Speaks through the Catholic Church and it is the Catholic Church that guides us safely to HIM. Again why else would you be here

In the Catholic tradition, the consecrated elements are treated with the same RESPECT that Jesus would be if he were physically present. That is because they are actually Jesus’ body and blood, so Jesus really is physically present. For that reason, it is perfectly appropriate to worship the consecrated elements. Most Protestants regard this with something between disbelief and horror, the same exact feeling of many Diciples that Left Jesus Except for the Original 12 Apostles and one being a devil Judas

Sia, at your protestant church, what happens to the elments of the Eucharist? It is discarded.

How many times do they celebrate the Eucharist? Once a Month if that.

As you know, in the Catholic Church the Eucharist is cellebrated daily Thousands of times all over the world. This here should show you how beautiful it is to totaly beilieve in the True Presence.

Sia, Come worship Jesus this Sunday at a Catholic Church, he is truly Present waiting Just for you and each one of us just like he said: “I will be with you untill the end of time.”

Ufamtobie

 

[JonNC]

Sia,

You are contradicting your own protestant church, all protestants consider the Eucharist SYMBOLIC and not the Real Presence.

Ufamtobie

The Augburg Confession

Article X: Of the Lord’s Supper.
1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

Most Anglicans and Lutherans believe in the real presence. It is not symbolic, nor a remembrance, nor even a spiritual presence. The body and blood of our Lord are truly and substantially present in the Eucharist.

Jon