The Real Problem with Mary

[COLOS]

Funny thing about Our Blessed Mother: she has so much God-given glory, so much honor from her Son, so much respect from Christians, that it makes the world uncomfortable.

I was thinking today about the incredible glory that Our Lady has been given. It seems as if many protestants think that she has been equated with God Himself by the Church. It’s as if they look at Mary as I used to, “How could she be like God for those Catholics?!” The reality is that God’s glory is as infinite as He is. His Honor exceeds Mary’s honor by an incalculably infinite amount…and that makes people uncomfortable.

It’s not that Mary is so honored, but that her honor has been revealed in a limited way to us and it is very, very high…so that means that the Lord’s glory and honor exceeds hers by an infinitely Godly amount. That fact disturbs people’s hearts and minds. It’s as if protestants view the glory that is Our Blessed Mother’s as the maximum glory possible in all of existence, and therefore only God could have that much.

That, my friend, is the real problem here. We cannot even grasp the extent of God’s own Glory, so we limit Him. We put Him in a box and say, “He can only have this much glory, and the Catholics gave it all to Mary.”

We accept that the Ark of the New Covenant absolutely should be honored. The Lord Himself fulfilled the command to honor thy Father and thy Mother. He fulfilled it in such a perfect way that the world can’t accept what He has done for His (and through Him, our) own Mother.

It seems as if Lord Jesus Christ has been put into a nice little box by their comfortable theology. It’s as if He is seen as nothing more than meek and mild Jesus with a radiant glow waiting for us in heaven. Rarely is He thought of as the Glorious God in front of whom even the disciple which He loved fell as though dead.

Our Blessed Mother is not worshipped like a goddess. [There was a cult (forgot which century they were in) who offered worship to Mary. They were roundly condemned by the Church] Nor is Our Blessed Mother worshipped with the adoration given to God alone. She is venerated with what is known as Hyperdulia. As the Mother of God, she is supreme over all created beings, human and angelic alike. She really is the Queen of Heaven, for her Son is the God of gods, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

The prize which we run toward is honestly beyond the power of our imagination…and that makes people uncomfortable.

What do you think?

*Please don’t attack my God-given Mother.

 

[bpbasilphx]

True Mariology is an extension of Christology.

Proper Marian devotion ultimately is about who Jesus is.

 

[COLOS]

True Mariology is an extension of Christology.

Proper Marian devotion ultimately is about who Jesus is.

Yup.

My point was that Mary shows us the kind of Glory that is present within the sight of God, and that many can’t deal with it.

 

[onetimeposter]

The biggest problem is that one day the Church made all these decisions about Mary and that was that.

The Church also has declared herself infallible in morals and faith.

Not sure how they can claim that she is the Queen of Heaven, seeing as that isn’t written in the Bible. Blessed are you among women…yes, she is a blessed among women.

Not sure how they can claim she is sinless, that isn’t written in the Bible. The Church seems to make assumptions based upon the names she was called by angels.

Not sure how they can make the claims about Mary’s assumption into heaven…that is absolutely not in the Bible.

Yet God wished that the Blessed Virgin Mary be exempt from this general law. For she, by a completely singular privilege, conquered sin in her Immaculate Conception, and thus was not liable to that law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, nor did she have to wait for the end of time for the redemption of her body"

Not sure how the Pope knew what God wished and I’m not sure how they came to the conclusion that she had to have an immaculate conception.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Not sure how…

I think most of it can be reasonably inferred to make it true if you accept the Catholic faith at all. It is not unreasonable to assume Mary was aware of her place in Jewish history once announced to her by the Angel which would effect her thinking the rest of her life.

The bible often references the purification of gold of things to be used in realtion to worshiping God. It also references the purification of man. The vessels used in Mass are made of gold because gold is a symbol of sacred things. If God were to choose a human to enter the world, it is not unreasonable to conclude she would be as pure as gold for God. The Jewish people had been in Gods ‘furnace’ so to speak for over 1000 years sice Moses brought them the Law and maybe she was the product of that refinement.

Enoch walked with God and was taken up and it seems Mary was highly considered very early in the Church that if she had died and was buried the place would be known. Her assention, if proclaimed might have detracted from the purpose of Christ and Mary would not usurp her Son.

 

[ibkc]

Not sure how they can claim that she is the Queen of Heaven, seeing as that isn’t written in the Bible.

The title has several biblical sources. Mary is mother of the messianic king. Luke 1:32 says of Jesus, He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David. He will rule over the house of Jacob forever and his reign will be without end. It is therefore held in Christianity, that the throne of King David has passed to Jesus. The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the Queen Mother. Since Jesus is heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as Queen Mother.
The Roman Catholic Church also sees Mary crowned as queen in heaven in the Revelation 12, verses 1-5: "1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads." Catholics interpret Psalm 45, “A Song Celebrating the King’s Marriage,” refers to the Messiah, to suggest in verse nine, that Jesus, the Messiah, would have a queen at his right hand. Although Mary was Jesus’ mother, she is often portrayed as that queen. Other views are that Psalm 45 refers to the marriage of Jesus to His people – i.e., the church which is called the “Bride of Christ” or that Psalms 45 is simply a celebration upon the marriage of an earthly king, giving thanks to God but not referring to the Messiah. It is also believed by those assigning a special significance to Mary, and believing in her Annunciation, that in Luke 1:26-35 of the New Testament the Archangel Gabriel seems to praise Mary, although she would otherwise be inferior to him.

 

[adstrinity]

Not sure how they can make the claims about Mary’s assumption into heaven…that is absolutely not in the Bible.

The Catholic’s aren’t the only ones who believe Mary was assumed into Heaven; the Orthodox believe this as well. It was believed in the early Church as I understand.

Look at it this way, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have saints paraphanalia which can be claimed/traced back to a certain saint. The wood of the real cross of the Crucifixion has made the rounds. The bones of certain saints have been preserved. Objects that have touched a saints body are in a lesser way venerated.

IF we are to believe that Mary is the SINLESS MOTHER OF GOD (and this is indeed what the Catholics and Orthodox believe her to be), wouldn’t it have been obvious, considering we knew where St. Peter was burried, and he was just the next guy in charge, to have preserved and venerated and honoured the bones/body of Mary? It would have to the new Jewish cult.

Did you know that the BVM has a tomb? Did you know it is empty? Did you know it is faithfully preserved by clergy from the Armenian Apostolic Church (and I think Greek Orthodox & Catholic as well)?

 

[Prague]

This makes me smile. From Fulton J. Sheen while still Bishop.

Every mother, when she picks up the young life that has been born to her, looks up to the heavens to thank GOD for the gift which made the world young again.
But here was a Mother, a Madonna, who did not look up. She looked down to Heaven, for this was Heaven in her arms.

I love our Mother

 

[COLOS]

This makes me smile. From Fulton J. Sheen while still Bishop.

Every mother, when she picks up the young life that has been born to her, looks up to the heavens to thank GOD for the gift which made the world young again.
But here was a Mother, a Madonna, who did not look up. She looked down to Heaven, for this was Heaven in her arms.

I love our Mother

Beautiful, just beautiful.

Bishop Sheen had a special way of saying things, that’s for sure. Not to detract from this thread, but I recall hearing one of his descriptions of the miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding of Cana. He said, "He ordered the pots filled
with water, and in the language of Crashaw the first miracle was
worked: “the conscious waters saw their God and blushed.”

 

[Prague]

Good luck with RCIA. I am also a teacher in RCIA, and have been to Ok many times.

 

[dolphinlove]

Cant agree with you on this one.
I think by praying to Mary we are asking her to pray with us to God, so he is still receiving all the glory.

 

[COLOS]

I found something interesting a bit ago. It’s what looks to be a type of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I’ll share it here since it relates to the topic of Our Lady’s radiant, God-given glory.

From the Book of Esther:

The dream of Mardochai:

And king Assuerus made all the land, and all the islands of the sea tributary.

10:2 And his strength and his empire, and the dignity and greatness wherewith he exalted Mardochai, are written in the books of the Medes, and of the Persians:

10:3 And how Mardochai of the race of the Jews, was next after king Assuerus: and great among the Jews, and acceptable to the people of his brethren, seeking the good of his people, and speaking those things which were for the welfare of his seed.

10:4 Then Mardochai said: God hath done these things.

10:5 I remember a dream that I saw, which signified these same things: and nothing thereof hath failed.

10:6 The little fountain which grew into a river, and was turned into a light, and into the sun, and abounded into many waters, is Esther, whom the king married, and made queen.

10:7 But the two dragons are I and Aman.

10:8 The nations that were assembled are they that endeavoured to destroy the name of the Jews.

10:9 And my nation is Israel, who cried to the Lord, and the Lord saved his people: and he delivered us from all evils, and hath wrought great signs and wonders among the nations:

10:10 And he commanded that there should be two lots, one of the people of God, and the other of all the nations.

10:11 And both lots came to the day appointed already from that time before God to all nations:

10:12 And the Lord remembered his people, and had mercy on his inheritance.

10:13 And these days shall be observed in the month of Adar on the fourteenth, and fifteenth day of the same month, with all diligence, and joy of the people gathered into one assembly, throughout all the generations hereafter of the people of Israel.

I was reading this and hit verse 6. It seemed to me to be a type of Our Blessed Mother, so I opened the Catholic Encyclopedia and voila!

The foregoing story of Esther is taken from the Book of Esther as found in the Vulgate. Jewish traditions place the tomb of Esther at Hamadân (Ecbatana). The Fathers of the Church considered Esther as a type of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Catholic Encyclopedia: Book of Esther

Sweet! I hadn’t made the connection before. This certainly goes hand-in-hand with the statement “clothed with the sun”.

Also, the name Esther means “star” and/or “happiness”.
Woohoo! I love it!

 

[jen_fla]

Funny thing about Our Blessed Mother: she has so much God-given glory, so much honor from her Son, so much respect from Christians, that it makes the world uncomfortable.

I was thinking today about the incredible glory that Our Lady has been given. It seems as if many protestants think that she has been equated with God Himself by the Church. It’s as if they look at Mary as I used to, “How could she be like God for those Catholics?!” The reality is that God’s glory is as infinite as He is. His Honor exceeds Mary’s honor by an incalculably infinite amount…and that makes people uncomfortable.

It’s not that Mary is so honored, but that her honor has been revealed in a limited way to us and it is very, very high…so that means that the Lord’s glory and honor exceeds hers by an infinitely Godly amount. That fact disturbs people’s hearts and minds. It’s as if protestants view the glory that is Our Blessed Mother’s as the maximum glory possible in all of existence, and therefore only God could have that much.

That, my friend, is the real problem here. We cannot even grasp the extent of God’s own Glory, so we limit Him. We put Him in a box and say, “He can only have this much glory, and the Catholics gave it all to Mary.”

We accept that the Ark of the New Covenant absolutely should be honored. The Lord Himself fulfilled the command to honor thy Father and thy Mother. He fulfilled it in such a perfect way that the world can’t accept what He has done for His (and through Him, our) own Mother.

It seems as if Lord Jesus Christ has been put into a nice little box by their comfortable theology. It’s as if He is seen as nothing more than meek and mild Jesus with a radiant glow waiting for us in heaven. Rarely is He thought of as the Glorious God in front of whom even the disciple which He loved fell as though dead.

Our Blessed Mother is not worshipped like a goddess. [There was a cult (forgot which century they were in) who offered worship to Mary. They were roundly condemned by the Church] Nor is Our Blessed Mother worshipped with the adoration given to God alone. She is venerated with what is known as Hyperdulia. As the Mother of God, she is supreme over all created beings, human and angelic alike. She really is the Queen of Heaven, for her Son is the God of gods, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

The prize which we run toward is honestly beyond the power of our imagination…and that makes people uncomfortable.

**
What do you think?**

*Please don’t attack my God-given Mother.

i think that is a beautiful post!

from the american chesterton society:

"One of the reasons for the Protestant dislike of Catholic art, besides the completely false charge of idolatry, was simply the Puritanical dislike for anything beautiful. But Chesterton suggests that there is something even more sinister about the attack on Mary. In the poem, “A Party Question,” Chesterton actually treats the original Protestant revolt against the Catholic Church very sympathetically, acknowledging full well that the Church was indeed corrupt with “Bad men who had no right to their right reason” who were opposed by “Good men who had good reason to be wrong.” But as that “tangled war” continued, it became more devious. The goal was no longer reform of the Church. It became the destruction of Church. The revolt had lost its innocent anger. It simply started to attack everything about the Catholic Church. When it attacked the Mother of God, Chesterton said the sound was recognizable. It was “a hiss out of hell.”

 

[Lapell]

The biggest problem is that one day the Church made all these decisions about Mary and that was that.

The Church also has declared herself infallible in morals and faith.

Not sure how they can claim that she is the Queen of Heaven, seeing as that isn’t written in the Bible. Blessed are you among women…yes, she is a blessed among women.

Not sure how they can claim she is sinless, that isn’t written in the Bible. The Church seems to make assumptions based upon the names she was called by angels.

Not sure how they can make the claims about Mary’s assumption into heaven…that is absolutely not in the Bible.

Yet God wished that the Blessed Virgin Mary be exempt from this general law. For she, by a completely singular privilege, conquered sin in her Immaculate Conception, and thus was not liable to that law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, nor did she have to wait for the end of time for the redemption of her body"

Not sure how the Pope knew what God wished and I’m not sure how they came to the conclusion that she had to have an immaculate conception.

Oh, the Church had believed those “things” even before they were written officially!
As for Mary being called the Queen of Heaven, the Church didn’t make that up! Read Revelation 12!

 

[Lapell]

Cant agree with you on this one.
I think by praying to Mary we are asking her to pray with us to God, so he is still receiving all the glory.

:harp:

 

[Lapell]

Yet God wished that the Blessed Virgin Mary be exempt from this general law. For she, by a completely singular privilege, conquered sin in her Immaculate Conception, and thus was not liable to that law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, nor did she have to wait for the end of time for the redemption of her body"

Not sure how the Pope knew what God wished and I’m not sure how they came to the conclusion that she had to have an immaculate conception.

Well, can God and sin live together without any destruction bound to happen? And Mary bore God the Son within herself for about 9 months!!!

 

[panoikei]

26 10 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." 29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, 11 and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” 12 35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. 36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived 13 a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; 37 for nothing will be impossible for God.” 38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. 39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed are you who believed 15 that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled." 46 And Mary said: 16 "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; 47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior. 48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. 49 The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. 50 His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him. 51 He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. 52 He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly. 53 The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty. 54 He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy, 55 according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

28 And coming to her, he said, “**Hail, favored one! **The Lord is with you.”
Obvious…but notice the next verse….

29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
It appears that Mary was disturbed by what the Archangel Gabriel said….meaning this is far to great an exaltation for such a lowly woman…

30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
…but the Archangel Gabriel comes back with God favors you…he has lifted her up…

34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” 12
…of course…she’s a virgin…but could there be more meaning in this? I’ll elaborate some other time.

42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women**,** and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Not just “blessed are you…but rather “MOST blessed are you.

48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;** **behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
Not some not just Christians in that generation not just Muslims…but ALL generations. NOW THAT IS BLESSED!!!

Don’t you just love my mother?

 

[SenorSalsa]

The biggest problem is that one day the Church made all these decisions about Mary and that was that.

The Church also has declared herself infallible in morals and faith.

Not sure how they can claim that she is the Queen of Heaven, seeing as that isn’t written in the Bible. Blessed are you among women…yes, she is a blessed among women.

Mary is the Daughter of God the Father, King of Kings
Mary is the Spouse of God the Holy Spirit, King of Kings
Mary is the Mother of God the Son, King of Kings.

She is familiarly related to every person of the Trinity, who is King of Heaven. Any way you slice it, she would have to be the Queen, based on logic of monarchal rule

Not sure how they can claim she is sinless, that isn’t written in the Bible. The Church seems to make assumptions based upon the names she was called by angels.

ill answer this with the immaculate conception one

Not sure how they can make the claims about Mary’s assumption into heaven…that is absolutely not in the Bible.

This, as pointed out before, has been believed from the very start of the Church. It would have been seen. People would have seen the angels descend to lift Mary, body and soul, into Heaven. Having lived out her earthly life, it was time for her to begin her Heavenly life. The wages of sin is death. And as I will explain in the next one, she had no sin, and therefore could not suffer death.

Yet God wished that the Blessed Virgin Mary be exempt from this general law. For she, by a completely singular privilege, conquered sin in her Immaculate Conception

, and thus was not liable to that law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, nor did she have to wait for the end of time for the redemption of her body"

Not sure how the Pope knew what God wished and I’m not sure how they came to the conclusion that she had to have an immaculate conception.

Sin is passed on generationally, that is, we inherit original sin from our parents, as they did from theirs, all the way back to Cain and Abel from Adam and Eve.

Now, if Mary had sin, she would have passed it on to her Son, Jesus. I dont think anyone will argue against the belief that Jesus was sinless.

The only other option is that God would have somehow prevented Mary from passing on her sin. However, if we look to the Old Testament example of the Ark, it had to perfect, without blemish. And as we read in the Gospel of John, Jesus is the Word Incarnate. Therefore, Mary, the Ark(she carries Jesus as the Ark carries the Commandments), must be without blemish, the blemish of sin

 

[COLOS]

i think that is a beautiful post!

Very kind of you!

When it attacked the Mother of God, Chesterton said the sound was recognizable. It was “a hiss out of hell.”

I hadn’t read that statment before. Food for thought.

I have wondered why, as a protestant, I had been conditioned to minimize and forget Our Blessed Mother. Any attack on her must have its source, whether known or unknown, in pure evil. Interesting.

 

[Sepharad]

As a Jewish non-Catholic, I have no problem with Miriam (her real name) at all! I think its very appropriate for people to show her respect, and I think Jesus would want that, because Jewish boys always are close to their mommas, and he would want anyone who likes him, to like her too. I don’t even have a problem with the RC belief that graces come from Jesus through Mary–that makes sense to me, because Jewish boys always do what their mommas tell them to, or what they ask them to do. Remember the marriage at Cana?

But as for praying to her? I think I’d draw the line at that. You can respect and even revere someone without praying to them.