The real reason for abortion and contraception

[Jane_of_Arc]

I cannot answer for him, but I think it is “intrinsically evil” in his opinion. Where did that nonsense come from that one must be “open” to conception in each and every instance of love making? Eating is done partly to sustain oneself, and partly for enjoyment. No one says that the sustenance part “must be there”, and to consume something strictly for the enjoyment is “interinsically evil” (there are good tasting foods with little or no nutritional value). I think that sex really “got on” their mind. Poor suckers.

As usual, one has to turn to Natural Law to discover the truth. (Natural Law = that which we can know by reason alone, without being taught, without being given instruction.) . Do you think that eating “good tasting food” is the primary use of our digestive system. Do you believe that God gave us our taste buds, our very complicated large & small intestines…So that we can stuff ourselves with junk food & sugar?

What do you believe was God’s PRIMARY reason for giving us our sexual organs? IMO. they are ours in order that we will have children. Yes, it’s pleasurable, yes it’s fun…if it weren’t, we be too lazy to indulge, 'cause it’s lots of work, too. ;

 

[Serious]

so there is something wrong with “having fun” and not having children.

You forgot the buzzword: “Not having UNLIMITED number of children.”

And I can’t say that having an STD is exactly unharmful, and many of the contraceptive methods do not protect against STDs.

Nothing is “perfect”. Using more than one method also imporves the protection against unwanted pergnancies.

We do, however, *note *that there are problems with so many being raised outside of marriage. It is a hardship for the mothers, it enables a perpetual immaturity for men, and it is not the best situation for children.

And I agree. You STILL complain about the failure of prevention.

We see that there is damage to the soul, to the conscience, and to the psyche from sexual activity outside of marriage and detached from the possiblity of conception.

And here you are off into la-la land.

Addiitonally, when people have access to birth control which they believe to be reliable, they are less likely to abstain from pre- and extra-marital sex. It is not the possibility of a baby’s conception which is the problem here, but the damage to marriage, both individually and collectively.

Pre-marital sex is normal, and has no ill-effects. Extra-marital sex (cheating) is a completely different matter.

 

[Serious]

As usual, one has to turn to Natural Law to discover the truth. (Natural Law = that which we can know by reason alone, without being taught, without being given instruction.) .

There is no “universal” concept of this. Everything that you believe is good or bad, comes from the upbringing from early childhood. It does not come “naturally”

Do you think that eating “good tasting food” is the primary use of our digestive system. Do you believe that God gave us our taste buds, our very complicated large & small intestines…So that we can stuff ourselves with junk food & sugar?

If it is done once in a while, there is nothing wrong with it.

What do you believe was God’s PRIMARY reason for giving us our sexual organs? IMO. they are ours in order that we will have children. Yes, it’s pleasurable, yes it’s fun…if it weren’t, we be too lazy to indulge, 'cause it’s lots of work, too. ;

Why do you think that only the “primary” reason should be considered?

 

[St_Francis]

You forgot the buzzword: “Not having UNLIMITED number of children.”

Unlimited sex is ok, but “unlimited” children are not?

Oh, I forgot, you have some sort of idea, which is not backed up by your moral foundation, which limits sex. What is your moral foundation for not having “unlimited” sex? How much is “too much”? What’s the line of demarcation?

You forgot the buzzword: “Not having UNLIMITED number of children.”

You forgot: overpopulation is NOT a problem. And children do not come in “unlimited” numbers. Some women can’t have any, other women have only a few, even if they don’t use birth control.

Nothing is “perfect”. Using more than one method also imporves the protection against unwanted pergnancies.

Oh, so now women have to use *two *forms of birth control. Right.

And I agree. You STILL complain about the failure of prevention.

No, I am not complaining about the failure of prevention, I am complaining that people are engaging in sexual activity when they do not want or are not ready to care for the potential natural outcome of that act. Failure of prevention would not be a problem if people did not engage in sexual activity when they were not ready to deal with the consequences of sexual activity.

And here you are off into la-la land.

How so? (Just as a reminder, I wrote:there is damage to the soul, to the conscience, and to the psyche from sexual activity outside of marriage and detached from the possiblity of conception.)

Pre-marital sex is normal, and has no ill-effects.

If you ignore unwanted pregnancy and STDs.

Not to mention the emotional turmoil of relationships and their breakups, the potentials for abuse, the damage to a future marriage, and all the other bad results.

Sure, pre-marital sex has no ill-effects, *if you ignore all the ill-effects! *

Extra-marital sex (cheating) is a completely different matter.

??? Why? If the two people consent and it doesn’t hurt anyone else, what would be wrong with it?

 

[Serious]

Unlimited sex is ok, but “unlimited” children are not?

Actually, there is no unlimited sex. The human body will not allow it. And if there would be unlimited sex without consequences (which is the aim of the contraception, some kinds of which also protect about STD’s, too) it would not cause any problems in society.

You forgot: overpopulation is NOT a problem. And children do not come in “unlimited” numbers. Some women can’t have any, other women have only a few, even if they don’t use birth control.

So what? All that proves is that having few or no children is perfectly fine. If some people do not want to have children - even if they could have, is that all of a sudden a problem? You should choose a line of thought and stick to it.

Oh, so now women have to use *two *forms of birth control. Right.

Well, one form for the woman, and one for the man, to double the security. And also protect against STDs.

No, I am not complaining about the failure of prevention

That is exactly what you are doing.

I am complaining that people are engaging in sexual activity when they do not want or are not ready to care for the potential natural outcome of that act. Failure of prevention would not be a problem if people did not engage in sexual activity when they were not ready to deal with the consequences of sexual activity.

And there is absolutely no reason to stay celibate. If some people want to, it is their business.

How so? (Just as a reminder, I wrote:there is damage to the soul, to the conscience, and to the psyche from sexual activity outside of marriage and detached from the possiblity of conception.)

Empty assertion.

If you ignore unwanted pregnancy and STDs.

How many times will I have to remind you not to bring up the failures of the method to condemn the method. This conversation is getting rather boring.

??? Why? If the two people consent and it doesn’t hurt anyone else, what would be wrong with it?

If they consent that is not cheating. If they do not consent, it is breach of contract, and that is a problem.

 

[St_Francis]

Actually, there is no unlimited sex. The human body will not allow it.

And there are no unlimited babies, either; the human body will not allow it.

And if there would be unlimited sex without consequences (which is the aim of the contraception, some kinds of which also protect about STD’s, too) it would not cause any problems in society.

Because you ignore the other problems…

So what? All that proves is that having few or no children is perfectly fine. If some people do not want to have children - even if they could have, is that all of a sudden a problem? You should choose a line of thought and stick to it.

My “line” is not that children are a problem. Children are only a problem when people engage in the activity which creates them when they do not want the results of that activity.

… That is exactly what you are doing. …How many times will I have to remind you not to bring up the failures of the method to condemn the method.

What are you, my mother? As I have said before, the problem is not the failure of contraception, the problem is engaging in sexual activity when one does not want a child to result. That is what I am “complaining” about.

This conversation is getting rather boring.

Goodbye then.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

And here you are off into la-la land.

Pre-marital sex is normal, and has no ill-effects. Extra-marital sex (cheating) is a completely different matter.

Here is a little example of the harm that comes through pre-marital sex, which is not God’s plan for us.

Take a piece of tape, and put it on your arm. Nice and sticky, right? This is an illustration of the bonding mechanism that God gave us, that sexual intimacy enables. There are hormones that bind us together with anyone we have sex with. Our bodies don’t know that we aren’t married to that person, they respond in any case.

Now, rip that tape off your arm. This is like what happens when two people who have shared sexual intimacy break up. Except breaking up feels a hell of a lot worse than pulling tape off your arm.

Now put the tape back on. You have found another girlfriend or boyfriend, and you bond with her. But the tape is not as sticky as it was the first time, and it’s a little easier to break up because you aren’t as “in love” as you were the first time. Take the tape off again.

Now stick it back. Another sex partner, don’t even bother calling her a girlfriend this time. The tape hardly sticks at all. You have taken what God created to bond you with your wife (or husband) and trashed it. It cannot be re-made. The damage can never be undone.

This is no la-la land, my friend, I LIVED IT. My generation, to a large extent, believed the lie that sex for humans should be like animal sex, no consequences, no problems, no worries. In fact many animal species are more committed than we were. We hopped beds whenever the urge struck. Some still are, what a pity. Some of us got married, had kids and don’t want them to have the pain we finally felt as we realized what God WANTED for us, and what we then destroyed.

It is my VERY FIRM belief that removing sex from its intended framework, which is marriage created by vows to God, is responsible for a lot of the misery in the world today, starting with my own marriage. How can you ever create a marriage of respect for the other person when that aspect was not a part of the original relationship? I mean, a person who is maintaining purity has self-respect and respect for God, and DEMANDS respect from the other person, or if that respect is not forthcoming, the person who is chaste, will then break off contact. I never had that self-respect. Thus, my husband never had that type of respect for me either.

I am probably not explaining this in a clear way, but these things cannot be undone. Once the beautiful gift has been given away, trashed, destroyed, it cannot be brought back. Once, yes. If someone makes a mistake and repents, there is still enough “sticky” on the tape for the husband or wife, although the gift has been damaged. My own son, believes he is now not good enough for a wife who has been pure, because he is not pure. I did not tell him that, it happened when he broke up with that girlfriend and was emotionally damaged. He knows now that what I warned him about was the truth. But his life will never be the same. Thanks be to God, he has been able to share his story with other young men, hopefully they will take something from it and prevent the same pain in their own lives.

There are very far-reaching consequences of our separating creation from sex. 50 million plus babies being murdered is one. 50 million mothers’ lives damaged, can you even begin to comprehend the anguish? Not to leave the fathers out…another 50 million because it takes 2 people (and God) to create life. And those are just the ones who have had abortions. The ones who successfully stopped contraception, have their own form of pain. Some of them cannot conceive. Some have STDs. Some are just shells and no longer know what true love is. Many are addicted to pornography. So many have no idea why they are so messed up, have other addictions, can’t commit to anyone. It can’t be due to the sexual revolution, can it?

Or can it?

 

[Serious]

Here is a little example of the harm that comes through pre-marital sex, which is not God’s plan for us.

Take a piece of tape, and put it on your arm. Nice and sticky, right? This is an illustration of the bonding mechanism that God gave us, that sexual intimacy enables. There are hormones that bind us together with anyone we have sex with. Our bodies don’t know that we aren’t married to that person, they respond in any case. …

Cute parable, but does not apply to everyone. I had two unsuccessful marriages and my wife had one, before we found each other. Our happiness would not have been as great if we did not have our unsuccessful marriages before. One can appreciate the good much more, after having experienced the bad.

It is my VERY FIRM belief that removing sex from its intended framework, which is marriage created by vows to God, is responsible for a lot of the misery in the world today, starting with my own marriage.

Your very firm belief is just a belief. For some people one partner is the best solution. For others it is not. You should not advocate a “one size fits all”, because it is simply not the case.

There are very far-reaching consequences of our separating creation from sex. 50 million plus babies being murdered is one…

You play the same card as St Francis. If those 50 million conceptions would not have happened due to reliable contrception the whole question would be moot. You cannot criticize a method for blaming it when it is not applied.

The ones who successfully stopped contraception, have their own form of pain. Some of them cannot conceive.

It can happen… but it is a rare exception and not the norm.

Some have STDs.

Again, a failure of protection. You also blame the method for when it fails. And you blame some side effects.

Try a different approach. Start from real life. People love each other, and are not ready for a child yet. Therefore they use some form of contraception (it could even be simple, old fashioned oral sex, or extra-vaginal sex or some artificial method). There are no side effects. There are no STD’s. Just two people, who are faithful to each other, who simply do not wish to have children for the time bing. And starting from this scenario, show me where the problems are. Deal with the actual method, and not when the method is not applied, or when it is not applied correctly. That is the challenge. Want to pick up the glove?

 

[JimG]

Here is a little example of the harm that comes through pre-marital sex, which is not God’s plan for us.

Take a piece of tape, and put it on your arm. Nice and sticky, right? This is an illustration of the bonding mechanism that God gave us, that sexual intimacy enables. There are hormones that bind us together with anyone we have sex with. Our bodies don’t know that we aren’t married to that person, they respond in any case.

Now, rip that tape off your arm. This is like what happens when two people who have shared sexual intimacy break up. Except breaking up feels a hell of a lot worse than pulling tape off your arm.

Now put the tape back on. You have found another girlfriend or boyfriend, and you bond with her. But the tape is not as sticky as it was the first time, and it’s a little easier to break up because you aren’t as “in love” as you were the first time. Take the tape off again.

Now stick it back. Another sex partner, don’t even bother calling her a girlfriend this time. The tape hardly sticks at all. You have taken what God created to bond you with your wife (or husband) and trashed it. It cannot be re-made. The damage can never be undone.

This is no la-la land, my friend, I LIVED IT. My generation, to a large extent, believed the lie that sex for humans should be like animal sex, no consequences, no problems, no worries. In fact many animal species are more committed than we were. We hopped beds whenever the urge struck. Some still are, what a pity. Some of us got married, had kids and don’t want them to have the pain we finally felt as we realized what God WANTED for us, and what we then destroyed.

It is my VERY FIRM belief that removing sex from its intended framework, which is marriage created by vows to God, is responsible for a lot of the misery in the world today, starting with my own marriage. How can you ever create a marriage of respect for the other person when that aspect was not a part of the original relationship? I mean, a person who is maintaining purity has self-respect and respect for God, and DEMANDS respect from the other person, or if that respect is not forthcoming, the person who is chaste, will then break off contact. I never had that self-respect. Thus, my husband never had that type of respect for me either.

I am probably not explaining this in a clear way, but these things cannot be undone. Once the beautiful gift has been given away, trashed, destroyed, it cannot be brought back. Once, yes. If someone makes a mistake and repents, there is still enough “sticky” on the tape for the husband or wife, although the gift has been damaged. My own son, believes he is now not good enough for a wife who has been pure, because he is not pure. I did not tell him that, it happened when he broke up with that girlfriend and was emotionally damaged. He knows now that what I warned him about was the truth. But his life will never be the same. Thanks be to God, he has been able to share his story with other young men, hopefully they will take something from it and prevent the same pain in their own lives.

There are very far-reaching consequences of our separating creation from sex. 50 million plus babies being murdered is one. 50 million mothers’ lives damaged, can you even begin to comprehend the anguish? Not to leave the fathers out…another 50 million because it takes 2 people (and God) to create life. And those are just the ones who have had abortions. The ones who successfully stopped contraception, have their own form of pain. Some of them cannot conceive. Some have STDs. Some are just shells and no longer know what true love is. Many are addicted to pornography. So many have no idea why they are so messed up, have other addictions, can’t commit to anyone. It can’t be due to the sexual revolution, can it?

Or can it?

I think you explained it very well. The sexual revolution has had disastrous consequences for society. That’s why I keep recommending Mary Eberstadt’s book “Adam & Even After the Pill,” which documents the consequences in detail. The bad effects have been piling up for decades, but sex without consequences is a powerful incentive for denial of the obvious.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Cute parable, but does not apply to everyone. I had two unsuccessful marriages and my wife had one, before we found each other. Our happiness would not have been as great if we did not have our unsuccessful marriages before. One can appreciate the good much more, after having experienced the bad.

Your very firm belief is just a belief. For some people one partner is the best solution. For others it is not. You should not advocate a “one size fits all”, because it is simply not the case.

You play the same card as St Francis. If those 50 million conceptions would not have happened due to reliable contrception the whole question would be moot. You cannot criticize a method for blaming it when it is not applied.

It can happen… but it is a rare exception and not the norm.

Again, a failure of protection. You also blame the method for when it fails. And you blame some side effects.

Try a different approach. Start from real life. People love each other, and are not ready for a child yet. Therefore they use some form of contraception (it could even be simple, old fashioned oral sex, or extra-vaginal sex or some artificial method). There are no side effects. There are no STD’s. Just two people, who are faithful to each other, who simply do not wish to have children for the time bing. And starting from this scenario, show me where the problems are. Deal with the actual method, and not when the method is not applied, or when it is not applied correctly. That is the challenge. Want to pick up the glove?

Nah, because I see things through the Catholic lens. Most of what you posted is not what Catholics believe in, what our Church teaches is right for us, what God commanded. You argue from your POV, which is 180 from mine. God gave us sex in order to create life, not just for the pleasure. That’s where we part ways. God wants us to have sex, inside marriage with the openness to creating life. Not just for grins and giggles. When we line up with what He wants for us, things just work out a whole lot better.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I think you explained it very well. The sexual revolution has had disastrous consequences for society. That’s why I keep recommending Mary Eberstadt’s book “Adam & Even After the Pill,” which documents the consequences in detail. The bad effects have been piling up for decades, but sex without consequences is a powerful incentive for denial of the obvious.

I have it in my cart at Amazon.



You can’t get through to people if they don’t experience it themselves. Thankfully, my son understands now…Of course I didn’t want him to have to understand from the inside. I could not tell him about my own past, but I tried to warn him as best I could. He couldn’t listen. Once the bond had broken, along with his heart, then he saw what I had been trying to tell him all along.

But until he understood, he couldn’t understand.

 

[JimG]

I have it in my cart at Amazon.



You can’t get through to people if they don’t experience it themselves. Thankfully, my son understands now…Of course I didn’t want him to have to understand from the inside. I could not tell him about my own past, but I tried to warn him as best I could. He couldn’t listen. Once the bond had broken, along with his heart, then he saw what I had been trying to tell him all along.

But until he understood, he couldn’t understand.

Even though pre-marital sex appeals to humans because it seems to offer sex with no consequences, in fact there are always consequences. Your example of the sticky tape was a good one. And no contraceptive can protect against a broken heart. For many decades now we have gotten into the habit of allowing our bodies to make promises that our hearts and minds do not intend to keep. And that leads to many a tragedy.

 

[Serious]

Nah, because I see things through the Catholic lens. Most of what you posted is not what Catholics believe in, what our Church teaches is right for us, what God commanded. You argue from your POV, which is 180 from mine. God gave us sex in order to create life, not just for the pleasure. That’s where we part ways. God wants us to have sex, inside marriage with the openness to creating life. Not just for grins and giggles. When we line up with what He wants for us, things just work out a whole lot better.

Well, you were honest, I appreciate that. If I read you correctly, then you cannot bring up any SECULAR arguments against contraception ITSELF. You arguments would all be religious, catholic ones - which is fine, of course.

Though I find something peculiar. You said “most of what I posted is not what catholics believe in”. Does it apply to the premise: “two people, let’s say married, who love each other, but do not wish to have a child for the time being, maybe because they cannot afford to give that child a good enough upbringing”? Is there something wrong with this starting point? Just curious.

 

[Nate13]

Well, you were honest, I appreciate that. If I read you correctly, then you cannot bring up any SECULAR arguments against contraception ITSELF. You arguments would all be religious, catholic ones - which is fine, of course.

Though I find something peculiar. You said “most of what I posted is not what catholics believe in”. Does it apply to the premise: “two people, let’s say married, who love each other, but do not wish to have a child for the time being, maybe because they cannot afford to give that child a good enough upbringing”? Is there something wrong with this starting point? Just curious.

Notice the title says “contraception” not “birth control”. The Church acknowledges there are serious reasons by which a couple may justly wish to prevent having a child at that time i.e “control birth”. So the direct answer to your question would be no, there is nothing wrong with your premise. What the Church has a problem with is the method by which people go about bringing this end/intent to fruition.

For instance getting money to feed my family is a good end/intent, but that does not mean any method I choose to achieve that end is ok. Stealing the money would be a immoral method of going about achieving that good end for instance. Thus while controlling birth may be a good intent in many cases, that is only part of the equation in determining the morality of an act.

Contraception is an immoral method of bringing this intent about because it contradicts the inherent human nature we have because we were created in God’s image and likeness. There is more to respecting inherent human dignity during sex than making sure all our acts are “consensual”. I assume you agree with this statement to some extent unless you support legalizing prostitution.

 

[Serious]

Contraception is an immoral method of bringing this intent about because it contradicts the inherent human nature we have because we were created in God’s image and likeness.

I was curious if there are any SECULAR arguments. I heard all the religious ones. So far I did not hear any secular arguments, and I don’t expect to hear one.

There is more to respecting inherent human dignity during sex than making sure all our acts are “consensual”. I assume you agree with this statement to some extent unless you support legalizing prostitution.

I don’t agree because I see nothing wrong with legalizing prostitution. As I said before, my moral code is very simple: “The rights of my fist ends where your nose begins”. Translation: “I respect you and your decisions, and wish to get the same respect”.

 

[slate]

first of all, I hate it when christians get sucked into the “womans right” false argument when discussing these topics… The “womans right” arguement is a trap and a lie. The real reason behind these two evils that no one talks about and should more is that abortion and contraception eliminate the consequences of fornication and adultery We live in a highly adulterous fornicating world. Really, who supports this stuff but those who want to have umlimited sex partners or married men/women who dont want to get caught. A world where people are told to have sex whenever and with whomever and no wonder the newer generations usually support these things. Shame on you World! The world loves fornication, and dare a pregnancy should stand in the way of some worldly fun. Shame on you, World.!!! Shame on you world, that a baby is slaughtered for the price of fornicating and adulterous parents… Jesus was not and did not beat around the bush to explain something or to rebuke something. Oftentimes he brought shame unto his opponents. When discussing these hot topics we should not let ourselves be spinned into false arguments such womens rights, but not hesitate to speak the real reason behind these issues. Shame works! Calling shame “SHAME” was an effective tool for Jesus.

my two cents
in Christ

I always thought the issue was to avoid the burden of children. For instance, I used birth control early in my life to lessen the chances of having a child so I could have more free time, go to school, build a relationship, and a career. Could this have been accomplished with a child? Yes, but it would have been more difficult, sacrificing time and money to raise that child.

At the point where I am in my life now, I have enough support where I can raise a child responsibly, providing the best for that child. So, soon I hope to start a small family of my own. Why should I not have used contraception if contraception was safe and effective (which has been for me for many years) ?

 

[slate]

I was curious if there are any SECULAR arguments. I heard all the religious ones. So far I did not hear any secular arguments, and I don’t expect to hear one.

In a location where more population growth is needed, like Russia (last I checked), preventing birth may be considered a burden on society, which can be viewed as immoral.

 

[Serious]

In a location where more population growth is needed, like Russia (last I checked), preventing birth may be considered a burden on society, which can be viewed as immoral.

Only by those who consider that individuals are the “property” of the society. In Brave New World there was a slogan: “After all everyone belongs to everyone else”.

 

[Crumpy]

There are consequences to fornication and adultery that are not eliminated by contraception and/or abortion.

The majority of contraception/sterilization users that I know are monogamous married couples, and those few people I know who have considered abortion have been married and looking at a child with a genetic disease. (I do not support abortion of children, so don’t assume that.)

I spoke with a young man (who was Methodist at the time) and he advocated using birth control. Yet, he claimed that he was open to having children – at the same time. So, he found these two ideas to be compatible.

 

[slate]

Only by those who consider that individuals are the “property” of the society. In Brave New World there was a slogan: “After all everyone belongs to everyone else”.

To a degree, societal demands drive morality / law imo. Do you disagree?