The Reality of Hell

[Petaro]

I have read the discussion of the thread and find I cannot know who enters heaven. We have the promises of Christ. I hope I am worthy to rely on them. I have confessed my sins at confession. According to my conscience I have not sinned mortally since, due to continual prayer for support from my guardian angel assisted by the intercession of my Mother,( and my mum and dad,) My prayer now is for the reparation of my sins and my soul along with those I sinned with in life.
I leave the question as to who enters Hell to the loving, just, but most merciful mind of God, however I trust in the Holy , Catholic, Apostolic and Universal Church, being established by Jesus, to avail against the gates of Hell so that the hope of Jesus that all men may be saved will be brought to fruition.
It is good to discuss the theology of the Church in her statements on the doctrine of Hell, however when it comes to paring up the population between the sheep and the goats before God’s good time at the last judgement, I feel we go too far from our brief.
I consider the escatological issues on a personal basis and again it is based solely on the mercy of Jesus that I can have any faith in my own salvation, and must leave the fate of others to His mercy also.

 

[Brendan_64]

No Richard, I’m still following the thread, but can see no point in arguing. We must just agree to differ.
Nothing will ever make me believe that only Catholics go to heaven!!!
I believe that there are many mansions in heaven and many paths to Our Blessed Lord, whether or not we call Him by a different name, worship in a different way or have beliefs which differ from those of Catholics. If people lead good lives, love their God and follow the essence of his commandments, they will be with him forever in Heaven. Why else would God have made us (NOT just Catholics). I respect those of other Faiths and wish I could be as good a person as so many of them are.
Just out of interest, where does it say in the Bible that “Only Catholics will go to Heaven”

In the end it does not matter what you believe or not. The truth is the truth, and the truth is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in other Church documents. As Catholics we are bound by every single teaching in the Catechism and in other binding documents and decrees, every single teaching without deviation. If we believe something different then we must accept that what we believe is wrong and obediently submit to what our Church teaches. As for needing to see things explicitly stated in the Bible, that is not how our Faith operates, we are not sola scriptura, we are scripture plus tradition. If our Church teaches it then it is truth, regardless or not it is specifically stated in the Bible, our Church interprets scripture for us, it is in our Church that authority resides. Christ founded a Church, not a book, and He gave our Church, through Peter, the authority to bind and loose.

Pius IX put it succinctly in Vatican I

“We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?”

This was again reiterated in Vatican II, and is what our Church teaches. Yes there are elements of truth to be found in other Christian denominations, but the truth in their faiths result from a ‘ripple out’ effect originating from the one true Church, the Catholic Church. And then of course there is invincible ignorance.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

So while you do not have to categorically be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved (that is a Feeneyist position) it is through the Catholic Church that people may be saved. It is possible for those outside the Church to be saved, but they are at a very distinct disadvantage, and the further away from the Church people are, the greater their disadvantage.

But all faiths are not equal, they are not all just different paths to the same destination. It is not just about being a ‘good person’ (although that certainly helps). There is only one true Church. Christ did not come and say, “Follow whatever faith you wish and so long as you are a good person and treat your fellow man well, then all will be OK”. Christ commanded that we follow Him, and He founded a Church on Earth to be the vehicle for Salvation, the Catholic Church.

The first of Christ’s Greatest Commandments was love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. There is only one God, there is only one true Church. Pope Francis has recently said that you cannot truly love Christ unless you love the Church.

All faiths are not equivalent, absolutely not. It is not simply about being a ‘good person’.

 

[codefro]

In the end it does not matter what you believe or not. The truth is the truth, and the truth is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in other Church documents. As Catholics we are bound by every single teaching in the Catechism and in other binding documents and decrees, every single teaching without deviation. If we believe something different then we must accept that what we believe is wrong and obediently submit to what our Church teaches. As for needing to see things explicitly stated in the Bible, that is not how our Faith operates, we are not sola scriptura, we are scripture plus tradition. If our Church teaches it then it is truth, regardless or not it is specifically stated in the Bible, our Church interprets scripture for us, it is in our Church that authority resides. Christ founded a Church, not a book, and He gave our Church, through Peter, the authority to bind and loose.

Pius IX put it succinctly in Vatican I

“We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?”

This was again reiterated in Vatican II, and is what our Church teaches. Yes there are elements of truth to be found in other Christian denominations, but the truth in their faiths result from a ‘ripple out’ effect originating from the one true Church, the Catholic Church. And then of course there is invincible ignorance.

So while you do not have to categorically be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved (that is a Feeneyist position) it is through the Catholic Church that people may be saved. It is possible for those outside the Church to be saved, but they are at a very distinct disadvantage, and the further away from the Church people are, the greater their disadvantage.

But all faiths are not equal, they are not all just different paths to the same destination. It is not just about being a ‘good person’ (although that certainly helps). There is only one true Church. Christ did not come and say, “Follow whatever faith you wish and so long as you are a good person and treat your fellow man well, then all will be OK”. Christ commanded that we follow Him, and He founded a Church on Earth to be the vehicle for Salvation, the Catholic Church.

The first of Christ’s Greatest Commandments was love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. There is only one God, there is only one true Church. Pope Francis has recently said that you cannot truly love Christ unless you love the Church.

All faiths are not equivalent, absolutely not. It is not simply about being a ‘good person’.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

Very cool response Brendan

 

[Richard_White]

In the end it does not matter what you believe or not. The truth is the truth, and the truth is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in other Church documents. As Catholics we are bound by every single teaching in the Catechism and in other binding documents and decrees, every single teaching without deviation. If we believe something different then we must accept that what we believe is wrong and obediently submit to what our Church teaches. As for needing to see things explicitly stated in the Bible, that is not how our Faith operates, we are not sola scriptura, we are scripture plus tradition. If our Church teaches it then it is truth, regardless or not it is specifically stated in the Bible, our Church interprets scripture for us, it is in our Church that authority resides. Christ founded a Church, not a book, and He gave our Church, through Peter, the authority to bind and loose.

Pius IX put it succinctly in Vatican I

“We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?”

This was again reiterated in Vatican II, and is what our Church teaches. Yes there are elements of truth to be found in other Christian denominations, but the truth in their faiths result from a ‘ripple out’ effect originating from the one true Church, the Catholic Church. And then of course there is invincible ignorance.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

So while you do not have to categorically be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved (that is a Feeneyist position) it is through the Catholic Church that people may be saved. It is possible for those outside the Church to be saved, but they are at a very distinct disadvantage, and the further away from the Church people are, the greater their disadvantage.

But all faiths are not equal, they are not all just different paths to the same destination. It is not just about being a ‘good person’ (although that certainly helps). There is only one true Church. Christ did not come and say, “Follow whatever faith you wish and so long as you are a good person and treat your fellow man well, then all will be OK”. Christ commanded that we follow Him, and He founded a Church on Earth to be the vehicle for Salvation, the Catholic Church.

The first of Christ’s Greatest Commandments was love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. There is only one God, there is only one true Church. Pope Francis has recently said that you cannot truly love Christ unless you love the Church.

All faiths are not equivalent, absolutely not. It is not simply about being a ‘good person’.

May God bless you forever!

 

[thistle]

**This has to be one of the most intolerant, cruel and bigoted things I’ve ever read! **This sort of attitude is what turns so many against the Church. What do you imagine Pope Francis would think about it?

I don’t see why you would say that because that is what the Church teaches. Let’s see what that means.

The Church teaches that there is NO salvation outside the Catholic Church and that baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but not necessarily sufficient on its own because dying in a state of grace is required to be saved).

How then is a person within the Catholic Church and baptised?

1. Sacramentally baptised a Catholic.
2. Graces of sacramental baptism received through:

• Baptism of blood ( a non-Catholic who chooses to die for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explicit (those who actively desire to be baptised, eg a catechumen)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance under which those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but in that ignorance live a good live in accordance with Christ’s teachings MAY (not will) be saved.

Outside the above there is no salvation.

 

[theCrow]

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.

 

[Darryl_B]

I don’t see why you would say that because that is what the Church teaches. Let’s see what that means.

The Church teaches that there is NO salvation outside the Catholic Church and that baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but not necessarily sufficient on its own because dying in a state of grace is required to be saved).

How then is a person within the Catholic Church and baptised?

1. Sacramentally baptised a Catholic.
2. Graces of sacramental baptism received through:

• Baptism of blood ( a non-Catholic who chooses to die for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explicit (those who actively desire to be baptised, eg a catechumen)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance under which those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but in that ignorance live a good live in accordance with Christ’s teachings MAY (not will) be saved.

Outside the above there is no salvation.

I remember my uncle, who has since passed away, once made the appeal to me that he had lived a good honest life, and so if there is a God, that He will surely see how he lived, and judge him right or wrong according to that, that while he was not Christian, he had lived his life along similar guidelines.

I would consider my uncle to have been an agnostic.

But I am not so sure that is how God works. With that mentality I can see that Jesus Christ suffered and died in vain, almost redundant to our salvation. If we could all be agnostic we could all be saved.

On the other hand I listen to phrases such as cruel, intolerant, and bigoted for not smiling on this agnostic position. Is that just modern even modernism? If I left everyone who thought they lived a semi-christian life, but without God in their life, should I really just be happy for them and care no more for their souls?

Paul, standing in an amphitheatre, before hundreds of gentiles, boldly proclaims, ladies and gentleman, today I stand before you and, just be good okay.

 

[Darryl_B]

This sort of attitude is what turns so many against the Church.

In my country, the Anglican church, opened up it’s doors to anything. What happened is no one came in and many walked out, so much so that for the first time since my countries original census the Catholic Church is now larger than the Anglican church. So please do not tell me that Catholics who believe in the Catholic faith are turning people against the Catholic Church, instead the Catholic Church is a haven with wings open for people who want more than that, people who want a rock

 

[Brendan_64]

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.

Pope Francis did say that, but he stated that Christ died to redeem all men, which is true, that is simply what the Church has always taught. However redemption and salvation are very different things. Christ’s blood redeemed all men and opened the gates of Heaven, but redemption is not the same as salvation. Christ’s Church exists as the only vehicle for the salvation of men.

 

[Genesis315]

No Richard, I’m still following the thread, but can see no point in arguing. We must just agree to differ.
Nothing will ever make me believe that only Catholics go to heaven!!!
I believe that there are many mansions in heaven and many paths to Our Blessed Lord, whether or not we call Him by a different name, worship in a different way or have beliefs which differ from those of Catholics. If people lead good lives, love their God and follow the essence of his commandments, they will be with him forever in Heaven. Why else would God have made us (NOT just Catholics). I respect those of other Faiths and wish I could be as good a person as so many of them are.
Just out of interest, where does it say in the Bible that “Only Catholics will go to Heaven”

Here’s just a couple of the many examples where Pope Francis says the opposite of what you do. Maybe you will listen to him, if not your fellow Catholics here:
Pope Francis:

Thirdly, professing. We can walk as much as we want, we can build many things, but if we do not profess Jesus Christ, things go wrong. We may become a charitable NGO, but not the Church, the Bride of the Lord. When we are not walking, we stop moving. When we are not building on the stones, what happens? The same thing that happens to children on the beach when they build sandcastles: everything is swept away, there is no solidity. When we do not profess Jesus Christ, the saying of Léon Bloy comes to mind: “Anyone who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil.” When we do not profess Jesus Christ, we profess the worldliness of the devil, a demonic worldliness.
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/homilies/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130314_omelia-cardinali.html

Pope Francis:

1. In this sense, one’s thought goes in the first place, with gratitude, to those who went before us and who welcomed us into the Church. No one becomes Christian on his or her own! Is that clear? No one becomes Christian by him- or herself. Christians are not made in a laboratory. A Christian is part of a people who comes from afar. The Christian belongs to a people called the Church and this Church is what makes him or her Christian, on the day of Baptism, and then in the course of catechesis, and so on. But no one, no one becomes Christian on his or her own.

---

1. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no “do it yourself”, there are no “free agents”. How many times did Pope Benedict “describe the Church as an ecclesial ‘we’”! At times one hears someone say: “I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don’t care about the Church…”. How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies.

---

Dear friends, let us ask the Lord, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church, for the grace never to fall into the temptation of thinking we can make it without the others, that we can get along without the Church, that we can save ourselves on our own, of being Christians from the laboratory. On the contrary, you cannot love God without loving your brothers, you cannot love God outside of the Church; you cannot be in communion with God without being so in the Church, and we cannot be good Christians if we are not together with those who seek to follow the Lord Jesus, as one single people, one single body, and this is the Church. Thank you.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20140625_udienza-generale.html

 

[Godspells]

Hi everyone, just curious for some thoughts. I was surfing posts about Hell on the forum and thinking about the topic. Does anybody else think that the Magisterium has a little more guidance to provide as to the reality and possible destination of souls in Hell? It seems that Catholics can’t really give an agreeing answer when people come asking about Hell.

I mean… what do we know? Christ spoke of its existence. He said some people will go there. Wide is the road that leads to it. “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus” becomes a dogma in the Church. The Church uses this dogma as a guide to point the way to Heaven. The Church mostly interprets it literally for a few thousand years, then reanalyzes the dogma when the Americas are discovered (someone can fact check me on that). In Vatican II salvation to God and from Hell is fleshed out. God will not condemn someone to Hell who genuinely does not know that God desires them to physically be in His Holy Catholic Church. Catechism reiterates. That’s really it.

Catholics then disagree on minor points when it comes to this. Some say:

“It doesn’t matter if you are Catholic or not, just be a good person.”

“Nobody can go to Hell because who would deny what they don’t know?”

“What loving God would send someone to Hell and deny His presence with them for eternity?”

and then there is the Feenyite Catholic (who I happen to know some) who say:

“Only a valid Catholic in good standing with the Holy See can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” (which correct me if I am wrong, but the feenyite position has not been condemned as an outright heresy).

So… does the Catholic Church need to understand the parameters a little more on this issue for the sake of clarity (and maybe for the sake of the salvation of souls)?

Hi, so, I wanted to give my perspective on this, because it is probably the topic I’ve been most interested in of late.

The doctrine of universal reconciliation, as I understand it, is considered heretical as it is taught dogmatically. The concept of Origenism which essentially teaches that hell is really purgatory, and ultimately everyone, even Satan and his demons will be reconciled, is not accepted by the Church or any mainline denomination.

However, if I’m not mistaken, the Church has also come out and said that it is not an article of faith to believe that anyone is in hell or that anyone will go there. In a sense this is a sort of “hopeful universalism” and one which I personally apply to as I can at present time see no other way for the purpose of the Cross to be fulfilled other than that God will be “all in all”.

Much of my beliefs about heaven and hell have come from Eastern theology and this is how I see it. I do not think that hell is, strictly speaking, different the heaven as to physical location or dimension. Nor do I believe the devil “presides” over hell. God did not cast Satan out of heaven and install him as the king of hell. Satan is not omnipotent, nor omnipresent, nor is he timeless as God is. So, as it pertains to the passage “eternal punishment” or “eternal fire” as I see it, since the description of it is the same how heaven is described (eternal) hell is not physically different than heaven.

In that case, what I believe is that hell is the terminal state of unrepentant sin. From birth until death, you have the time to align your will with that of God’s, which necessarily requires seeking truth, doing good, and refraining from evil. If you don’t do this, if your will is contrary to God, the worst punishment you could endure would be being in the presence of the Almighty. The devil then, being the “prince of hell” I think really represents what is the will that is fully contrary to God’s.