The Reality of How Trans People are Treated

[latin_rite]

Some comments about the murder commited by Andrade:

(CNN’s legal blog)

buster brown April 20th, 2009 10:20 pm ET
The THING got what IT deserved!!! I cannot believe a man is on trial for this.

Jason April 19th, 2009 2:23 pm ET
This was a reaction to a disgusting deceit bordering by abomination, arousing a negative passion with almost every normal person.

Tim April 19th, 2009 8:37 pm ET
I am a gay man and I hope that the defendant is not convicted of murder. You cannot deceive people like this and then expect them not to be pissed.

Will Sheldon April 20th, 2009 9:03 am ET
If I meet a woman and that turned out to be a man, that person will be in grave physical danger from me.

John April 20th, 2009 11:14 am ET
I don’t know why society goes along with this form of biological fraud. Gender goes down to DNA level; fiddling with the plumbing doesn’t change it.

Sebaschen Shaw April 20th, 2009 12:22 pm ET
i feel the offender should not be held reponsible for his action all because angie is really justin. He was born a male. It is actually a case of deception, any normal and sane person would of reacted the same way. I wish i was appointed jury duty to this case.

From the main CNN forum:

Caleb April 17th, 2009 12:09 pm ET
I feel for the accused…I’d vote not guilty on all charges…that thing was asking for it. HE got what HE deserved for pretending to be a girl.

ed April 17th, 2009 12:09 pm ET
the defendant beat justin to death he didnt shoot or stab him. i would have done the same thing we need laws to prevent gays from doing this to people. society thinks homosexualty is ok that dont make it not a sin. approval is a JUDGEMENT as well as saying its wrong and sick.

Jeffery Rogers April 17th, 2009 2:13 pm ET
re-criminalize these deviants, have them register as sexual deviant persons, rescind the gay rights laws and put morality back into a well ordered society. By the way any crime against persons has an element of hate so hate crime laws are bogus.

Lord Is My Shepard April 17th, 2009 2:22 pm ET
The Lord Works in mysterious ways.

Mark April 17th, 2009 2:37 pm ET
How can you not tell that this a man? To me he just exterminated one more peice of human garbage,

Josh April 17th, 2009 3:44 pm ET
If the defendant was lied to by the victim then i completely support the defendant and feel no remorse for the victim at all and belive the defendant should be set free.

Brian April 17th, 2009 3:47 pm ET
Shouldn’t Justin be posthumously charged with a hate crime too? I think so.

isa April 17th, 2009 1:56 pm ET
I feel sorry for the defendatnt. I don’t think this was a hate crime. I hope he isn’t convicted of murder.

cea April 17th, 2009 10:40 am ET
Justifiable homicide…….

Michael Link April 17th, 2009 11:04 am ET
If it can be proven that Justin intentionally hid his sexual identity from Allen, then it is should be involuntary manslaughter.

David April 17th, 2009 12:04 pm ET
Wow, If it was a surprise you cant put the guy away for 1st degree. I cant say I wouldnt seriously harm someone in that situation.

Jose B April 17th, 2009 3:36 pm ET
It lied to him. Yes, he over reacted and killed it which he shouldn’t have, however if JP didn’t lie to him, they wouldn’t have met to begin with. This is not a hate crime but a crime.

Now, since you’re so certain that the (as it turned out alive and well) victim is male… perhaps you’d give me a definition. Or something easier, since my medical history is there for all the world to see on the other threads, what sex do you say I am?

Well according to your post. it was a male. And i neither know nor care what sex you are. it’s irrelevant. And i certainly don’t care enough to go chasing it up on the net. And whats with all the quotes? Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else. I don’t…know

 

[St_Francis]

It seems that the murderer of Angie Zapata not only knew ahead of time, but had actually “met” her on a site for transsexuals. I read speculations about his motivation for doing all this, but haven’t seen any facts about it, but I do think that what he did should not have been done to anyone, no matter what their gender identity, sexual identity, color, religion, ethnic origin, or anything else.

This was a heinous crime altogether, and my only thoughts on his sentence are that it’s too bad he couldn’t have gotten a harsher punishment, but he got the highest he could get, and he got it for the crime itself.

 

[aspawloski4th]

It seems that the murderer of Angie Zapata not only knew ahead of time, but had actually “met” her on a site for transsexuals. I read speculations about his motivation for doing all this, but haven’t seen any facts about it, but I do think that what he did should not have been done to anyone, no matter what their gender identity, sexual identity, color, religion, ethnic origin, or anything else.

This was a heinous crime altogether, and my only thoughts on his sentence are that it’s too bad he couldn’t have gotten a harsher punishment, but he got the highest he could get, and he got it for the crime itself.

If it were up to me. That murderer would have gotten hung or the firing squad.

 

[St_Francis]

If it were up to me. That murderer would have gotten hung or the firing squad.

Me too, but I didn’t want to open up the death penalty debate.

 

[Drawmack]

I’m not so sure. Research has increasingly shown that expression of genetic traits depends on environment. Epigenetics may very well have to do with transsexual origin, especially in utero. I think some of the research which Zoe has posted points in this direction.

What research?

 

[nsper7]

From a forum I’m on:

The next time someone says “A Hate Crimes Bill is anti-Christian”, that “there is no evidence of a problem”, I am going to have to really, really, really work on my charity, my capacity to forgive, to see anothers viewpoint.

The next time someone says that Trans people are rebelling against God, are inherently sinful, and have brought this treatment upon themselves, likewise.

This happened within the last 24 hours you see - hasn’t made the papers, and as it’s just another killing of a transsexual girl, probably won’t. Most don’t. What was it, 28 last year, only 11 publicised?

I broke down at the Transgender Day of Remembrance last year, when I came to the name of one of the victims. Only 10 years old. I forget how long the list is now, 17 pages I think, more every year, and in the USA, the rate is increasing.

Yes, I know it’s a mark of the Fall, but I am getting really, really tired of Catholics and other Christians AIDING AND ABETTING THIS. They deny it, to themselves and to others, but many call for violence. Some participate. Far more don’t do it - they just stay silent when others do. That is aiding. That is abetting. I’m not saying a single Catholic was in the attacking gang. I am saying that there are many Catholics who would just shrug their shoulders and say “The Wages of Sin is Death” and walk away.

For more on such issues see What is the Church’s position on the Intersexed and Transsexed? and Transsexualism : why is it so despised?.

Please don’t comment about how it’s nothing to do with the Church, it’s Man’s Sinful nature etc etc. I know that. I’ve heard it many times before. I’ve heard it so often, usually immediately followed by condemnation of those born (through no fault of their own) neither wholly male nor wholly female in body, that forgive me but I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the hypocrisy and denial. The aiding and abetting.

If I hear one more tale of a Catholic Priest advising a transsexual woman to go home and commit suicide to avoid public scandal, I will really need to sit down and work on my forgiveness even more. How I should pray for those who have lost their way. How of course advising someone to commit a mortal sin is contrary to all Catholic belief yada yada yada. Yes I know, and “no true priest” would ever do that. Well if so, there’s hundreds of false ones. If you tell me there isn’t a systemic problem here, pull the other leg, it’s got bells on. Yes, the problem may be worse in some Protestant sects, I’m aware of that. That’s irrelevant.

I need to let go of my anger. I need to follow His teachings, even though I’m no Christian, and tears are falling on the keyboard as I write this. I’ve heard too many stories like this one, it’s happened too often.

Please, no more denial. No more turning away. No more aiding and abetting.

I don’t see how hate crimes legislation will stop people from committing murder. After all, if someone is going to commit murder and face the major penalties for such a crime (i.e. the death penalty or life in prison), how is tacking on a hate crimes charge to the criminal going to alter their behavior.

If by hate crimes laws you mean trying to limit people’s speech, that sort of goes against the Constitution (in America at least) and only forces people underground, but again, if someone is willing to murder for their views, will telling them they can’t talk about it change much. Just as people are free to verbally bash and trash Catholicism (and they do), they are free to verbally bash and trash transsexuals and everything else under the sun. Obviously, if their verbal actions become physical, then they have violated the law and should be prosecuted.

Also, I think it is important to delineate between inter- and transsexuals. My understanding is that intersexualism is a genetic chromosomal occurrence and I don’t think that would be sinful since it is a condition outside of human action (i.e. like someone born with mental retardation, physical deformity, etc.). Transsexualism, the act of trying to change one’s sex from male to female or female to male, is a human action and thus would fall into a sinful category (I’m not totally sure what sin it would amount to, but I think it would be sinful). Obviously, it is one of the Church’s roles to, in trying to steer the flocks away from sin, enumerate the various sins and urge people to repent, but that’s a far cry from advocating murder and violence.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Me too, but I didn’t want to open up the death penalty debate.

Not trying to open up that debate, just expressing sentiments is all. My ultimate punishment for him would be have a pair of rotweilers chase him down in a small fenced area then maul him, to be honest.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Not trying to open up that debate, just expressing sentiments is all. My ultimate punishment for him would be have a pair of rotweilers chase him down in a small fenced area then maul him, to be honest.

I don’t think you’re the kind of person who would actually want to see that done. Thinking about it is one thing, hearing the screams another.

Oddly enough, I’d prefer it if he just realised what he’d done, and properly repented. The restitution that he’d make for the rest of his life might do some good. Anyone with a conscience would punish themselves far more severely than anything I could come up with, and that would take care of the deterrent angle.

But as I said, I’m not worthy of being called “Christian”. Others may disagree. I’ve found most people do - they don’t just want retribution, they want revenge. I’ve seen too much misery to ever want more, even for those who deserve it. I just want true repentance.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Remember that I am learning about this issue, so I will probably make some mistakes, but one of the articles you referred to linked to one that mentioned a paper that was written at Johns Hopkins, which I haven’t read. I read the article linked here.

From this article, I gathered that not all requests for gender-change operations are from people who think that they actually are the opposite sex. The study they did found two types of people requesting the operations: people who cross-dressed for sexual reasons who wanted to further the experience, and homosexuals who thought that changing their gender would allow them to be in synch with their sexual attraction…

Regarding the McHugh article - it’s endlessly repeated and reprinted, and yet it’s in a philosophical and religious journal, not a medical one. And it’s the only one of its kind, nobody else but Dr McHugh subscribes to his eccentric notions.

See for example the reply - also in First Things -

In “Surgical Sex” (November 2004) Paul McHugh is certainly right to assert that sexual identity (or, as I prefer, gender) is not subject to change; it is most certainly inherent. About nearly everything else, however, Dr. McHugh is quite wrong. To begin with, I honestly have to wonder how many transsexuals Dr. McHugh has encountered, either before or after surgery. While some do match his descriptions, most of those I know have actually been quite successful in their transformation and are indistinguishable from other women.

Contrary to Dr. McHugh’s claims, many transsexual women show considerable interest in children and many mourn the fact that they will never be able to bear a child. I myself have cried bitter tears over this. And yes, some transsexual women do identify as lesbian—just like women who are not transsexual. Likewise, many transsexual men identify as gay. Such is to be expected if transsexualism is more than just a choice.

The report published by Jon Meyer (and cited authoritatively by Dr. McHugh) was met with considerable skepticism at the time it was published. It was widely criticized for methodological flaws, while other studies have shown that Meyer’s study was incorrect in its conclusions. Nevertheless, it was used by Johns Hopkins as an excuse to shut down its gender identity clinic. I also note that Dr. McHugh mentions the Clarke Institute. The fact is that this agency has a notorious reputation for mistreating transsexual patients, forcing them to meet unreasonable standards, and denying them the hormones needed to modify their bodies.

One wonders why Dr. McHugh would choose such a cruel approach to the treatment of transsexuals. Sex- reassignment surgery has proven to be the only successful treatment for these patients, and yet for some reason he wishes to deny this. He makes a rather clumsy attempt to justify his position by comparing the treatment of adults who are transsexual with the treatment of children who are intersexed. I**ronically, the arguments for one contradict the arguments for the other. **Children who are intersexed have traditionally been surgically altered in whatever manner is simplest. This has often resulted in a child who has a male brain being given a female body. As Dr. McHugh points out, such a child is tormented by the attempt to force him to live at odds with his natural inclinations. And yet, he cannot find the compassion to provide treatment to those who, for whatever reason, were born male but whose brains were not sexualized as male in the womb. Even though both groups face the same set of problems, Dr. McHugh sets out to protect one group while effectively punishing the other.

Jennifer Usher
San Francisco, California

I would be considered a complete failure by Jon Meyer’s criteria. Not only did I continue with a profession unsuitable for women, that of a scientist and engineer, rather than taking up hairdressing or secretarial work, but I’m exacerbating the situation by doing a PhD, now I don’t have to spend so much psychic energy pretending.

I also treat my marriage vows as sacred, so my partner and I are continuing to raise our boy together. The vows said “in sickness and in health”, no exclusions about which rare medical conditions were covered and which were not. So I’m not in a suitable romantic relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Worse, I’m chastely living with someone of the same sex, and that’s worth more points against “success” than alcoholism or heroin addiction on the Meyer scale. Almost as many as being a Rocket Scientist rather than a Beautician.

Oh yes - the events Dr McHugh describes were 30 years ago. The Johns Hopkins School discontinued sex change operations in 1979, when their surgeon left. Since then, they have referred patients to surgeons elsewhere, along with recommendations that the patients be given sex reassignment surgery. They no longer do it themselves.

He is also guilty of prejudice, or pre-judgment. He says as much in his opus Psychiatric Misadventures

This interrelationship of cultural antinomianism and a
psychiatric misplaced emphasis is seen at its grimmest in the
practice known as sex-reassignment surgery. I happen to know about
this because Johns Hopkins was one of the places in the United
States where this practice was given its start. It was part of my
intention, when I arrived in Baltimore in 1975, to help end it.

Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

What research?

Rather than recapitulate all the details, please could you go look at the other threads here. They’re rather long, but there’s a lot in them.

Some of the latest data, if you don’t have time, is in Brain Gender Identity - a presentation by Dr Sidney Ecker, MD FACS . This has links to a powerpoint presentation given recently to the APA, plus a 300+ article bibliography.

I’ll quote from my blog:

In response to a request that read:

*What I'm requesting from anyone and everyone that can help, to please provide me with any and all creditable medical and/or psychiatric documentation that supports our condition that are completely legitimate. I have to use facts because some will try their hardest to tear it apart. I would like to use as much as possible genetic/biological proof to go along with the DSM.*

Here is my reply:

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

…the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

There’s a pile more with URLs at BiGender and the Brain. See also Dr Veronica Drantz’s Powerpoint presentations, and the specific quotes from Dr Harry Benjamin’s The Transsexual Phenomenon at Two for the Reference Library.

Since I wrote that reply, a veritable torrent of additional evidence has flowed in. I can do no more than touch on the highlights, and quote articles available to read on the web without a subscription.

If you want more, I can give it. I think that should be a good start though!

 

[aspawloski4th]

I don’t think you’re the kind of person who would actually want to see that done. Thinking about it is one thing, hearing the screams another.

Oddly enough, I’d prefer it if he just realized what he’d done, and properly repented. The restitution that he’d make for the rest of his life might do some good. Anyone with a conscience would punish themselves far more severely than anything I could come up with, and that would take care of the deterrent angle.

But as I said, I’m not worthy of being called “Christian”. Others may disagree. I’ve found most people do - they don’t just want retribution, they want revenge. I’ve seen too much misery to ever want more, even for those who deserve it. I just want true repentance.

While everyone has a life story and I’m no different nor about to tell my whole life story it was a big factor in that sentiment. Things like when I was ran over with bikes by neighborhood boys at the age of 4 left unconscious on my face in the middle of the street for dead., and their parents only encouraging that type of behavior because I wasn’t a “normal” boy. I’t took a threat of their father getting beaten up by my dad for that type of mayhem to stop. While after that nothing ever life threatening ever happened again, the bullying didn’t end. I had plenty of times where I just wanted to leave school altogether even though I liked learning. I believe a thug is a thug and most often can’t be changed. Of course I’d rather have a civil society because everyone has good intentions, but knowing many don’t have good intentions, if thugs behave because they know they’re toast if they don’t I’ll settle for that.

 

[Dale_M]

Rather than recapitulate all the details, please could you go look at the other threads here. They’re rather long, but there’s a lot in them.

Thank you, Zoe for answering the question for me. I have to admit, I despaired at finding the information since, as you said, the other threads are rather long.

 

[St_Francis]

Zoe, since you know some of the individual words used in the posts with information and would therefore be able to best limit the search, perhaps you could do the search and copy some of the information so that when people ask for a re-cap, you’d be able to just do a C&P. I’ll contribute what I was able to find from this thread:

Thanks. That’s certainly the reason why I post here. Not for me, but for the children who continue to be born with these conditions, and their parents who have to cope with not just the complex medical issues, but so often with obtuse and pharisaic attitudes based on flawed knowledge of biology. What is so frustrating is that scripture already deals with such subjects - see the first line of Matthew 19:12 and Isaiah 56:3-5. Taking a strict legalist position is one thing, but to do so on “laws” that contradict actual scripture as well as modern scientific knowledge is another. No nomad agrarian society of Biblical times could be unaware of Intersex conditions, they’re so very common in livestock.It’s only modern, urbanised people with no contact with agriculture who aren’t aware of “freemartins” and other common Intersex conditions.

A read through the article BiGender and the Brain might be useful to you. That made it into peer-reviewed “best of” collections of both medical and neurological articles on the web. Also see the threads What is the Church’s position on the Intersexed and Transsexed? and Transsexualism, why is it so despised? in the Social Justice section of the Catholic Answers Forum.

On that one, I remain agnostic. We have some good reason to suppose that in 20 or 30 years time, we will have sufficient evidence for or against this. It’s complicated by the widespread use of DES in the 50’s, 60’s and early 70’s, which appears to have led to a spike in the prevalence from 1975 to 2010. We would expect that spike to be trailing off in the next few years, and to be completely gone by 2030, 55 years after the last use. We’re probably past the peak now, but again, we lack evidence - and if the increase in various chemicals in the modern environment is causal too, there may be an underlying slowly increasing upwards trend that would hide that.

In short - I don’t know, but many good people in the field think it more likely than not. There is a section on this in Dr Ecker’s presentation.

She also has girl parts - specifically, in the brain.

Here’s a recent communication to me from Dr Ecker MD FACS about similar cases:

I hope that the Magesterium takes note of this, and starts treating Transsexual people as the Intersexed people they are, not the people they appear superficially to be.

Remember I’m one of the cases of Intersex who get a natural external sex change. We exist, and we cause all sorts of theological conundra. The Church has it right when it says that we are born male or female, and no amount of external change afterwards makes any difference to that. Dr Ecker has shown that to be true.

They’re wrong though when they say appearance at birth is an infallible guide. My existence proves that - as does Dr Ecker’s and many other people’s work.

It’s only the ignorant and superstitious who ignore the evidence, and prescribe flagellation, fasting, meditation, electro-convulsive therapy, exorcism and the like, for an Intersex condition that can be seen on MRI scans. A condition that can be ameliorated by aligning the rest of the body with the part we can’t change, the brain.

I’m just thinking that you’ll probably need them again

 

[Drawmack]

Rather than recapitulate all the details, please could you go look at the other threads here. They’re rather long, but there’s a lot in them.

Zoe,

Please check out the people that someone if responding to. I was responding to someone who said that current research shows sexuality to be learned. At least, that’s the way I read the post I was responding to.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Zoe,

Please check out the people that someone if responding to. I was responding to someone who said that current research shows sexuality to be learned. At least, that’s the way I read the post I was responding to.

I think Zoe posts plenty enough links to studies and articles here that she need not have to repost.

 

[Drawmack]

I think Zoe posts plenty enough links to studies and articles here that she need not have to repost.

I wasn’t asking her to repost. I was clarifying that I wasn’t asking for her research I was asking for research that is antithetical to hers, as I read the original post I was replying to as making an antithetical statement to hers.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I wasn’t asking her to repost. I was clarifying that I wasn’t asking for her research I was asking for research that is antithetical to hers, as I read the original post I was replying to as making an antithetical statement to hers.

There are many critiques of individual experiments, all boiling down to claims of insufficient sample size for the individual results in isolation to be completely conclusive without looking at other areas too. Some critiques about the effect of hormones in the earlier papers, that have been answered by later ones showing hormones had no effect in that area.

But research results that are antithetical, none that I know of. There are reports of single cases (with no follow up so we don’t know if the effect was temporary) of Spirit Release Therapy, Exorcism and Pyramidology being effective, but the quality of the data is poor.

See for example :

Gender identity change in a transsexual: an exorcism.
Barlow DH, Abel GG, Blanchard EB.
Arch Sex Behav. 1977 Sep;6(5):387-95.

Gender identity change in a conservatively diagnosed 21-year-old transexual after faith healing was fortuitously observed, was objectively and independently measured, and is reported. This case, and other recent developments, suggests a reexamination of the possibilities of psychosocial intervention to modify atypical gender identity.

[Psychological treatment of transsexualism and sexual identity disorders some recent attempts]
Bourgeois M.
Ann Med Psychol (Paris). 1978 Nov;136(9):985-1008.

Psychological treatments of transsexualism and sex gender Dysphoria syndroms. Recent data. There are generally two types of patients requesting sex change operations: one type is the classical but rare transsexual, the others belong to the larger more vague group of sex gender Dysphoria. These syndroms have been felt to be unresponsive to psychotherapy. We review here some recent attempts of psychological treatments which claim to improve satisfaction with biological sex gender identity and result in renonciation of the request of sex reassignment surgery (S.R.S.). These psychotherapies use various methods: Behavior therapy, psychoanalytically-oriented psychotherapy, religious exorcism and conversion. The reports reviewed suggest that sex gender identity may be more malleable than previously thought in transsexual syndrom, at least in relatively youthful subjects. Cases of recent onset of the syndrom which result from a crisis cases underline the necessity for careful evaluation and attempted psychological treatment before undertaking irreversible surgical procedures.

Since the improvement of the diagnostic criteria from the mid-80’s, there have been no such “improvements” reported in the literature, and none of the patients would be considered transsexual by today’s definitions. “Behavior therapy” by the way included what in other contexts would be called torture - electric shocks to eyeballs, genitalia, administration of psychoactive drugs and some which caused uncontrollable vomiting etc.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

In summary, I’ll quote Swaab’s 2004 paper once more:

Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking.

This has not been challenged in any medical or scientific journal. It has been challenged (by for example, NARTH on the Dr Phil show) but on philosophical grounds rather than by adducing evidence.

 

[estesbob]

The Raychel ‘Roo’ story is a hoax:

pamshouseblend.com/diary/11619/

 

[Dale_M]

The Raychel ‘Roo’ story is a hoax:

Yes, Zoe mentioned this in post #50.

It was a very cruel trick.