The Reality of How Trans People are Treated

[Zoe_Brain]

From a forum I’m on:

I am having a very difficult time right now. I am a moderator on another site and we have a Forum and we have a Chat. Raychel ‘Roo’ was 18 in March. She died in intensive care last night. One of our teen Moderators, she lived in New York and was a post op teenage girl, and a dancer. She was headed to the Juliette School in the Fall. Now she is dead.

Her father was killed and her mother lost her arm in a terrible car crash last month. At one of the trials on this, one of the lawyers outed her. Her town had a very negative reaction.

She had life threats, she and her mother. The police had them under protective surveillance. The police left at noon yesterday. By two o’clock she was assulted. Last night she died.

She rode her bike to go to the store. She never came home. They found her bike in a dumpster. Late that evening they found her. She had been assaulted with a sledge hammer, they think, judging from the bruises all over her body. Her knee caps had been broken. She had been gang raped. They buried her alive.

She worked her way out of the almost grave and crawled for three hours to get help. She was put in the ICU and given little chance to survive. Last night she died.

The facts are skimpy, speculation reigns. Supposedly kids from a nearby school came after her in a van. There were no fingerprints. She had no semen after the rapes so it shows premeditation as they used condoms. She was so beat-up her organs just went into shock and she died.

Our whole group is sick and horrified. I am having a difficult time just writing this. I need to for two reasons, to tell her story and to say ‘please be careful!’ Last night we lost a sister, and one of our own.

The next time someone says “A Hate Crimes Bill is anti-Christian”, that “there is no evidence of a problem”, I am going to have to really, really, really work on my charity, my capacity to forgive, to see anothers viewpoint.

The next time someone says that Trans people are rebelling against God, are inherently sinful, and have brought this treatment upon themselves, likewise.

This happened within the last 24 hours you see - hasn’t made the papers, and as it’s just another killing of a transsexual girl, probably won’t. Most don’t. What was it, 28 last year, only 11 publicised?

I broke down at the Transgender Day of Remembrance last year, when I came to the name of one of the victims. Only 10 years old. I forget how long the list is now, 17 pages I think, more every year, and in the USA, the rate is increasing.

Yes, I know it’s a mark of the Fall, but I am getting really, really tired of Catholics and other Christians AIDING AND ABETTING THIS. They deny it, to themselves and to others, but many call for violence. Some participate. Far more don’t do it - they just stay silent when others do. That is aiding. That is abetting. I’m not saying a single Catholic was in the attacking gang. I am saying that there are many Catholics who would just shrug their shoulders and say “The Wages of Sin is Death” and walk away.

For more on such issues see What is the Church’s position on the Intersexed and Transsexed? and Transsexualism : why is it so despised?.

Please don’t comment about how it’s nothing to do with the Church, it’s Man’s Sinful nature etc etc. I know that. I’ve heard it many times before. I’ve heard it so often, usually immediately followed by condemnation of those born (through no fault of their own) neither wholly male nor wholly female in body, that forgive me but I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the hypocrisy and denial. The aiding and abetting.

If I hear one more tale of a Catholic Priest advising a transsexual woman to go home and commit suicide to avoid public scandal, I will really need to sit down and work on my forgiveness even more. How I should pray for those who have lost their way. How of course advising someone to commit a mortal sin is contrary to all Catholic belief yada yada yada. Yes I know, and “no true priest” would ever do that. Well if so, there’s hundreds of false ones. If you tell me there isn’t a systemic problem here, pull the other leg, it’s got bells on. Yes, the problem may be worse in some Protestant sects, I’m aware of that. That’s irrelevant.

I need to let go of my anger. I need to follow His teachings, even though I’m no Christian, and tears are falling on the keyboard as I write this. I’ve heard too many stories like this one, it’s happened too often.

Please, no more denial. No more turning away. No more aiding and abetting.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Zoe, I know you’re upset. I understand that. Indeed this is disturbing news. But sometimes when we’re upset we lash out, just generally. Specfics are important.

Which Catholics have suggested violence? (That was a statement you made.)

Which priests have suggested to any person, of any persuasion or condition, chosen or not, that he or she commit suicide? (Also a statement you made.)

You may believe or have heard that both have happened. But what evidence do you have that practicing, faithful Catholics actively promote violence or condone it, or have done so in the very recent past? (Not people who were merely baptised as infants & haven’t seen the inside of a church since age 7.) Because naturally your point is irrefutable that violence for any reason other than self-defense and defense of one’s country is not compatible with Christianity. So these are strong accusations you make.

I’m very sorry about this.:bighanky:

 

[Dale_M]

But what evidence do you have that practicing, faithful Catholics actively promote violence or condone it, or have done so in the very recent past?

Here at CAF we’ve had several members say, and defend, that the murder of Dr. Tiller was justifiable, and not a serious crime (or even not a crime at all.) And these are members who claim to be faithful, practicing Catholics.

I am not aware of religiously motivated violence towards transsexuals, so your point is good. But one CAF member (I don’t remember her name) mentioned that her priest advised her to go and kill herself. I’d link to to that post, but unfortunately we have two active transsexual threads which are quite lengthy and the post is in one of them. Searching for it produces too many results to wade through.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I was not asking about George Tiller, Dale. Separate issue.

As to the claim by a poster on one of the 2 long threads, I don’t want to call anyone a liar, but one of two things happened: the poster in question misunderstood the actual suggestion of that priest, or the priest is seriously disturbed – and I don’t mean just spiritually. And if so (if disturbed in this particular fashion), I question how representative he is of mainstream Catholic priesthood. I’ve been a cradle Catholic for a very long time. As I’ve mentioned on other threads, I have known more priests than the average Catholic, partly because of my schooling. I have never heard anything even close to this. And since I’ve been such close friends with so many priests, believe me, a lot has been revealed that generally isn’t revealed to the average lay Catholic. But no priest has ever reported that any priest they have ever known has suggested suicide to anyone for any reason. That is fundamentally an anti-life stance by definition.

 

[Dale_M]

I was not asking about George Tiller, Dale. Separate issue.

Yes, but they are not unrelated issues. You asked for evidence that faithful, practicing Catholics would commit or countenance violence against others. And some do - the evidence is right here on CAF. I haven’t seen anyone advocating violence against transsexuals, citing religious justification, but I am not sure that the possibility doesn’t exist. Of course, CAF moderators generally remove any posts advocating violence, so this site probably wouldn’t be the best source for that kind of evidence.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Dale, I don’t know why you’re insisting on changing the subject. They may be related, but they are tangential, and the number of Christians (Catholics + Protestants) talking about violence against abortion doctors numbers in the thousands, it seems. There’s even a signficant sampling here on CAF. Actual threads have been opened, more than one, seriously asking the question about whether killing an abortion doctor should even be considered immoral. Seriously.

Let’s not derail this thread. Zoe asked a pointed question about a specific issue. There’s more than enough hijacking going on elsewhere on CAF. Her topic deserves to be respected on its own merits and limited to that topic.

Please.

And I did not ask her or you whether violence by Christians is possible or probable, just in general. I think the answer to that question is obvious. I was asking for verification as to whether (unlike with abortion, where we know the numbers fantasing, suggesting, or committing violence is signficant) it can be documented that there’s a statistically significant subset of Catholics who subscribe to violence against transsexuals or atttempt to justify it. Let’s not get into generalities; that was not my question.

Thanks.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Which priests have suggested to any person, of any persuasion or condition, chosen or not, that he or she commit suicide? (Also a statement you made.)

I’ll ask for the name - it was in personal testimony from someone I know.

I only have published evidence for one church to hand, denomination unknown (but not Catholic). I’ll see if I can find some of the others.

But many, like Darlene, lose their family and friends.

She was asked to leave her church. She was turned down by five churches when she asked to join. Friends told her never to speak to them again.

“The minister at one of the churches told me I should go home, put on a man’s suit and kill myself,” Darlene said.

commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/07/the-woman-within-a-former-fighter-pilot-decides/#comments

I’ll look through my records and find you the written evidence for the rest. But what does it matter, you’ll find loonies professing to be Catholic (who aren’t), loonies professing to be Catholic (who are… in name), and loonies in every organisation.

It’s not them that I’m concerned with. It’s those who pass by, who even approve of, well not murder and rape obviously, but want the rights to deny trans people jobs, or not to rent to them, and generally don’t want them around. And if trans people get murdered, well, that’s obviously terrible, no-one could ever approve of that. But… well, it’s understandable, isn’t it? I mean, you can see how it could happen. That’s what happens to the sinful. Perhaps it’s for the best, society really is better off without them. And should medics be forced to give such people treatment, if it’s against their conscience, and just encouraging their sinful behaviour?

I’ve heard all that and more. Some of it here - read some of the threads. Aiding and abetting.

Sorry Elizabeth, it’s just that the death toll is so unrelenting. Every few weeks, one of us is shot in both eyes, or skinned alive, or burnt to death, or “gutted like a trout” with a knife.

She was only 18, just a teenager. It’s the death of the young that affect me so much. And that death isn’t good enough, the killings typically involve mutilation of the face and genitals, trying to erase the existence of the victim. Hopefully after death. Not usually though.

Elizabeth, it never ends. I never get so much as a month go by without something like this happening, sometimes to someone I know, have met, have hugged and had coffee with.

I have tried to be tolerant. I have tried to think the best of people. I have tried to forgive, as I hope in turn to be forgiven for my many grievous faults. I have tried so very hard to be patient, not to take offence where none is intended, not to bear a grudge and to always take the most charitable interpretation of what is being said. Most people are, after all, good at heart.

4 Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited,
5 it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances.
6 Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth.
7 It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes.

I can forgive past wrongs. It’s the future ones I have difficulty with. The ones where people say “sorry” but have no contrition or repentance. The people who use religion as an excuse to hate those who are different. And most of all, the well-meaning but terribly irresponsible. Those who state that “men are men, women are women, and anyone who says different is a danger to mankind” without (to be charitable) considering that some people would take it upon themselves to remove that danger, by whatever means necessary. And if they do, not saying a word about it.

Now pardon me, I really have to go read 1 Corinthians 13 again. You see, it doesn’t say usually make allowances… it says always. I need to work on that.

God Bless,
Zoe

 

[PaulineOsinachi]

Dear Zoe, Am really sorry about what happened and it’s shameful but I think your feelings are all muddled up. What has really gotten to you is the violence - and I am as revolted as you are - but you also say that

…“I’m not saying a single Catholic was in the attacking gang. I am saying that there are many Catholics who would just shrug their shoulders and say “The Wages of Sin is Death” and walk away… And most of all, the well-meaning but terribly irresponsible. The people who use religion as an excuse to hate those who are different. The ones where people say “sorry” but have no contrition or repentance.”…

but what you are channeling your anger against is the church’s teaching that a person is a unity of body and soul and the body should not be objectified. Please do not judge the rest of the faithful with the aberrant behaviour of a minority, though they maybe hundreds

…“How of course advising someone to commit a mortal sin is contrary to all Catholic belief yada yada yada.”…

It’s not vain talk, it sure is contrary to all Catholic belief. I’ll advise you to pray before the blessed sacrament and ask Our Lord for strength to be able to accept the Church’s teaching and you’ll see that she is with you, against all forms of violence against any group of people.
May God bless you

 

[Eucharisted]

Judging an entire people by a few members is the fallacy of generalization.

If you wish to charitable, than get to understand two things: people have different opinions and beliefs than you, and it would be a good idea to get to know why people believe what they do. Ignorace bears the fruit of hatred, and hatred grows into the tree of violence. This girl’s story shows that. So be charitable and understanding toward those who are different from you - even if they attack others who are different from them. By your good example, you will show your moral superiority (though it would be wrong to rub it in others’ faces), and your good example will actually teach people to be more good, which in turn will prevent more hate crimes and violence against different people. Like the old saying goes, “The best teacher is the exemplar” and “The quickest way to stop a fire is to not start one.”

 

[Zoe_Brain]

By your good example, you will show your moral superiority

I don’t care about that. “Moral Superiority”? Compared to perfection, there’s no difference between the killers and me. We’re all sinners, fallible, human, imperfect. Some more than others, but it’s a difference of degree, not kind.

I’m not important - any more than anyone else on the planet. Right now, while I’m selfishly trying to become a better person (and there’s so much room for improvement there), I care not one jot or tittle for my immortal soul.

I just want them to stop killing the children.

I want those who provide the moral background, the milleiu of transphobia to realise the consequences of their words. I want them to take responsibility, and to condemn the attackers with the same zeal that they condemn the victim. Not with empty words and crocodile tears, but even obtaining those seems impossible sometimes.

This won’t be accomplished by hope alone. It requires me to testify, to make people uncomfortable, to shove this in their faces so they run out of excuses.To cause them to examine their consciences. Not to harm them, for I bear them no ill will, and even if I did, they don’t deserve condemnation. Just to stop the relentless drip, drip, drip of children being tortured, raped and murdered, with no publicity, no outcry, no one even knowing, and so not believing there’s a problem.

My task is impossible, of course. I can’t solve the world’s ills. I have neither the power nor the wisdom to know what to do. So I do what I can. But enough about me. I’m not important, the children are.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

From someone whose experiences with the Church were less than good:

But what sealed it was when my parents sent me to a priest for
counseling regarding my obvious case of transsexualism and the creepy
old pervert told me that not only would I be an abomination condemned to
hell if I acted upon what I was but that even thinking about it was the
same as doing.

He told me I should live a life devoid of love and sex to avoid this
and become a priest devoting my life to god praying away the temptation.

The slimy old freak was patting me on the knee the while time he was
telling me this and then gave me a little hug telling me that the
priesthood offered a place where people with problems could find salvation.

I told him I was suicidal and he counseled that suicide would spare
others the pain of my growing up transsexual only he used the word queer.

I’ll see if I can find the other examples. It’s not uncommon.

Priests are human too. Again, some more than others. And unfortunately some victims confuse the failings of individuals in an organisation with failings of the institution itself. But when the institution refuses to recognise that its members are fallible, and excuses or tolerates such behaviour, it’s not fault-free either. There’s a systemic problem.

 

[Newbie2]

“Please, no more denial. No more turning away. No more aiding and abetting.”

I understand that you’re upset…but…

1. Many behind expanding “hate crime” legislation for people of various sexual preferences, etc. have a political agenda, i.e. Pro-LGBT, behind their motivations. Objecting to such an agenda is not “aiding and abetting”. Murder is murder, regardless of the motive, and should be punished as such.
2. What is “turning away”?
3. Who is denying what?

I have a very difficult time believing that any priest would suggest that someone commit suicide for whatever reason. But if it did happen, it’s wrong and the bishop should be made aware.

Yep, as has been posted, there are those who are supposedly “christians” who are OK with this sort of thing. Don’t get upset over them. They are not espousing Christian/Catholic ideals.

 

[jawats]

“Trans” people need to be treated with the same compassion and love as with any person experiencing difficulties due to original sin.

As John Paul II noted of homosexuality, but which applies equally here:

"It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase." Para. 10, Letter to Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, John Paul II (1986).

 

[Zoe_Brain]

1. Many behind expanding “hate crime” legislation for people of various sexual preferences, etc. have a political agenda, i.e. Pro-LGBT, behind their motivations. Objecting to such an agenda is not “aiding and abetting”. Murder is murder, regardless of the motive, and should be punished as such.

But what if it isn’t being?

What if the chances of anyone being convicted of murdering a trans person in the USA in 2009 are the same as the odds of a white man being convicted of murdering a black man in the USA in 1909?

What if in 2007 there were 65 “hate crimes” recorded in the USA against Catholics - but 1,411 against Gays, including 5 murders. None against Trans people, because “hate crimes” against them aren’t counted, even though 22 were slain.

What if the “clear up” rate for homicides in the US was 70% - but when the victim is trans, only 30%?

Of course those who are for this “Hate Crimes” bill have a political agenda. They want equal treatment when it comes to bias-motivated violence against them. Most want acceptance too, but that’s not something legislation will grant. Only tolerance.

And some of the ones opposing the bill also have a political agenda. They want to continue to kill with impunity.

In 1988 a Florida judge, trying a case concerning the beating to death of a gay man asked the prosecutor, “That’s a crime now, to beat up a homosexual?” The prosecutor responded, “Yes, sir. And it’s also a crime to kill them.”

Altschiller, Donald (2005), Hate Crimes: a reference handbook, ABC-CLIO, pp. 26–28

While some don’t see murder or assault of gays as being a crime, most do - they just don’t see a problem. They don’t know the statistics, or if they do, consider a few deaths and rather more maimings to be an acceptable price to pay for keeping those awful sinners in line. Otherwise they’d be seen as encouraging them, you see. I mean, they deserve it, really. Society must be protected. It’s their own fault. And everyone’s treated equally.

I’ve heard it all before. Aiding and Abetting.

Yep, as has been posted, there are those who are supposedly “christians” who are OK with this sort of thing. Don’t get upset over them. They are not espousing Christian/Catholic ideals.

No true Scotsman would do such a thing

Oh, I accept that. And I’m not upset. “Upset” does not begin to describe it.

I ask you to look at one thing. This forum is filled with charity, and love for one’s fellow human beings. With very few exceptions, exceptions who lack charity, and who you will find in any group, this is a good place, filled with good people.

Now look at the number of threads and posts about the evils of Homosexuality.

Now look at the number of threads and posts condemning in just as strong terms the continued murders and assaults of gay people.

That is turning away.

And your post is an excellent example of denial.

However, that is another matter, homosexuality has nothing to do with transsexuality.

 

[Miserissima]

Now, I don’t mean to derail this thread, and I know the example I’m going to give
a) isn’t how all Trans portray themselves and therefore isn’t the norm and
b) no one asks to be victimized or hurt, adn there is no justification for such violence against anyone.

I’ve known other Trans folks who were just plain folks. What I do not like is a lady in my office who is a boor. She is catty and flamboyant, and it so happend that she used to be a male. I don’t like her, because I don’t like her personality – she’s insulted me for no other reason than to get attention for herself on numerous occasions. She thinks she’s being witty, of all things.

Thing is, not one of us can say, “tone it down” niceley, as we would say it to each other. You see, she’s they type who would take it to heart and scream discrimination.

We live in fear of that moment. If we don’t act quickly enough to fulfil her arbitrary whims, we don’t like her because she’s a transexual. If we don’t laugh at her jokes, it’s because she used to be a man. The list goes on! If she feels slighted personally or underserved professionally, it has to do with her sex/sexuality – not her competence or kindness. It’s as if her whole world is centered around her sexuality and I’m sorry, but it ain’t. And if I say anything about it, my butt is going to be in trouble.

Look, she has referenced her sex life, which no one wants to know and no lady would discuss in such public terms. (I recognize that there are people who were born women who are most certainly not ladies.) Of course, such discussion has no place in the office, but she gets liberties. Our supervisor spoke with her once asking her not to discuss it, and she went around saying that she was being “repressed.” Look, lady, we don’t talk about our sex lives in this office and don’t want to hear about yours. We’re not repressing you, we’re holding up a standard of decorum which you obviously eschew.

I just want to say, "Look, it’s not that I don’t like you because you used to be a guy. I don’t like you because you’re loud, obnoxious, over-the-top and your attitute toward others is hurtful and mean.

I get it, it’s probably a defensive mechanism because you’ve had it rough. How are you udging others as you don’t want to be judged, hmm? Has anyone here even been given the chance to be nice – or otherwise – toward you?"

It’s a vicious cycle, this unkindness and lack of trust. So…what’s the reality of how she’s treated? She’s on the outside, because she put herself there. She’s lonely and getting more bitter by the day, and it makes for a hellish working environment. But no one has done this to her, and no one can get through that wall she’s erected around herself.

 

[jawats]

Of course those who are for this “Hate Crimes” bill have a political agenda. They want equal treatment when it comes to bias-motivated violence against them. Most want acceptance too, but that’s not something legislation will grant. Only tolerance.

Most premeditated murder is a “hate crime.” To assign more harsh penalty to people who kill or are perceived to kill due to the feeling of the murdered in regard to any status of the victim violates the nature of law in avoiding “respect of persons,” meaning that the law should not take into account status of the individual other than as a person due the respect of the law.

Would you hold that the murderer of a white heterosexual male who is killed because he was a business rival of a murderer deserves less punishment than the killer of a homosexual, transsexual, or minority? And why?

 

[Zoe_Brain]

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.”

Indeed it does. Deserve it. But does it get it? Consider how many statements are made by Church authorities about the evils of homosexuality, compared with the evils of murdering homosexuals.

Consider how many Catholic groups have specifically opposed legislation against bullying in schools, as the legislation states that you can’t bully someone just because they’re gay. Because that could be seen as accepting the “gay lifestyle” as normal. Far better that some children should end up in the ER, and a few in the morgue, lest that happen. Aiding and Abetting.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase." .

Note he said not actions, but reactions. That’s a giveaway.

In 2008, the incidence of Hate Crimes went down by 1%, according to the FBI.

Except when they involved assaults on GLBTs, they increased by 6%.

Despite the gay-protective legislation having been introduced (though not passed), the 1% drop shows that “irrational and violent actions” have actually decreased.

But “irrational and violent reactions”, certainly have increased. The other distorted notions and practices are a reaction to gays daring to claim that they have an equal right not to be subject to violence. A quite understandable backlash by the pious, one sometimes administered with sledgehammers, knives and firearms. These people must be kept in their place. Denied work, denied accomodations, in the name of Religion.

But not murdered, that’s going too far. Only persecute thus far, and no further. But if they happen to get murdered, why, it’s their own fault. For asking for laws that would protect them from persecution. You can see that, can’t you? It’s them to blame, not us. We’re just reacting to their unreasonable demands, to be given equality despite their perversion. And if some of us go too far, we’ll condemn them, really we will. No True Scotsman would do anything like that.

That’s called “Blaming the Victim”. Aiding and Abetting.

Trans people, and for that matter other Intersexed people like myself, are certainly disordered. We were born with bodies neither wholly male nor wholly female, just like some people are born with the disorder of colour-blindness or left-handedness, or the mutations that cause red hair or blue eyes.

To that extent, and to that extent only, the Pope’s remarks apply. Though 1 in 3 trans and intersexed people are indeed gay or lesbian. Quite a few are left-handed too, though rather more are ambidextrous, the hormonal mixup in the womb associated with all trans, and some intersex, conditions has that effect too. As far as I know, we’re no different from the rest of the population when it comes to colour blindness, red hair or blue eyes though.

I ask you to have a look through the other threads on transsexuality and other intersex conditions for more details.

A communication from Professor Emeritus Sidney Ecker, MD, FACS, about his recent presentation on the subject to the American Psychiatric Association annual conference.

Hi Zoe,

Yes, we gave our presentation to 60 plus psychiatrists from the US, AU, FR, IT, EU, UK, Holland etc.

We spoke for 2 1/2 hours on why cross gender identity was a normal inherited variation of humans. We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex. We presented internationally accepted guidelines for hormonal treatment of transsexuals to be published Summer 2009.

Here are my slides and with my participants’ permission I shall send you theirs. We are now in print in the APA Syllabus and soon in the APA Journal this summer. I am checking if we were recorded.

My greatest personal compliment came from Frank Kruijver, from Holland, whose research of the human brain in TSs started it all. He thought we have taken his work very far in our understanding of the human brain. Hope you can do something with this.

Sid Ecker, M.D.

Whether a disorder or a natural human variation, transsexuality, colour-blindness, and left-handedness have very little to do with “activity”, more to do with “being”. And to say that transsexuality is being “condoned” is exactly like “condoning” left-handedness (something else that used to be persecuted by many in the Church) or “condoning” colour-blindness.

 

[jawats]

Indeed it does. Deserve it. But does it get it? Consider how many statements are made by Church authorities about the evils of homosexuality, compared with the evils of murdering homosexuals.

Homosexual activity, in and of itself, is evil. Murder, no matter who is murdered, is evil. Homosexuals are not evil, nor are heterosexuals. It’s the things that one does which are evil or not evil - virtuous or unvirtuous. For the Church authorities to take a stand against normalization of homosexuality does not deny their stance against murder in general, including as a subset of that stance, murdering homosexuals.

Consider how many Catholic groups have specifically opposed legislation against bullying in schools, as the legislation states that you can’t bully someone just because they’re gay. Because that could be seen as accepting the “gay lifestyle” as normal. Far better that some children should end up in the ER, and a few in the morgue, lest that happen. Aiding and Abetting.

I would like to see the statistics on that. More than a single instance - what do you define as “many?”

But “irrational and violent reactions”, certainly have increased. The other distorted notions and practices are a reaction to gays daring to claim that they have an equal right not to be subject to violence.

Really? How would you draw that conclusion? And from what evidence? This is an emotional claim linking your own experience of violence against LGBT with gays “daring to claim” a right not to be subject to violence. Where is the linkage? Do you have evidence of a direct link?

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Would you hold that the murderer of a white heterosexual male who is killed because he was a business rival of a murderer deserves less punishment than the killer of a homosexual, transsexual, or minority? And why?

That depends.

Was the homosexual, transsexual, or minority killed purely and simply because they were homosexual, transsexual, or of that minority?

Was the crime intended to, or have the inescapable effect of, not just killing one, but terrorising a whole group into submission? A group that had historically been the victim of countless such crimes, who have been given reason to fear?

Was the crime liable to lead to more such crimes, until society is wracked with group against group, race against race, religion against religion unless a condign punishment was given to prevent it? Does Society have a special interest in punishing such crimes more severely, to prevent such chaos as has happened in the past?

Then yes, I would.

But if the homosexual, transsexual, or minority member was killed during a robbery, with no regard for their status, then no I would not. That would likely be murder in the second degree, and if so, punished less severely than the pre-meditated murder of the businessman. We make allowances for motives and criminal intent in murder cases all the time.

In other words, I would follow the intent and the wording of the proposed law.

Thanks for asking this question, it’s a very good one, and the question and answer should clear up many misconceptions, and refute some downright lies by the bill’s opponents.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

How would you draw that conclusion? And from what evidence?

Just Out: What is your reaction to the recent murders of out gay youth in Florida and California?

Oregon State Senator Gary George (R): Obviously murder is murder, there’s no excuse for that. Here’s what I’m saying, I think we’re seeing a backlash, in other words if you push me too hard don’t be surprised if I react. Gays will tend to react violently if people are oppressive toward them. If gays are oppressive toward straights, then you’ll see a violent backlash.

Anti-Gay Lawmaker Predicts a Violent Backlash Against Gays Seeking Civil Rights

And from Oklahoma State Representative Sally Kern (R), about “The Homosexual Agenda” :

“I honestly think it’s the biggest threat our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam.”

And then there’s this:

…when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase." .

I mean, it’s understandable, isn’t it? Natural. Inevitable. Of course we don’t condone it as such. Just don’t be too surprised when it happens. Nudge Nudge Wink Wink.

Aiding and Abetting.

The thing is… I don’t think it was deliberate. I don’t think he knew what the effect would be. I hope not, anyway. But some would see it as a call to arms. Literally.

Not that this has anything to do with transsexuality, which is, after all, the topic of this thread.