The Reality of How Trans People are Treated

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No he won’t. He can’t deal with science and wants this topic brushed off like many others.
I havent said a word about the science as it has no bearing on the Teachings of the Church. I did comment about something i knew a lot about(The Greely trial) and I refuted a comment stateitng the majortiy of members of the Church are bigots full of hate towards transexuals.

I have asked what the relevance of attacks on transexuals and the Science on transexuals has to do with the Church?
 
I havent said a word about the science as it has no bearing on the Teachings of the Church. I did comment about something i knew a lot about(The Greely trial) and I refuted a comment stateitng the majortiy of members of the Church are bigots full of hate towards transexuals.

I have asked what the relevance of attacks on transexuals and the Science on transexuals has to do with the Church?
What does it all have to do with the Church? Alot!. It has something to do with the church when church officials put out information telling me I’m sinning for transitioning, that I am only fooling myself when I do. It will have something to do with the church when Im far enough into transition where I cant look very much male anymore when I go to Mass, and I get looks and comments on how the church says my condition doesn’t exist.The fact that theree are transsexuals who happen to be Catholic makes it have something to do with the church. You need more examples? This issues is not going away, and will have to be reckoned with.
 
What does it all have to do with the Church? Alot!. It has something to do with the church when church officials put out information telling me I’m sinning for transitioning, that I am only fooling myself when I do. It will have something to do with the church when Im far enough into transition where I cant look very much male anymore when I go to Mass, and I get looks and comments on how the church says my condition doesn’t exist.The fact that theree are transsexuals who happen to be Catholic makes it have something to do with the church. You need more examples? This issues is not going away, and will have to be reckoned with.
I am sorry that your conflict with Church teachings is causeng you so much pain

I woish I could offer you words of encouragement but I can’t. The Church has made it very clear that the behavior is the sin-not the condition. With all due respect the issue has been dealt with-the Church is not going to change over 2,000 years of consistent teachings on sexualtiy anymore than it is going to change its teachings on the Ressurection.

There are things the Church teaches that i intellectaully have problems but which I follow and obey regardless. You have chosen to take a different route on your disagreement. Let me assure you again-the church is not going to change its teachngs to accomodate transexuality or any other sexual behavior outside of a monogamous sacramental mariage.
 
Estesbob said: “With all due respect the issue has been dealt with-the Church is not going to change over 2,000 years of consistent teachings on sexuality anymore than it is going to change its teachings on the Resurrection…Let me assure you again-the church is not going to change its teachings to accommodate transsexuality or any other sexual behavior outside of a monogamous sacramental marriage.”

I think one of the issues is illustrated perfectly in the above comment. Transsexuality is not an issue of sexuality but gender…and it is not a sexual behavior at all. Zoe Brain has listed, offered to list, quoted, and given examples of much of the science and research done since the mid 1940s on the issue of transsexualism. In spite of this science…in spite of this research it appears that some simply turn a blind eye to what is overwhelming evidence that transsexuality is biophysiological gender issue. Instead, and in spite of the indisputable evidence to the contrary, this group, which include the Church, choose to believe that transsexuality is a learned trait and choice that not only can be controlled/cured…but is also sin.

Estesbob said: “I havent said a word about the science as it has no bearing on the Teachings of the Church.”

Oh, but science *does *have a bearing on the Teachings of the Church. Church history is chocked full of misguided Popes who have turned a blind eye to science in order to satisfy what the Church defined as the “meaning of scripture.” One of the most famous blurbs was the case of Copernicus and Galileo:

“In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church’s Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be “corrected,” on the grounds that the supposedly Pythagorean doctrine that the Earth moves and the Sun doesn’t was “false and altogether opposed to Holy Scripture.” The same decree also prohibited any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun, or that attempted to reconcile these assertions with Scripture. On the orders of Pope Paul V, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine gave Galileo prior notice that the decree was about to be issued, and warned him that he could not “hold or defend” the Copernican doctrine. The corrections to De revolutionibus, which omitted or altered nine sentences, were issued four years later, in 1620. In 1633 Galileo Galilei was convicted of grave suspicion of heresy for “following the position of Copernicus, which is contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture,” and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. Galileo had gotten off lightly. Another Copernican, Giordano Bruno, had been prosecuted in Rome by the same Cardinal Bellarmine and, on 17 February 1600, burned at the stake as a heretic, primarily for his theologic views and not necessarily his scientific ones. The Catholic Church’s 1758 Index of Prohibited Books omitted the general prohibition of works defending heliocentrism, but retained the specific prohibitions of the original uncensored versions of De revolutionibus and Galileo’s Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. Those prohibitions were finally dropped from the 1835 Index.”

There has not been a Pope in the past 150 years who has believed that the universe revolves around Earth, much less one who has seen fit to sanction those who prescribe to that fact, yet there was a time when it was considered heresy. Science indeed changed the Teachings of the Church.

More recently, in 2004, in the Church document Communion and Stewardship, for the first time the Church accepted the reality of biological evolution. Science indeed changed the Teachings of the Church…again.

The Catechism itself says: “Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are” (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.”

The Church seems to go out of its way to say there is no conflict between itself and science, yet seems to choose which science to validate. The Teachings have changed numerous times when the science seemed to serve the Church’s best interest. The Church does not hold my key to heaven, the teachings of Christ and my faith in Him does. There is no doubt the Church will change its position on transsexuality. The issue is the damage that will be done to humankind before it does so.
 
Estesbob said: “With all due respect the issue has been dealt with-the Church is not going to change over 2,000 years of consistent teachings on sexuality anymore than it is going to change its teachings on the Resurrection…Let me assure you again-the church is not going to change its teachings to accommodate transsexuality or any other sexual behavior outside of a monogamous sacramental marriage.”

I think one of the issues is illustrated perfectly in the above comment. Transsexuality is not an issue of sexuality but gender…and it is not a sexual behavior at all. Zoe Brain has listed, offered to list, quoted, and given examples of much of the science and research done since the mid 1940s on the issue of transsexualism. In spite of this science…in spite of this research it appears that some simply turn a blind eye to what is overwhelming evidence that transsexuality is biophysiological gender issue. Instead, and in spite of the indisputable evidence to the contrary, this group, which include the Church, choose to believe that transsexuality is a learned trait and choice that not only can be controlled/cured…but is also sin.
The Church has no opinion as to whether transexualtiy is a matter of choice or is a of matter of science or choice. However that does not excuse the behavior-I would assume that all would agree that undergoing sex change surgery and /or transitioning is a choice.
Estesbob said: “I havent said a word about the science as it has no bearing on the Teachings of the Church.”

Oh, but science *does *have a bearing on the Teachings of the Church. Church history is chocked full of misguided Popes who have turned a blind eye to science in order to satisfy what the Church defined as the “meaning of scripture.” One of the most famous blurbs was the case of Copernicus and Galileo:

“In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church’s Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be “corrected,” on the grounds that the supposedly Pythagorean doctrine that the Earth moves and the Sun doesn’t was “false and altogether opposed to Holy Scripture.” The same decree also prohibited any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun, or that attempted to reconcile these assertions with Scripture. On the orders of Pope Paul V, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine gave Galileo prior notice that the decree was about to be issued, and warned him that he could not “hold or defend” the Copernican doctrine. The corrections to De revolutionibus, which omitted or altered nine sentences, were issued four years later, in 1620. In 1633 Galileo Galilei was convicted of grave suspicion of heresy for “following the position of Copernicus, which is contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture,” and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. Galileo had gotten off lightly. Another Copernican, Giordano Bruno, had been prosecuted in Rome by the same Cardinal Bellarmine and, on 17 February 1600, burned at the stake as a heretic, primarily for his theologic views and not necessarily his scientific ones. The Catholic Church’s 1758 Index of Prohibited Books omitted the general prohibition of works defending heliocentrism, but retained the specific prohibitions of the original uncensored versions of De revolutionibus and Galileo’s Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. Those prohibitions were finally dropped from the 1835 Index.”

There has not been a Pope in the past 150 years who has believed that the universe revolves around Earth, much less one who has seen fit to sanction those who prescribe to that fact, yet there was a time when it was considered heresy. Science indeed changed the Teachings of the Church.

More recently, in 2004, in the Church document Communion and Stewardship, for the first time the Church accepted the reality of biological evolution. Science indeed changed the Teachings of the Church…again.

The Catechism itself says: “Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are” (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.”

The Church seems to go out of its way to say there is no conflict between itself and science, yet seems to choose which science to validate. The Teachings have changed numerous times when the science seemed to serve the Church’s best interest. The Church does not hold my key to heaven, the teachings of Christ and my faith in Him does. There is no doubt the Church will change its position on transsexuality. The issue is the damage that will be done to humankind before it does so.
We could start a whole other thread just treating the misconceoptions you have on the issues you mention aboive BUT none of the issues you mention have anythig to do with faith and Morals. The Church could not change its teachings on sexualtiy if it wanted to. -Truth is truth whether it is the first century or the 21st century.
 
Transsexuality is an issue of gender, not sexuality. I’m not sure what it is about that you fail to understand…male/female NOT homo/hetero/bi. Either way, I can assure you I’m under no misconceptions. You are offering up straw man arguments while refusing to acknowledge scientific fact…scientific fact in the same vein that has historically changed the position of the Church; any further attempt to communicate is fruitless.
 
The Church has no opinion as to whether transexualtiy is a matter of choice or is a of matter of science or choice. However that does not excuse the behavior-I would assume that all would agree that undergoing sex change surgery and /or transitioning is a choice.

We could start a whole other thread just treating the misconceoptions you have on the issues you mention aboive BUT none of the issues you mention have anythig to do with faith and Morals. The Church could not change its teachings on sexualtiy if it wanted to. -Truth is truth whether it is the first century or the 21st century.
Hello EstesBob, would you please define for our understanding your use of the word “sexuality” in the context of this thread?
 
Hello EstesBob, would you please define for our understanding your use of the word “sexuality” in the context of this thread?
The funnything here is over the years us transsexuals have been accused of dwelling on sex. Sexuality has yet to come accross my mind in dealing with my gender issues, while when you say gender to many people you get a blank stare. To me sounds like we are the clean of mind one’s and the the others pointing their finger at us are the one’s dwelling on sex far too too much.
 
Transsexuality is an issue of gender, not sexuality. I’m not sure what it is about that you fail to understand…male/female NOT homo/hetero/bi. Either way, I can assure you I’m under no misconceptions. You are offering up straw man arguments while refusing to acknowledge scientific fact…scientific fact in the same vein that has historically changed the position of the Church; any further attempt to communicate is fruitless.
I would like to point out that argument confusion is a common tactic used in bigotry propaganda of all types. Certainly this in no way betrays a bigotry held by many members of the Church, for which they use Church teaching as their foundation. 🤷
 
-I would assume that all would agree that undergoing sex change surgery and /or transitioning is a choice.
I’m afraid not. Take my own case for example. I will agree that not transitioning appeared to be an option in my case. I even purchased some FtoM magazines so as to learn about the surgical and other techniques that might be used to change my body against nature so I could maintain the pretence of being male. The deception.

I was, just, able to do that. But they remain unread, still in their wrappers. Some things are beyond human powers. I make no apology for that.

But beyond that, I’ll quote the medical standards of care:
Sex Reassignment is Effective and Medically Indicated in Severe GID. In persons diagnosed with transsexualism or profound GID, sex reassignment surgery, along with hormone therapy and real life experience, is a treatment that has proven to be effective. Such a therapeutic regimen, when prescribed or recommended by qualified practitioners, is medically indicated and medically necessary. Sex reassignment is not “experimental,” “investigational,” “elective,” “cosmetic,” or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID.
**…not…optional in any meaningful sense. **

It is exactly as optional as eating. One may choose not to eat, but there will be progressive deterioration ending in death if one does not. The timescale’s different, but the effect the same. For those with severe GID, it’s transition, die (by suicide or stress related illness), or have one’s mind decay to nothingness.

I was going for the “dying by stress-related illness” option. I had been since age 37, when I was told that I’d probably be dead by 40 from heart failure. I was SO LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT. I felt I’d earned it.

Instead… one of the things that happened as the result of the change was that the cardiac damage healed, and the LDL lipids clogging my arteries dissolved. Not overnight, but the damage visible 10 years ago is no longer there now, the progressive deterioration reversed.

Leaving me to wonder yet again… why me? I think there’s something wrong with the system when I get such a miracle (I’m not even a Believer) and so many who deserve it far more than I do, don’t.

But in summary, no, it’s not optional. Not for anyone. The only difference between my situation and most is that I can prove it.
 
I’m afraid not. Take my own case for example. I will agree that not transitioning appeared to be an option in my case. I even purchased some FtoM magazines so as to learn about the surgical and other techniques that might be used to change my body against nature so I could maintain the pretence of being male. The deception.

I was, just, able to do that. But they remain unread, still in their wrappers. Some things are beyond human powers. I make no apology for that.

But beyond that, I’ll quote the medical standards of care:

**…not…optional in any meaningful sense. **

It is exactly as optional as eating. One may choose not to eat, but there will be progressive deterioration ending in death if one does not. The timescale’s different, but the effect the same. For those with severe GID, it’s transition, die (by suicide or stress related illness), or have one’s mind decay to nothingness.

I was going for the “dying by stress-related illness” option. I had been since age 37, when I was told that I’d probably be dead by 40 from heart failure. I was SO LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT. I felt I’d earned it.

Instead… one of the things that happened as the result of the change was that the cardiac damage healed, and the LDL lipids clogging my arteries dissolved. Not overnight, but the damage visible 10 years ago is no longer there now, the progressive deterioration reversed.

Leaving me to wonder yet again… why me? I think there’s something wrong with the system when I get such a miracle (I’m not even a Believer) and so many who deserve it far more than I do, don’t.

But in summary, no, it’s not optional. Not for anyone. The only difference between my situation and most is that I can prove it.
Truly, I can understand the heart damage assertion you make, Zoe, as it has proven to be the case in my situation as well. Demonstrable, documented, reversed.
 
Truly, I can understand the heart damage assertion you make, Zoe, as it has proven to be the case in my situation as well. Demonstrable, documented, reversed.
Funny thing in my case I have highblood pressure, but no heart damage. Neither of my parents have hyper tension, hmmmmmmmmmmm. My function level has been declining little by little over the last decade also. While my transitioning is stuck in park , my motivation is going down hill. We transsexuals are good pretenders, but everyone has a limit on how long they can keep it up.🤷
 
In 2008, the number of violent crimes against the LGBT and
AIDS-affected communities of New York reported to AVP declined by 14
percent, from 403 to 348. The number of victims declined from 496 to
435, while the number of offenders remained nearly constant — 693 in
2008 versus 689 the year before.
However, the most serious types of crimes showed significant
increases. Murders rose from three to five; assaults, from 138 to 169;
and sexual assaults, from 17 to 46. Transgendered New Yorkers, a
relatively small percentage of the overall LGBT community, continue to
bear a disproportionate — and growing — share of this violence. Six
transgendered men and 62 trans women — or 15 percent of the total —
were among the 435 victims of the crimes AVP documented.
It’s getting worse, not better. The numbers of minor assaults are down for gays, the number of rapes, mutilations, and killings of Trans people up, and growing.
 
Transsexuality is an issue of gender, not sexuality. I’m not sure what it is about that you fail to understand…male/female NOT homo/hetero/bi. Either way, I can assure you I’m under no misconceptions. You are offering up straw man arguments while refusing to acknowledge scientific fact…scientific fact in the same vein that has historically changed the position of the Church; any further attempt to communicate is fruitless.
The only argument I have seen which actually addresses this issue is that God does not make mistakes and the person is saying that God did, in fact, make a mistake in designing their body and the psyche so that they do not match. My knee-jerk reaction to this is what about hair-dye, make-up, piercings, eye color changing contacts, corrective surgeries to correct misshapen limbs, etc. I would be interested in hearing some of the poster’s thoughts on these issues.
 
The funnything here is over the years us transsexuals have been accused of dwelling on sex. Sexuality has yet to come accross my mind in dealing with my gender issues, while when you say gender to many people you get a blank stare. To me sounds like we are the clean of mind one’s and the the others pointing their finger at us are the one’s dwelling on sex far too too much.
I will admit that it is difficult for me to understand how someone could feel that their body is the wrong gender. I am not saying this as any kind of judgment, moral or otherwise, it is a simple fact. I have always been a man; I have always been comfortable being a man; thus, I have a hard time understanding not feeling comfortable with your born gender. I hope that makes sense?
 
It’s getting worse, not better. The numbers of minor assaults are down for gays, the number of rapes, mutilations, and killings of Trans people up, and growing.
Zoey,

What do you think of the movie Boys Don’t Cry (if you’ve seen it)?
 
I will admit that it is difficult for me to understand how someone could feel that their body is the wrong gender. I am not saying this as any kind of judgment, moral or otherwise, it is a simple fact. I have always been a man; I have always been comfortable being a man; thus, I have a hard time understanding not feeling comfortable with your born gender. I hope that makes sense?
Of course it makes sense 🙂
I feel the same way - now. After transition.

Now imagine if you woke up tomorrow with a body of the opposite sex. What would you do?
 
Of course it makes sense 🙂
I feel the same way - now. After transition.

Now imagine if you woke up tomorrow with a body of the opposite sex. What would you do?
That’s just it, I don’t know. I couldn’t even venture a guess at how that would feel. I’m not making light of the situation in any way, I just don’t even have anything I could compare it to.
 
That’s just it, I don’t know. I couldn’t even venture a guess at how that would feel. I’m not making light of the situation in any way, I just don’t even have anything I could compare it to.
Here’s a male view. From a guy I know. It may help you understand, a little. I’m not sure complete understanding is possible, but I really appreciate your honesty and goodwill here. Sometimes understanding is helpful, rather than necessary.

Part 1
When Zoe asked me to write this, I said, “Sure. It’s my Honour. But it may take me a couple of days. Work’s pretty busy you know.” I sat and looked at the first couple of paragraphs for a while, then the exercise became cathartic and work just had to wait…
Where Zoe has used analogy to explain, I’ve tried to describe a journey. For those that prefer analogies see here and here.
Code:
"I have never met you, Zoe, but every time I read your comments, I tend to think of you as Alan - sorry, but I just cannot help it."
A few months ago, I received an email from a friend. It wasn’t the only similar email I received last year, but this friend was a particularly close one.
Code:
"X, Don't know how to say this. You can run away screaming if you want, I won't blame you. You see, I'm a girl."
My immediate thought was Hug. My next thought, was, well I’m not going to push… but I wonder if she’s picked a name yet (I soon found out that she’d had it picked since she was 10), I can’t very well go calling her by a guy’s name.
For me the switch was that easy. I trust someone’s mind more than their body. I know how the body can say one thing, while the mind screams the opposite - even if no-one can hear. But then again, I’m finally in the process of changing my body to match my head. Oh, running away screaming wasn’t an option. I’ve seen people do that and it’s SCARY.
 
Part 2:
Imagine yourself as a small child. Your body, apart from those bits normally concealed by your undies is sexually ambiguous. And the hidden bits don’t do anything anyway - they don’t really bug you. But you know what Dad looks like - that thick, hanging thing. In your dreams, you have one too, but it’s always gone when you wake up. You get used to it.
You start growing up. You hit puberty, your breasts start to grow and are extremely painful. One morning you wake up and your bottom sheet (normally blue) is bright red and your legs and hands and face are blood smeared. You knew this would happen eventually, but you thought that your head would change at the same time - that you’d no longer feel like a boy. Instead you’re more a boy and kinda scared. But you know that if you act like a boy, you’ll get a talking-to from your parents. You sit and bear all the reminders (more frequent now that you bleed and have things on your chest) to act like a lady, wondering when you’ll feel like a lady and when someone will tell you how to act like a lady. It’s hard work looking at everyone and cataloging their actions, working out how women are meant to behave. And it feels so wrong when you do that stuff.
Around about the same time, you realise, rather suddenly, that when what’s happening to you finishes, IT LOOKS REALLY GOOD! Not to put too fine a point on it, you Like Girls. Well that explains everything then. You’re a Lesbian. You guess all lesbians feel like they’re really boys in disguise - that’s why they like other girls right? Because they’re only sort-of girls? It’s normal for a lesbian to hate wearing a bra - because it makes her chest shape all wrong. It’s normal for a lesbian to feel embarrassed and hate her body below the waist. And above.
Then the real test comes: You’ve never really had any romantic attachment before. For some reason it has always felt wrong and you’ve avoided it. Sure sometimes you take special care, go out wearing a shirt and tie, bind the chest and uh. something in the trousers. It feels good but as soon as you start talking to someone, your voice gives you away as a pretender, a wannabe.
But someone comes along, someone that you could talk to forever, hold forever. She’s a beautiful woman and God, you Want her. She’s keen on you too and before you know wht’s happening, you’re lying, naked, warm and relaxed in a mutual embrace. But even in ecstasy (and that’s hard enough), you can’t fully suppress the screaming in your head. Your body is wrong.
Is there any way to fix it? Whose idea is this anyway? Making you walk around for your entire life with the wrong shaped body. Why do people look at you and say “Yeah, right” when you say that you’re a guy?
You find out that there is hormones and surgery. In the first, you’re lucky: In a hormone fight, Testosterone wins. In the second, not so good, they can fix your chest such that it’s flat, they can remove the parts that make you bleed (though that’ll stop anyway with T), but you’ll never have the penis that you can feel.
Once you consent to going through puberty again, you’re on your way to becoming the guy you’ve always been - and it’s only a few years too late. But there’s a problem. People you love, people you work with, people you socialise with. They were all dependent on having a daughter, a sister, a female colleague, a female friend. I mean you had a female name right? Even though you never acted like a daughter, a sister, a girl, a woman. Somehow the fact that you were badged, when you were barely self aware is meant to define you forever. They reject you. They know your body will never be complete enough to reproduce and so they condemn you to be a girl forever. They’ll never accept you as anything but.
There is hope though, some people, even if they don’t really understand what it’s like for the head to say something different to the genitals, care. And you’ll go on in life and meet people that never knew you as a wannabe girl. They’ll just see, and work with and share with the man you are. You’ll care a bit more about women too - people you work and live with - because once, you faced the same challenges as they do. For you it was harder - you weren’t wired for it, most of them are. They always could bear to look in the mirror, they always felt right when someone they loved loved them, they always woke up with all the right bits attached, all the right clothes in the wardrobe. Now, so do you.
 
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