The reason for human suffering

[Yehuda_Dion]

It’s because of Adam and Eve’s very grave sin (as revealed by Our Lord to Saint Faustina, I can’t remember the exact wording though) and Almighty God’s subsequent curse on the entire race (“You will have to work hard and sweat to make the soil produce anything, until you go back to the soil from which you were formed.” - Good News Translation). We shouldn’t blame Adam or Eve, though, since placed in the exact same situation most or all of the race (the BVM excepted) would probably have done the very same thing. And neither is God unfair; remember, “As the sky is high above the earth, so is my ways above yours.” We don’t, and perhaps never will, know God’s reasons for doing certain things a certain way. What we CAN and have been permitted to know, though, is that all his ways are founded on steadfast love (read this somewhere, probably the Bible, though can’t remember which book). God’s peace and blessings on you all, brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

 

[Sample]

It’s because of Adam and Eve’s very grave sin (as revealed by Our Lord to Saint Faustina, I can’t remember the exact wording though) and Almighty God’s subsequent curse on the entire race (“You will have to work hard and sweat to make the soil produce anything, until you go back to the soil from which you were formed.” - Good News Translation). We shouldn’t blame Adam or Eve, though, since placed in the exact same situation most or all of the race (the BVM excepted) would probably have done the very same thing. And neither is God unfair; remember, “As the sky is high above the earth, so is my ways above yours.” We don’t, and perhaps never will, know God’s reasons for doing certain things a certain way. What we CAN and have been permitted to know, though, is that all his ways are founded on steadfast love (read this somewhere, probably the Bible, though can’t remember which book). God’s peace and blessings on you all, brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

I remain unable to justify the often heard sentiments that Yahweh is love with the fact that human suffering is willfully permitted. Either I don’t know what love is, or I am being asked to subsribe to the notion of a permanent cognitive dissonance on the subject. On the other hand the subject which has been put on the Index of Forbidden Topics perfectly explains suffering without any appeal to mystery.

 

[Hokomai]

It’s because of Adam and Eve’s very grave sin (as revealed by Our Lord to Saint Faustina, I can’t remember the exact wording though) and Almighty God’s subsequent curse on the entire race (“You will have to work hard and sweat to make the soil produce anything, until you go back to the soil from which you were formed.” - Good News Translation). We shouldn’t blame Adam or Eve, though, since placed in the exact same situation most or all of the race (the BVM excepted) would probably have done the very same thing. And neither is God unfair; remember, “As the sky is high above the earth, so is my ways above yours.” We don’t, and perhaps never will, know God’s reasons for doing certain things a certain way. What we CAN and have been permitted to know, though, is that all his ways are founded on steadfast love (read this somewhere, probably the Bible, though can’t remember which book). God’s peace and blessings on you all, brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

So we are expected to worship and praise a God who causes innocent children to suffer great pain, and then die because of something someone else did? If this is God’s peace and blessing, then it does not matter what his reasons are, he cannot be good, or just. I think it more likely he’s just not there at all.

 

[Dorothy]

So we are expected to worship and praise a God who causes innocent children to suffer great pain, and then die because of something someone else did? If this is God’s peace and blessing, then it does not matter what his reasons are, he cannot be good, or just. I think it more likely he’s just not there at all.

I dare not question the extraordinary mysteries of God, as He is Infinite, and I am finite.

If I should question suffering I am reminded that it is short, and that His Love is everlasting. And, all I need do is look at a Crucifix and ponder what He did for me. Suffering conforms me to Christ. There is no one who goes without some form of suffering in this world.

I want to rise with Him and be with Him forever; so I follow the Infinitely Loving Lord to the Cross. Without the Cross there is no Resurrection!

Thanks be to the Lord for His immense love for all of us!

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Thanks be to the Lord for His immense love for all of us!

Amen, sister!

 

[Carrie1]

Uh-ohhttp://www.cleaningcassette.com

 

[reconman]

It’s because of Adam and Eve’s very grave sin (as revealed by Our Lord to Saint Faustina, I can’t remember the exact wording though) and Almighty God’s subsequent curse on the entire race (“You will have to work hard and sweat to make the soil produce anything, until you go back to the soil from which you were formed.” - Good News Translation). We shouldn’t blame Adam or Eve, though, since placed in the exact same situation most or all of the race (the BVM excepted) would probably have done the very same thing.

Agreed.

And neither is God unfair;

Fairness implies that the same rules (or circumstances) would apply to all, or none. The fact that some people suffer horribly while others do not is certainly not fair.

We don’t, and perhaps never will, know God’s reasons for doing certain things a certain way.

Indeed. But again, that does not imply fairness.

 

[laircy]

patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/05/why-christianity-is-far-more-sensible-than-whatever-youre-doing-right-now.html

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

I remain unable to justify the often heard sentiments that Yahweh is love with the fact that human suffering is willfully permitted. Either I don’t know what love is, or I am being asked to subsribe to the notion of a permanent cognitive dissonance on the subject. On the other hand the subject which has been put on the Index of Forbidden Topics perfectly explains suffering without any appeal to mystery.

Are you a parent? If so, do you ever let your children suffer for their own benefit? Would your children be ultimately happy if you gave them everything their heart desired, and attempted remove all suffering, no matter how small, from their lives?

Would that be love?

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

So we are expected to worship and praise a God who causes innocent children to suffer great pain, and then die because of something someone else did? If this is God’s peace and blessing, then it does not matter what his reasons are, he cannot be good, or just. I think it more likely he’s just not there at all.

Why do you believe that God causes what you accuse him of causing? He does not; and if you believe that he does, then you do not know God, and it is understandable why you do not accept that He exists. If you misunderstand God, your view of Him will be flawed, and a flawed view of God provides to us a vision of a flawed God.

When you start your question with ‘If this is God’s peace and blessing,…’ then your question will be unanswerable, because that ‘If’ is a big loud, 'NO".

An observation that I would like to share; You mention justice. In our contemporary world, the most obvious place of justice is oin ur civil courts. I sat on a jury for a civil trial almost 20 years ago that was reported in the papers. During that trial, the jury was not supposed to read the press coverage of the trial, and my wife saved the papers for me. After the trial was over and the jury reached it decision, I went home and read the newspapers.

After reading the newspapers, I realized that if I had only read the newspapers and not been in the courtroom for two weeks listening to the complete testimony, I would have disagreed with the jury verdict, and thought it was very unjust.

The lesson? It is impossible to know what is just without the complete story. If you know as much as God does (everything, including the thoughts of people, and what is going to happen in the future through to the end of eternity), then you will possibly decide that God is not being just. However, you are attempting to determine justice with just a small slice of the infomration, and like I experienced, you quite possibly will believe that injustice was done.

 

[Hokomai]

Why do you believe that God causes what you accuse him of causing? He does not; and if you believe that he does, then you do not know God, and it is understandable why you do not accept that He exists. If you misunderstand God, your view of Him will be flawed, and a flawed view of God provides to us a vision of a flawed God.

When you start your question with ‘If this is God’s peace and blessing,…’ then your question will be unanswerable, because that ‘If’ is a big loud, 'NO".

An observation that I would like to share; You mention justice. In our contemporary world, the most obvious place of justice is oin ur civil courts. I sat on a jury for a civil trial almost 20 years ago that was reported in the papers. During that trial, the jury was not supposed to read the press coverage of the trial, and my wife saved the papers for me. After the trial was over and the jury reached it decision, I went home and read the newspapers.

After reading the newspapers, I realized that if I had only read the newspapers and not been in the courtroom for two weeks listening to the complete testimony, I would have disagreed with the jury verdict, and thought it was very unjust.

The lesson? It is impossible to know what is just without the complete story. If you know as much as God does (everything, including the thoughts of people, and what is going to happen in the future through to the end of eternity), then you will possibly decide that God is not being just. However, you are attempting to determine justice with just a small slice of the information, and like I experienced, you quite possibly will believe that injustice was done.

An interesting analogy. But there are some things which require no jury, or even much thought. If there is an all-powerful God, he could have created a world in which the innocent with no possibility of eternal reward (animals) did not suffer. But they do, and not only as a result of human activity. Indeed, for hundreds of millions of years before humans, animals suffered. You can find their fossilized bones, still contorted in agony, all over the world. And while it seems OK to Christians that God should allow children to suffer because of something their ancestors did, it does not seem OK to me. To me the logic is obvious. There is a God, and he is either not all-loving and good, or not all powerful, or there is no God. Any way you look at it the basics of Christian belief are ruled out.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

An interesting analogy. But there are some things which require no jury, or even much thought.

Uh oh. Whenever someone tells me a complex subject is simple and does not require much thought, I wonder how much thought they actually gave it.

If there is an all-powerful God, he could have created a world in which the innocent with no possibility of eternal reward (animals) did not suffer.

Why? Essentially you are saying that since animals even die, there can’t be a God? Why must God work that way? I am afraid it is not as simple as you say it is.

And while it seems OK to Christians that God should allow children to suffer because of something their ancestors did, it does not seem OK to me.

Ah, you still don’t understand suffering. Are you a parent? If so, do you ever allow your children to suffer? Or do you work to prevent all of their possible suffering? Do you ever cause your children to suffer? Perhaps a spanking, taking something away, a stern look, a timeout? If you would ever do one of these things, for what purpose?

To me the logic is obvious. There is a God, and he is either not all-loving and good, or not all powerful, or there is no God. Any way you look at it the basics of Christian belief are ruled out.

And, the real question is, are you so rooted in your ‘conclusions’ about God that you do not consider reason that would indicate they are wrong?

Thanks for the discussion(s)!

 

[thistle]

So we are expected to worship and praise a God who causes innocent children to suffer great pain, and then die because of something someone else did? If this is God’s peace and blessing, then it does not matter what his reasons are, he cannot be good, or just. I think it more likely he’s just not there at all.

I recommend you read a book called Making Sense Out Of Suffering by Peter Kreeft.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

An interesting analogy. But there are some things which require no jury, or even much thought. If there is an all-powerful God, he could have created a world in which the innocent with no possibility of eternal reward (animals) did not suffer. But they do, and not only as a result of human activity. Indeed, for hundreds of millions of years before humans, animals suffered. You can find their fossilized bones, still contorted in agony, all over the world. And while it seems OK to Christians that God should allow children to suffer because of something their ancestors did, it does not seem OK to me. To me the logic is obvious. There is a God, and he is either not all-loving and good, or not all powerful, or there is no God. Any way you look at it the basics of Christian belief are ruled out.

Stop trying to influence people with your unbelief. We’re better off than you are. We don’t need or want your vile poison.

 

[Hokomai]

Uh oh. Whenever someone tells me a complex subject is simple and does not require much thought, I wonder how much thought they actually gave it.

Sometimes things are made complex to avoid the obvious. The Christian response to the so-called ‘problem of pain’ is in my respectful view, and example.

Why? Essentially you are saying that since animals even die, there can’t be a God? Why must God work that way? I am afraid it is not as simple as you say it is.

What i was saying was that if God was all-powerful, he could work that way.

Ah, you still don’t understand suffering. Are you a parent? If so, do you ever allow your children to suffer? Or do you work to prevent all of their possible suffering? Do you ever cause your children to suffer? Perhaps a spanking, taking something away, a stern look, a timeout? If you would ever do one of these things, for what purpose?

I certainly do not take the children of those who have done me wrong and starve them to death, or make them suffer unspeakable pain, and neither would I view any parent who did any of these things to be other than an abuser.

And, the real question is, are you so rooted in your ‘conclusions’ about God that you do not consider reason that would indicate they are wrong?

Not at all. A conclusion that there is an all-loving, all powerful God, who is easily able to explain why billions of his creatures experienced great agony before humans appeared on the planet, and why humans with no part in sinning done by their ancestors suffer today, would be most welcome. I liked believing in God, and would do so again, were it to appear reasonable to do so.

Thanks for the discussion(s)! You too.

 

[mercytruth]

I thank God for the suffering He has allowed, or even given to me. Being an insufferable, proud, stubborn, judgemental, and selfish person, it took suffering to humble me and bring me to the place where other human beings can now tolerate my presence. (and I was a somewhat innocent child before I became an adult).

God is so much wiser than the cynics, doubters, and atheists, and some day I hope they learn how merciful He really is.

May His face shine upon you.

 

[Hokomai]

I thank God for the suffering He has allowed, or even given to me. Being an insufferable, proud, stubborn, judgemental, and selfish person, it took suffering to humble me and bring me to the place where other human beings can now tolerate my presence. (and I was a somewhat innocent child before I became an adult).

God is so much wiser than the cynics, doubters, and atheists, and some day I hope they learn how merciful He really is.

May His face shine upon you.

Than you for thinking of us. May I respectfully ask why you do not thank God for the suffering he has allowed others, such as babies, to experience? Surely from your point of view that must be equally good as that you have yourself experienced?

 

[john78]

psh the reason for human suffering, really ?

why do children suffer, why is there such evil in the world, why as humans do we suffer ??

Does anyone remember the Christ dieing on the Cross and what he went through before that ?

of course we do not have to like suffering, but do we as human beings really expect anything less than what Christ went through on this earth ? If we as humans have the ability to become a Priest or Nun, to cast out demons, to reach Sainthood, how are we to really think that life is going to be easy, that no child will ever be hurt, that loved ones wont be harmed, that evil will not exisit in the world ?

why is suffering good enough for Christ, but not humans ?

we do not have to like having to go through suffering, we have emotions, we embrace them to the best of our ability, what we do have is a Promise by the Holy Trinity that He will be with us through our suffering. Just as Christ was not alone in his 40 days in the desert, or his agony n the garden or his final breath on the Cross,

We draw strength from Christ suffering, we as a nation in times of war through out history from our very foundation have drawn strength in suffering right up till our present time now.

Tell me of one saint who hasnt suffered ?

 

[Hokomai]

psh the reason for human suffering, really ?

why do children suffer, why is there such evil in the world, why as humans do we suffer ??

Does anyone remember the Christ dieing on the Cross and what he went through before that ?

of course we do not have to like suffering, but do we as human beings really expect anything less than what Christ went through on this earth ? If we as humans have the ability to become a Priest or Nun, to cast out demons, to reach Sainthood, how are we to really think that life is going to be easy, that no child will ever be hurt, that loved ones wont be harmed, that evil will not exisit in the world ?

why is suffering good enough for Christ, but not humans ?

we do not have to like having to go through suffering, we have emotions, we embrace them to the best of our ability, what we do have is a Promise by the Holy Trinity that He will be with us through our suffering. Just as Christ was not alone in his 40 days in the desert, or his agony n the garden or his final breath on the Cross,

We draw strength from Christ suffering, we as a nation in times of war through out history from our very foundation have drawn strength in suffering right up till our present time now.

Tell me of one saint who hasnt suffered ?

As someone said once; saying that an all-powerful and all-loving God will not do anything to help those innocent who are suffering, but will support them, puts God on the same level as our mothers, or our nice neighbors. Not much of a God. And nothing you have said address the question of why an all-loving all-powerful God would allow the suffering of literally trillions of non-human creatures, prior to any human opportunity to sin at all.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Mods, I as the OP respectfully request that this thread be closed. Thank you.