The reason for human suffering

[tbmeg]

Before this thread is closed, I´ll like to contribute my 2 cents on what I think could be the case why people suffer. I have 2 hypothesis:

1. I believe the suffering is to keep us close to God. Most people remember God only in pain and desperation and if God decides to take all suffering away, he might be forgotten or taken for granted. Even with all these sufferings around us, most people dont still care about God.
2. I´ve been reading a little about the after-life and there´s this great hypnotist Michael Newton who claims to hypnotize people such that they say something about the after-life. Some of his clients claim to have been on earth more than once. They say before a soul decides to come to earth, it undergoes some kind of preparation from it´s mentor( I´ld guess this is a guardian angel) and when the soul is done with the preparation, it´s shown a body to take or several bodies to choose. Most souls choose a body which will enable them to grow spiritually and improve on their energy level in the after-life. They say they´re different energy levels for different souls and according to the way one lives on earth, one increases on ones energy level and become closer to the source (God).

I know this is a bit difficult to understand but earth is just like passing through a university. Some graduate from the university with excellence(I guess this could be the saints). We all know what amount of work or what kind of suffering one can go through to graduate with excellence. Some graduate with very good, some good, some average and some fail(I´ld guess all these dictators who see it necessary to kill many people have actually failed this university and might have even been expelled. i.e they wouldnt be given a chance to come on earth again).

Those who graduated with an average result might see it necessary to retake the exams(i.e come on earth once more to better themselves). And in other to do that, the soul must be willing to go through much sufferings or do lots of good work to humanity in other to improve. Which means before anyone comes on earth, that person chooses his family, his condition, he knows what is going to come but chooses it all the same becuase at the end of the day and if he doesnt get side-tracked by the devil, it will all be to the betterment of the soul.

So, I agree with the poster who says we should NOT jump to conclusions when we dont know the whole story. We dont know 1/1000000 of what goes on in the after-life. All these challenges makes life interesting(that´s why it´s a gift) and without them, life will be paradise and “boring”.

 

[mercytruth]

Than you for thinking of us. May I respectfully ask why you do not thank God for the suffering he has allowed others, such as babies, to experience? Surely from your point of view that must be equally good as that you have yourself experienced?

Respectfully, it would be presumptuous for me to know the mind of God. However, it is my faith that He is a perfect balance of justice and mercy. There is something worse than physical suffering, and that is eternal separation from the One who is Holy and dwells in light that is inapproachable.

Speaking for myself, I am so unholy, I must be purged so that I can enter into the presence of the Holy One. Eventhough the suffering crucifixion of Jesus Christ takes the away the guilt of my sins, it does not change my deep rooted attitudes and behaviors. So I must be changed in this way through the humility of suffering in order to enter into the presence of the Holy One, since pride and self-will are the roots of all that is unholy.

To understand spiritual things, one must receive the Spirit of God. Nothing will ever make spiritual sense to you from a purely rational and intellectual basis. I could converse with you until doom’s day, but it will not make any sense to you, so with that I bid you God’s peace.

 

[Dorothy]

Before this thread is closed, I´ll like to contribute my 2 cents on what I think could be the case why people suffer. I have 2 hypothesis:

1. I believe the suffering is to keep us close to God. Most people remember God only in pain and desperation and if God decides to take all suffering away, he might be forgotten or taken for granted. Even with all these sufferings around us, most people dont still care about God.
2. I´ve been reading a little about the after-life and there´s this great hypnotist Michael Newton who claims to hypnotize people such that they say something about the after-life. Some of his clients claim to have been on earth more than once. They say before a soul decides to come to earth, it undergoes some kind of preparation from it´s mentor( I´ld guess this is a guardian angel) and when the soul is done with the preparation, it´s shown a body to take or several bodies to choose. Most souls choose a body which will enable them to grow spiritually and improve on their energy level in the after-life. They say they´re different energy levels for different souls and according to the way one lives on earth, one increases on ones energy level and become closer to the source (God).

I know this is a bit difficult to understand but earth is just like passing through a university. Some graduate from the university with excellence(I guess this could be the saints). We all know what amount of work or what kind of suffering one can go through to graduate with excellence. Some graduate with very good, some good, some average and some fail(I´ld guess all these dictators who see it necessary to kill many people have actually failed this university and might have even been expelled. i.e they wouldnt be given a chance to come on earth again).

Those who graduated with an average result might see it necessary to retake the exams(i.e come on earth once more to better themselves). And in other to do that, the soul must be willing to go through much sufferings or do lots of good work to humanity in other to improve. Which means before anyone comes on earth, that person chooses his family, his condition, he knows what is going to come but chooses it all the same becuase at the end of the day and if he doesnt get side-tracked by the devil, it will all be to the betterment of the soul.

So, I agree with the poster who says we should NOT jump to conclusions when we dont know the whole story. We dont know 1/1000000 of what goes on in the after-life. All these challenges makes life interesting(that´s why it´s a gift) and without them, life will be paradise and “boring”.

The beliefs you mention do not come from the Catholic Church. Reincarnation was thought up by those who did not have Divine Revelation. It is very esoteric sounding but a lie.

“It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment.” That is from Sacred Scripture.

The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is enough for one life…in which we have many chances to choose Him above all things.

 

[tbmeg]

The beliefs you mention do not come from the Catholic Church. Reincarnation was thought up by those who did not have Divine Revelation. It is very esoteric sounding but a lie.

“It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment.” That is from Sacred Scripture.

The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is enough for one life…in which we have many chances to choose Him above all things.

Yea, the whole thing could have been made by people seeking to understand the purpose of life but we can all agree that we dont know much about this life and the after-life. The bible has given us an idea but I believe there´s still much to it.

Take care

 

[Hokomai]

Reincarnation and karma are very much better explanations of suffering that that offered by the Catholic Church. I do not accept them, either, but they certainly make more sense, and are a great deal more comforting.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Essentially you are saying that since animals even die, there can’t be a God? Why must God work that way? I am afraid it is not as simple as you say it is.

What i was saying was that if God was all-powerful, he could work that way.

Hmmm. It is conceivable to the human mind that God COULD work that way, but that is not relevant. The human mind has no trouble imagining infinite ways that God COULD work. Just because you can imagine a way that He COULD work in which He does not actually work, indicates nothing about the existence of God. Perhaps you meant to say something different?

Ah, you still don’t understand suffering. Are you a parent? If so, do you ever allow your children to suffer? Or do you work to prevent all of their possible suffering? Do you ever cause your children to suffer? Perhaps a spanking, taking something away, a stern look, a timeout? If you would ever do one of these things, for what purpose?

I certainly do not take the children of those who have done me wrong and starve them to death, or make them suffer unspeakable pain, and neither would I view any parent who did any of these things to be other than an abuser.

I assume that your answer to my question is yes, and that you acknowledge that God allowing some suffering can be a sign of His love for us. Now proceding on to the issue you introduced… Why do you believe that God does these OTHER things? I don’t believe that He does.

And, the real question is, are you so rooted in your ‘conclusions’ about God that you do not consider reason that would indicate they are wrong?

Not at all. A conclusion that there is an all-loving, all powerful God, who is easily able to explain why billions of his creatures experienced great agony before humans appeared on the planet, and why humans with no part in sinning done by their ancestors suffer today, would be most welcome. I liked believing in God, and would do so again, were it to appear reasonable to do so.

Firstly, you have my respect for your openness. Addressing your reply, why are you looking for an easy explanation? Did you get some sort of guarantee that it would be easy? Expect it to be more difficult, invest the commensurate amount of work at understanding, and you may come to a more real understanding of God. When I attended graduate school, if I expected the classes to be easy, I set myself up for failure; failure to understand the material. When I expected my classes to be tough, I was much more successful at learning.

A direct question: Going back to my parent child analogy; can suffering ever be good for us? Or if we really love our children, must we show our love by attempting to prevent every form of suffering, no matter how small, to the level our capabilities allow. I know you are avoiding answering this question, and your avoidance should be taken by you as an attempt NOT to find truth. That is my my two cents, and intended in a respectful way to someone who fairly consistently does seem to be seeking what is true.

Thank you,

Dan

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

And nothing you have said address the question of why an all-loving all-powerful God would allow the suffering of literally trillions of non-human creatures, prior to any human opportunity to sin at all.

Do you believe this to be unjust?

 

[Hokomai]

Do you believe this to be unjust?

No only unjust, but evil, were there to be a being who so ordered things. Such a being should be opposed and resisted.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

No only unjust, but evil, were there to be a being who so ordered things. Such a being should be opposed and resisted.

Ah, you allow for no possibility that a God so holy HAD to allow suffering to afflict the human race to atone for the sin of our parents that so offended His holy nature (the original sin). God allowed suffering only because our parents dirtied themselves and the whole race with them before Him. Would you rather He had thrown them into hell itself? He would, and indeed could never have since he is Love and Mercy itself. Now I ask you, are you one of his sons or a son of the devil? If you are his son, stop offending Him! You have done so quite enough!

 

[Hokomai]

Ah, you allow for no possibility that a God so holy HAD to allow suffering to afflict the human race to atone for the sin of our parents that so offended His holy nature (the original sin). God allowed suffering only because our parents dirtied themselves and the whole race with them before Him. Would you rather He had thrown them into hell itself? He would, and indeed could never have since he is Love and Mercy itself. Now I ask you, are you one of his sons or a son of the devil? If you are his son, stop offending Him! You have done so quite enough!

Leaving aside the issue of group punishment, which would have God prosecuted for war crimes under modern international law, can you explain why God allowed the suffering of billions upon billions of animals before humans even appeared on earth? In effect, if he exists, he did throw these creatures into hell, as there is no immortal life for them. The devil, incidentally, in scripture is not held responsible for things anything like as heinous as those attributed to God (for example the genocide at Jericho). I am not a son of either, but I am not sure why the devil is held in such low regard, given his relatively benign portrayal in scripture.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Leaving aside the issue of group punishment, which would have God prosecuted for war crimes under modern international law, can you explain why God allowed the suffering of billions upon billions of animals before humans even appeared on earth? In effect, if he exists, he did throw these creatures into hell, as there is no immortal life for them. The devil, incidentally, in scripture is not held responsible for things anything like as heinous as those attributed to God (for example the genocide at Jericho). I am not a son of either, but I am not sure why the devil is held in such low regard, given his relatively benign portrayal in scripture.

I dont presume to judge God given my infinitely small understanding of His holy ways. I think you ought do the same.

 

[Hokomai]

I don’t presume to judge God given my infinitely small understanding of His holy ways. I think you ought do the same.

I understand your point of view, but is it not part of your religion that God is loving, all-powerful, and makes himself known to us? Is it not then incumbent on you to at least suggest why he would allow such apparently strong arguments against his existence to remain unchallenged by anything in revelation, while revealing his will on comparatively trivial matters?

 

[tbmeg]

I understand your point of view, but is it not part of your religion that God is loving, all-powerful, and makes himself known to us? Is it not then incumbent on you to at least suggest why he would allow such apparently strong arguments against his existence to remain unchallenged by anything in revelation, while revealing his will on comparatively trivial matters?

Hokomai, I believe when we die, everything will become clearer. It´s better to believe in the existence of a God now, than not to believe and to discover there´s actually one when u die. It might be too late then.

I do believe in a God becuase I feel it. If u really want to be sure that God exist, pray and ask him to manifest himself to u and it will be done.

 

[Sonny1954]

Reincarnation and karma are very much better explanations of suffering that that offered by the Catholic Church. I do not accept them, either, but they certainly make more sense, and are a great deal more comforting.

As the father of a child born with cerebral palsy, bipolar disorder and tourette’s syndrome, through no will of his own, I certainly agree with you sir. I’ve learned through physically and emotionally painful experience that God has no intention of helping my child. I prayed til I was hoarse and knelt til my knees were raw. God was pleased to maintain his silence.

 

[tbmeg]

As the father of a child born with cerebral palsy, bipolar disorder and tourette’s syndrome, through no will of his own, I certainly agree with you sir. I’ve learned through physically and emotionally painful experience that God has no intention of helping my child. I prayed til I was hoarse and knelt til my knees were raw. God was pleased to maintain his silence.

Sorry to hear this but as they say, no prayer goes unheard and Gods timing is different from ours.
If the reincarnation thing is actually true, then God might only help to console us with our troubles and give us strength to continue but wouldnt take the problems away because the person suffering actually choosed his state before comming to earth. That is his own spiritual progress although people around him suffer more.
At the end of the day, this is all a guess and we´ll never know the real reasons. But dont be discourged, keep on praying and offer ur child the attention he/she needs.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

I understand your point of view, but is it not part of your religion that God is loving, all-powerful, and makes himself known to us? Is it not then incumbent on you to at least suggest why he would allow such apparently strong arguments against his existence to remain unchallenged by anything in revelation, while revealing his will on comparatively trivial matters?

Trust is the surest proof of love. If God wants to test my trust in Him by permitting certain scenarios to take place that are beyond my human, and thus incomparably small, mind to understand I will still love Him anyway, because as my religion teaches, God is love. God deserves my love and I give him my love freely.

 

[john78]

I also come back to the Blessed Mother Mary,

She knew the destiny of her Son,

no mother knows what their child will go through in life, Mary knew, and yet she still accepted the call from the Holy Trinty…

How we choose to accept " suffering " is ours alone, it doesnt ease anyone in the time of suffering to know that someone would gladly trade places with us, all we can focus on is the pain we are in.

Maybe we should stop asking why there is human suffering, and start asking how do we handle it.

So we can choose to hate God during our suffering, or even be angry with God, then where does that get us ?

Further away from him when we need him the most in our lives. It is beyond easy to hate .

It is so,so easy to hate,and want to seek vengance, and take matters into our own hands , or claim with the utmost of certainty there is no God,

but to seek strength in the face of suffering is amazing, and that is when we see the strength of others and draw upon it to get through our own.

America could have laid down after 9/11, during WWI & II and there will be those who say we didn’t do enough or acted too late, or went to extremes, that isn’t the point.

America could have laid down in times of suffering and said ya know what, there is no God, we are defeated. Where would we be then ?

Where would we be if Christ and the Saints gave up during their suffering ?

What are we doing to make sure those who have already gone through what we went through are not suffering alone ?

How many parents are out there who lost a loved one, or child, or has children with disabilities and has no one to help or support them yet they carry on, not damning God but wishing someone would just talk to them ?

The Analogies could go on for days, but if one chooses to close their mind,soul,and heart to God, then there is only so much others can do for them. Because if they close them self off to God how are mere humans supposed to help them ?

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

No only unjust, but evil, were there to be a being who so ordered things. Such a being should be opposed and resisted.

Are justice and evil objective absolutes? Or are they subjective and relative, depending upon the conscious perception of reality, and variable depending on what is perceived? You speak as if the concepts of justice and evil are absolutes. If they are, then where do we look for their definitive definitions?

 

[fred_conty]

I remain unable to justify the often heard sentiments that Yahweh is love with the fact that human suffering is willfully permitted. Either I don’t know what love is, or I am being asked to subsribe to the notion of a permanent cognitive dissonance on the subject. On the other hand the subject which has been put on the Index of Forbidden Topics perfectly explains suffering without any appeal to mystery.

There is a time to be born and there is a time to die.
Every living thing on this planet goes thru this cycle, it is a part of nature.
Whether it be a tree, bug, tomato plant, rabbit, butterfly, horse, fish, bird, or man.
That is the course of nature and it will continue to recycle itself for the betterment of all.

The spider needs the fly.
Man needs the cow.
The bird needs the bug.
The sheep need the grass.
The fish need the shrimp.
Death, which is a part of nature, is needed to do good things for our planet.

If nothing died, where would we be?
If an old thing never died, where would we be?

Why do living things experience pain? To indicate something is wrong and tend it.
Pain, although it is suffering, is good.
A toothache prevents blood poisening by warning of the infection.
A painfull thorn from a bush warns us to be careful.
A heartfelt tear is a release from our sorrow.

Death of itself is not a bad thing because of the betterment of the total.
If death is painful, it is a byproduct of the total good coming about.

I think the real question is why is there unnecessary death in our world?
And why are WE doing nothing?

And if we aren’t doing something about it, then why are we pointing our finger?

Just a thought.

 

[Hokomai]

As the father of a child born with cerebral palsy, bipolar disorder and tourette’s syndrome, through no will of his own, I certainly agree with you sir. I’ve learned through physically and emotionally painful experience that God has no intention of helping my child. I prayed til I was hoarse and knelt til my knees were raw. God was pleased to maintain his silence.

What a terrible combination of conditions to afflict your son. I hope that he is able to get the complex therapy he needs, makes some progress, and finds happiness as he is able. I am not a believer, and so of course expect nothing to result from prayer by way of divine response, but I can see how some Christian beliefs may help. The idea of each person being important, and deserving of respect is one that will lead to your son getting better care from those who try to help him. and the idea that happiness does not necessary result from success ‘in the eyes of the world’ is also important. We unbelievers don’t have much of a community, either, and I hope yours has been true to their faith and supported you. I wish you every good thing, you and your son, and I am moved and honored that you have shared this personal story with us as a result of my comments.