The Reason Why God Doesn't Intervene to Stop Evil

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It is true that God could have created you or me to be more holy, but since our holiness is primarily a result of our choices, to create someone who was both me and who chose differently than I would would be to violate my free will.
I disagree. See my previous post for my proof.
Of course, He could sidestep that by creating someone who was not me, but was similar in most respects (same parents, same personality, given the same name, reads too much, etc.) except being a lot more holy.
I would clarify this by saying that He could have created you and I with less or no concupiscence, and thus allowed us greater capability to freely choose to be and act holy.
But this person would not be me,
That’s a valid point and may be true. Honestly, I’m not sure whether I believe it to be true or not, as I still haven’t fully figured out what defines “me” as “me”.
and so we’d have the previous case of God choosing to create or not create people based on their actions.
Not necessarily. The fact that God could choose to create us with different qualities, and that those qualities would entail different actions, does not necessarily entail that God’s reason for choosing different qualities is to change our actions. That is a logical fallacy to assert causation simply because of correlation, isn’t it?
Note though that the second is only a problem if He always does this - creating a John the Baptist in addition to everyone else who will go around and fix many og the problems we made is fine
Is it? According to your own logic, isn’t God “capitulating to evil” even in such isolated cases? And wouldn’t your logic make the doctrine of Immaculate Conception a sever impingement of Mary’s Free Will?
As to how God decides who to create and who not to create - that is something that I simply don’t have an answer for, in any particularity. What mechanism He might or might not have I don’t know.
That’s fair. I don’t have the answer either. I’m still looking for it, though. 🙂
It could be that each person who He imagines, He does create
That seems problematic to me. Even I can imagine more people than actually exist, simply by imaging variations in the people who do, and thus I can always imagine more “potential people” than can actually be realized as “actualized people”. Therefore, it would seem that God (being infinitely greater than I), would be capable of imagining many more people than it would be (logically) possible for Him to create in a single universe.
… So it is possible (again, it seems possible, I cannot say that I know that it is happening) that God doesn’t “imagine” two people, and decide to create one over the other, but simply decides to create people at times and places when and where their existence will have the best result.
See previous comment.
It is true that it is always possible for the world to be better, simply by the addition of one more good person. In part, the answer is that if the world can always be better, then the thing to do is to create a world that is continually evolving towards perfection - not so much in the sense as a reachable goal, but in the same way that a function might approach infinity. (Which is actually, insofar as I understand it, what the Church says is happening.)

So in short, it could be that because God could always improve the world by creating one more good thing, that He always does so, and so the world is always improving. As for how it is now - well, something that improves has to start somewhere, and while it could be better, it will be; and it is good now.
I’m going to think more on that last bit. I don’t think it invalidates my other reasoning, but it may be a completely alternate explanation of the issue.
 
I disagree. See my previous post for my proof.

I would clarify this by saying that He could have created you and I with less or no concupiscence, and thus allowed us greater capability to freely choose to be and act holy.

That’s a valid point and may be true. Honestly, I’m not sure whether I believe it to be true or not, as I still haven’t fully figured out what defines “me” as “me”.
What makes me me is indeed not entirely simple, but my reasoning as relates to this topic is as follows: each person is associated with the collection of all things that they will ever be or do throughout their existence. This collection can be thought of the instantiation of the person into the world, and depends on their choices together with their surroundings.

In making a person more holy, God can do essentially three things: modify the surrounding factors to which the person reacts (something that it is commonly held that He does), directly change the choices we make/are capable of making (problematic with free will), change qualities about us while leaving us the same person (something that we say He does, with our cooperation and assent). Since God knows all the choices that we will make, He could also not create us, and create someone else who would freely choose better things in our place, but this would be problematic for reasons mentioned (and probably expanded upon later). Whatever makes me me, a change in me would involve a change in one of these areas - though perhaps certain changes would go too far and make me no longer me, whatever changes are possible while still being changes would fall in one of the three categories.

Changing surroundings in ways that don’t violate free will so as to optimize things is fairly uncontroversial. We also often speak of God helping us grow, so that the third happens is also uncontroversial. The second we pretty much say doesn’t happen, and the fourth I find problematic.

The question you seem to be raising here is something like “why doesn’t God create us with growth pre-done, as it were?” That is, why do we need to grow, why aren’t we made with better faculties that will help us do what is right?

I would propose a two-fold answer with a qualification. The qualification: some of our attributes are the results of our own choices (and our surroundings) and so there is a free will element involved. Of course, they aren’t all results of such, I just say this to point out that it might not be entirely simple to make such changes and maintain free will, though I accept that it is possible at least to some degree.

For the answer, there are two parts: first, even with no predisposition towards sin at all, sin is still possible. Even those with the greatest attributes can sin, and often sin worse than those with lesser gifts. Adam had no concupiscence, no inbuilt inclination to sin, but sinned anyway. Lucifer, whose name means something like “bringer of light,” was one of the greatest of angels, and fell very far indeed.

[More wild speculation warning.] For that matter, not only are greater attributes no guarantee of greater holiness, if we go back to the collection of all that we will do and decide associated with each person, and take into account that how I react in one case affects what else happens and so what else I react to, it may be that for a particular individual, if God were to freely give him (on top of his existence as a being already) greater gifts in any particular area, that these gifts would eventually lead to this person’s fall. Our existences are chaotic systems (in the technical sense that small changes in conditions at one point can result in large changes in future conditions) - we can imagine that a particular person would, if given more self control or similar, in the future succumb to pride at his holiness, which could be problematic directly, or cause him end up in situations he thinks he can handle but can’t, or any other number of things.

All of which is to say that giving us better abilities in certain areas is part of the optimization, and God is the only one who can see the results before they happen. So it could be that it is ultimately better for a person to have the abilities that he has, even if it is not better at a particular point in time. To be clear - I am not sure about this, but it seems plausible to say that while God does not hold back our growth, that He regulates when and how much to make it happen so as to help us as best is possible. But whether He does or not, the fact that less inclination to sin is not a complete guard against evil still applies.

And second, we’re back to the “things can always be better” issue. Other concerns aside, God could improve each of us as much as He likes, and we could always be better. In this way, we are on a journey of growth. We have to start somewhere, and where we are is good.
 
Iron Donkey said:
Note though that the second is only a problem if He always does this - creating a John the Baptist in addition to everyone else who will go around and fix many og the problems we made is fine.
Is it? According to your own logic, isn’t God “capitulating to evil” even in such isolated cases? And wouldn’t your logic make the doctrine of Immaculate Conception a sever impingement of Mary’s Free Will?

Rereading my original comment, I think I made it sound as though John the Baptist, and others who correct evil, were not created for their own sakes. That would be bad, and is not what I intended, though it does look like it’s what I said.

What I intended to say is that God is not creating people not for their own sakes if He makes their creation conditional upon their actions, but that creating a person who will do good things in addition to these people and then placing them so that their good things will have good effect at undoing evil is not. This good person is created for his own sake and then agrees to work with God to accomplish what needs to be done. God knows that he will do this, and so places him in the time and place where he is needed.

I do not consider this capitulating to evil. Capitulating to evil would be refraining from doing a good thing that God would otherwise do (such as refraining from creating a person, which is a good act). In this case, it is God doing more good things to make up for the harm done by evil.

The immaculate conception would not be an infringement upon Mary’s free will for more or less the reasons stated in the previous post - such things as the lack of original sin are things about Mary. Like Eve, Mary had no inclination to sin; unlike Eve, she did not choose to sin - but she still had the ability to do so. Each of the rest of us do have the inclination to sin, and we choose to sin to varying degrees, but these degrees are not directly dependent upon our inclination to sin, or our attributes such as how quick we are to anger. Again, it’s something of an optimization problem, and touches on free will (since we affect our attributes), as discussed above.
That’s fair. I don’t have the answer either. I’m still looking for it, though. 🙂
That [the creation of all God thinks of creating] seems problematic to me. Even I can imagine more people than actually exist, simply by imaging variations in the people who do, and thus I can always imagine more “potential people” than can actually be realized as “actualized people”. Therefore, it would seem that God (being infinitely greater than I), would be capable of imagining many more people than it would be (logically) possible for Him to create in a single universe.
It might be problematic. It’s total speculation of what might be conceivably possible, and I don’t even know if I consider it probable. It could be modified to “God creates everyone who He imagines creating,” which would be more probable (again, not certain), and allow that God imagines people He doesn’t create. He could then only imagine creating a finite number of people, even if He imagines an infinite number of them. Or possibly He imagines creating and creates an infinite number, if more people are created after the final judgement, which I frankly have never even thought about before now. In an infinite amount of time, even an infinite number of people can be created in sequential finite batches. (The math nerd in me wants to start considering different infinite cardinalities of people at this point, but I’ll try to refrain from that tangent.)

My main point here is that there is so much that is unknown that we could almost just pick certain potential facts at random and come up with plans for creation which are consistent with what we know. Not necessarily because such plans are all reasonable, but because we don’t know much. I can give a plausibleish sounding explanation for how God makes such choices, and it could easily be completely wrong.

But much in the same way that the ancients saw lightning, had no idea what it was, and made up a thousand plausible sounding (to them) explanations that were mostly entirely wrong, and which they may or may not have actually believed very much, this type of void in our understanding is not so much evidence against the thing itself (we’ve seen the lightning), but evidence of our lack of understanding.
[Improving world thing.]
I’m going to think more on that last bit. I don’t think it invalidates my other reasoning, but it may be a completely alternate explanation of the issue.
It’s worth thinking about. If nothing else, trying to imagine the totality of everything and where its heading and why is a very good way to get both a) a sense of awe and wonder, and b) a headache. But in a good way.
 
You already alluded to some of the evidence.

Evidence:

  1. *]Each of the (unfallen) Angels has Free Will and never sinned.
    *]Each Human in heaven has Free Will and will never (again) sin.
    *]Each Human in purgatory has Free Will and will never (again) sin.
    *]Mary never sinned in her entire created life from the moment of her conception.
    *](I’ve heard it said) John the Baptist never sinned from the moment he leapt in his mother’s womb (and presumably was incapable of sin prior to that point due to incompetence).
    *]Scripture and Tradition both tell us that the Original Sin of Adam and Eve was not inevitable, and thus it was apparently possible for them to have never sinned.

    Proof:

    1. *]According to reason, we can conclude that anything that is not logically impossible would be possible to an omnipotent being.
      *]If it is possible for any individual creature with Free Will to never sin, then that proves that it is possible for God to create Free creatures that do not ever exercise their Free capacity to actualize sin.
      *]If even one of the assertions in the list above is true, it would seem adequate proof that God has the ability to create creatures that have/retain Free Will yet who will never (or at least never again after a certain point) actually commit any sin.
      *]According to my understanding of scripture and Church teaching, I understand that all of the above-listed assertions/evidence are true.
      *]Therefore, God has the ability to create many creatures that have/retain Free Will yet who will never actually commit any sin.

      Is there a flaw in my logic?

    1. To completely un-exercise the capacity for sin you are not making a choice, in every moral choice the acknowledgement of the capacity for sin is active and understood, so it is being active in your choice. This activity does not mean you are sinning, but that you have a real, existing potential to sin.
      Adam, as long as he co-operated with sanctifying grace could not sin, but because of free will he had the choice of not co-operating. And because he was fallible, not infallible, he sinned. Even with grace we can still make a choice to sin. Man without the grace of God, left to himself inevitably will sin, Mary even though conceived without original sin could still have refused to co-operate with God’s grace, but she choose to co-operate. Did she ever acknowledge that she had an active capacity to sin, a real potential to sin? "My spirit hath rejoiced in God, my Savior, because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid… why call God her Savior? Even angels acknowledge their capacity to sin, it is active, and self-evident in their choice. My use of active capacity is to be undestood as existing potential
 
Evidence:
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Justin_W:
*]Scripture and Tradition both tell us that the Original Sin of Adam and Eve was not
inevitable, and thus it was apparently possible for them to have never sinned.
 
I messed up posting, sorry.

Answer to above post:
At the same time the possibility to sin became a reality. Why, if not because man’s nature is fallible, not infallible. God can not create an infallible man. Infallibility means not capable of making and error, or being wrong. Only and Omniscient God is infallible. Man left to himself, especially in our present world is weak-willed (express clearly by St.Paul)
His mind is darkened by ignorance, and he is plagued by concupiscence as a consequence of Original Sin and in the state will surely sin. To create an infallible man is to say that God can contradict Himself, to do the impossible. It is necessary for Jesus to redeem man in his fallen state, as he can not redeem himself. Adam’s sin was not inevitable because he could have co-operated with God’s grace, but because he was fallible and didn’t.
 
We do not live in a world good versus evil (which would be heresy), but good and evil. If God were to eliminate evil, our world could not sustain itself. Only during the Second Coming will evil be eliminated.
So, when the second coming happens, our free will, will be halted?
 
No. I’m not sure how you’re reading post, but free will will still be intact, I think.
OK, so if God has not intervened to stop any evils in our world in a supernatural manner, when he comes again, this will mean those who wish to continue committing evil acts will still be able to? Seems to me any action of God to stop this would be infringing on our free will, even at the time of the second coming.
 
OK, so if God has not intervened to stop any evils in our world in a supernatural manner, when he comes again, this will mean those who wish to continue committing evil acts will still be able to? Seems to me any action of God to stop this would be infringing on our free will, even at the time of the second coming.
There is no need to infringe on our free will because there are strict limits to its scope. No one can rival God’s knowledge and wisdom.
 
I messed up posting, sorry.

Answer to above post:
At the same time the possibility to sin became a reality. Why, if not because man’s nature is fallible, not infallible. God can not create an infallible man. Infallibility means not capable of making and error, or being wrong. Only and Omniscient God is infallible. Man left to himself, especially in our present world is weak-willed (express clearly by St.Paul)
His mind is darkened by ignorance, and he is plagued by concupiscence as a consequence of Original Sin and in the state will surely sin. To create an infallible man is to say that God can contradict Himself, to do the impossible. It is necessary for Jesus to redeem man in his fallen state, as he can not redeem himself. Adam’s sin was not inevitable because he could have co-operated with God’s grace, but because he was fallible and didn’t.
👍 Jesus said “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” It is therefore possible for us to be perfect now that we have been redeemed but it is still only relative perfection because only God is perfect in every respect. We are also subject to temptation because we are not isolated individuals but members of a community who are deeply affected by the way others behave. Since God takes this into account we have good reason to believe no one is beyond redemption - which means He intervenes to prevent evil far more than we realise.
 
The potential-victim of the isolated case of potentially-preventable evil might disagree with you. That is one of the key parts of the problem as perceived by many people (non-believers and believers alike).
It doesn’t matter if they disagree or not; what matters is whether or not the solution works according to God’s definitions. And, if we take the parable of the tares/wheat at face value, it appears that it does.
For example, why not create everyone to be as holy and moral as Mary and John the Baptist? I’m not suggesting He should, I’m just wondering why doing so would be a “capitulation to evil”? I’ve been pondering this very issue a lot lately.
Regarding your thoughts, I don’t think it would be a capitulation to evil at all. I think God could have created a possible world where Adam/Eve never eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil. I think God could also have created a possible world where the significant majority of people freely choose to obey his commands. Why he didn’t is a mystery.
 
To the OP, I don’t think I agree with your reading. For one thing, God does intervene to prevent evil or correct it all the time, in ways both minor and major. (Many of the corrections are easy to see, and range from stopping a wedding from running out of wine, to healing the sick, to raising the dead, to triumphing over the disaster that was original sin. Prevention is harder to notice, since noticing would require us to know what could have happened but didn’t and why.)
You don’t know at all that God intervenes to prevent evil or corrects it all the time. The examples you gave were all from the life of Christ and you’ll notice he only intervened in those isolated cases - why didn’t he intervene in all cases? For example, why not heal blindness itself instead of just one blind man?

But this is beside the point. The point is that the master ordered the servants not to remove the tares because doing so would harm the wheat. In other words, the intervention would somehow harm the elect. What about this reading is incorrect?
 
I believe I’ve figured out the reason why God doesn’t intervene to stop evil, and I believe it’s hidden in one of the parables of Christ:

“24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven [m]may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed [n]tares among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the [o]wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? [p]How then does it have tares?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘An [q]enemy has done this!’ **The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”” Mt. 13:24-30 (NASB)

We all know what this parable is about, and it needs no interpretation (for those that don’t know, the interpretation is in Mt. 13:36-43). Anyways, the important part for our purposes is vv.28b-29, where the servants (angels) want to intervene to stop the evildoers but the landowner (God/Christ) prevents them. He prevents them due to the fact that their intervention may harm the wheat. What this means is simple: God doesn’t intervene to stop evil because in doing so he knows that he’ll somehow harm the interests of the elect. Once the interests of the elect are secure, God will intervene to stop evil (see the book of Revelation).

Thoughts?
Good Evening Achilles6129: Who are “The Elect”?

All the best,
Gary
 
Good Evening Achilles6129: Who are “The Elect”?

All the best,
Gary
The answer will require a deep understanding of the action of God, and the actions of man. The elect are those predestined by God to eternal life, If one says "predestination sounds like no matter what I do I will have eternal life in the end, this is not the case. If it were, then why do I have free will if it dosen’t matter what I do?

Election as the fruit of God’s love is gratuitous (freely given), as is predestination to eternal life. But in order to love a creature with preference (predilection), God must first know the elect, and so a certain foreknowledge must precede the “fore-love” or election. There are two schools of thought as to the cause of this choice. Thomists depend exclusively on the Goodness of God who communicates Himself to whom He wishes. The other school of thought insists prevision, of foresight of the elect’s merits must, in addition to the divine goodness be a contributory factor in God’s choice (Molinist’s view). In any system the distinction of elect and non-elect remains a deep mystery, St. Augustine recognized this long ago. God can without interfering with the choice, or the will of man cause one to co-operate with His graces. It is definite that man’s merits, are involved as well as God’s preferences.
 
The answer will require a deep understanding of the action of God, and the actions of man. The elect are those predestined by God to eternal life, If one says "predestination sounds like no matter what I do I will have eternal life in the end, this is not the case. If it were, then why do I have free will if it dosen’t matter what I do?

Election as the fruit of God’s love is gratuitous (freely given), as is predestination to eternal life. But in order to love a creature with preference (predilection), God must first know the elect, and so a certain foreknowledge must precede the “fore-love” or election. There are two schools of thought as to the cause of this choice. Thomists depend exclusively on the Goodness of God who communicates Himself to whom He wishes. The other school of thought insists prevision, of foresight of the elect’s merits must, in addition to the divine goodness be a contributory factor in God’s choice (Molinist’s view). In any system the distinction of elect and non-elect remains a deep mystery, St. Augustine recognized this long ago. God can without interfering with the choice, or the will of man cause one to co-operate with His graces. It is definite that man’s merits, are involved as well as God’s preferences.
If God’s preferences are involved, free will is nullified. God must be hands off for free will to exist…there is no mystery to that. The mystery comes when men invent things like the elect and predestination and then try to justify it.

John
 
If God’s preferences are involved, free will is nullified. God must be hands off for free will to exist…there is no mystery to that. The mystery comes when men invent things like the elect and predestination and then try to justify it.

John
The general meaning of predestination is to prearrange in view of an end. In a theological sense it is the order or plan conceived by God to bring the rational creature to it’s supernatural end, which is life eternal. St.Paul speaks of it most insistently (Rom 8, Eph l
Indicating a plan of God, which envisages as a whole the Christian salvation of mankind to be effected through grace and the heavenly gifts, human co-operation, not being excluded.` No one is damned without his own guilt. Christian doctrine insists on two things a) to be saved we must co-operate with grace; b) no one is damned unless it be through his own fault (Council of Orange, Council of Kiersy, C.of Trent)

To say where God’s preference is involved that free will is nullified, is to say God is limited by man’s free will, that He can not affect man’s will without violating it, and is to judge God’s Omnipotence. This is trying to restrict God’s power, and abilities to the finite mind of man.
 
The general meaning of predestination is to prearrange in view of an end. In a theological sense it is the order or plan conceived by God to bring the rational creature to it’s supernatural end, which is life eternal. St.Paul speaks of it most insistently (Rom 8, Eph l
Indicating a plan of God, which envisages as a whole the Christian salvation of mankind to be effected through grace and the heavenly gifts, human co-operation, not being excluded.` No one is damned without his own guilt. Christian doctrine insists on two things a) to be saved we must co-operate with grace; b) no one is damned unless it be through his own fault (Council of Orange, Council of Kiersy, C.of Trent)

To say where God’s preference is involved that free will is nullified, is to say God is limited by man’s free will, that He can not affect man’s will without violating it, and is to judge God’s Omnipotence. This is trying to restrict God’s power, and abilities to the finite mind of man.
God’s plan? There alone excludes free will of man. The rest of what you write is a circular argument. If God has an absolute plan…etc. , etc., councils and so on. Logic says that a deity who creates with absolute foreknowledge and immutable preordination of all future events, cannot allow for free will.
Just look at the Catholic Encyclopedia under predestination…it’s all there. Then see if the explanation makes any sense. BTW, they end up with that term “mystery.”
 
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