The reasons why we exist?

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Make no mistake, if the U.S. could obliterate the rest of the world with no harm to itself, it would do so without a second thought.
That appears to you to be a self-evident proposition? Why?

If you can prove it, how would you do so?

You know, of course, that the current occupant of the White House is the only person to make such a decision on his own authority. Why do you think he would do so without a second thought if he thought there would be no retaliation? :confused:
 
Well, “we” don’t control the use of nuclear weapons–government officials do. The only thing holding them back is the possibility of retaliation or the loss of foreign trade.

Make no mistake, if the U.S. could obliterate the rest of the world with no harm to itself, it would do so without a second thought.
If we did that, we would cut off our nose to spite our face. International trade and a healthy world banking system is necessary for our well being. Gone are the days of total self sufficiency. We need markets for our products and we need raw materials and manufactured goods that we do not make. We also need foreign buyers of our government bonds. Why would we be so stupid as to eliminate all that?
 
That appears to you to be a self-evident proposition? Why?

If you can prove it, how would you do so?
I can’t prove it. But I think it’s naïve to regard countries as charitable or otherwise generous entities. Remember that the U.S. only fought in WWII when it realized that the outcome of the war would affect America as well.
If we did that, we would cut off our nose to spite our face. International trade and a healthy world banking system is necessary for our well being.
I don’t type things just because I like to hear myself talk. If you read what I wrote more carefully, I specified that the U.S. would only do so if it brought no harm upon itself. I even mentioned in the same post that one of the reasons the U.S doesn’t eliminate its rivals is because of foreign trade.
 
I can’t prove it. But I think it’s naïve to regard countries as charitable or otherwise generous entities. Remember that the U.S. only fought in WWII when it realized that the outcome of the war would affect America as well.
I don’t know the extent of foreign aid in the 1930’s, but I have a hunch that it was almost non-existent. One may think of foreign aid as charitable contributions, and of course our foreign aid today is humongous.

We entered the war not because of our realization of the outcome but because we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. They almost eliminated our Navy! They started the war, not us. One of the reasons we were so long in entering WWII was the Great Depression. We were broke, and so were the British and French. The Japanese were already threatening the Philippines (a United States possession) when they took over French Indo China in 1940, and so taking measures to discourage them such as blockades and embargoes made sense. Since the Philippines was ripe for the plucking, the Japanese would probably have attacked us even if there were no embargoes.
I don’t type things just because I like to hear myself talk. If you read what I wrote more carefully, I specified that the U.S. would only do so if it brought no harm upon itself. I even mentioned in the same post that one of the reasons the U.S doesn’t eliminate its rivals is because of foreign trade
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I don’t know why we would annihilate any friendly country even if no harm came to us… What good would that do? It would be expensive and a waste of taxpayers money.
 
Well, “we” don’t control the use of nuclear weapons–government officials do. The only thing holding them back is the possibility of retaliation or the loss of foreign trade.

Make no mistake, if the U.S. could obliterate the rest of the world with no harm to itself, it would do so without a second thought.
We agree that animals have a right to life but you seem to think the U.S. doesn’t believe the rest of the world has any rights at all!
 
Yes, we have come very far, and are very nearly capable of annihilating our species along with most others. We could never have done that until the advent of the atomic age. The only thing that holds us back is not science, but love of God and each other thrown in with some common sense.
👍 Love doesn’t exist as far as science is concerned!
 
👍 Love doesn’t exist as far as science is concerned!
You mean that emotions don’t exist in science? How come economists, psychologists, anthropologists, sociologists all study fear? How come biologists study it when they do their behavior of animals research?
 
You mean that emotions don’t exist in science? How come economists, psychologists, anthropologists, sociologists all study fear? How come biologists study it when they do their behavior of animals research?
I suspect that fear becomes the subject of these sciences because it is so often evidence of illness of the psyche or the desire of some to instill fear in others for the sake of controlling them. That is what science is all about … control of the world around us. And that is why science is so little interested in love, because love is not control. It is the setting free of the spirit and the desire to do good unto others as you would have them do good unto you. Certainly the inventors of atomic weapons were not thinking of that maxim when they set about their work.
 
We agree that animals have a right to life but you seem to think the U.S. doesn’t believe the rest of the world has any rights at all!
When I say “U.S.”, I am referring to the political entity, not the citizens. Countries don’t care about human lives any more than corporations do. They only care to the extent that it benefits them, and any rival who fails to serve their ends will be squashed.

What do you all think these recent conflicts have been about? Don’t tell me you believe in this “spreading democracy” bogus? I can’t think of a single war in history that wasn’t fought for economic reasons.
 
When I say “U.S.”, I am referring to the political entity, not the citizens. Countries don’t care about human lives any more than corporations do. They only care to the extent that it benefits them, and any rival who fails to serve their ends will be squashed.
Neither countries nor corporations care about anything because they are collectives, not real people who do care.

There are many real people in the world who do not think as you seem to think they would think. They sacrifice themselves daily for others. The Peace Corps was instituted for that reason, real people sering other real people. Many real Americans went to Europe to die or be maimed fighting against Nazism and Fascism because they did not believe in tyranny, not because they wanted to “squash” Germans and Italians. Had Hitler and Hirohito had their way, we might all today be as godless and miserable as the present denizens of North Korea.

Cynicism may be fitting in some contexts. In the context in which you speak it is over the top.
 
Many real Americans went to Europe to die or be maimed fighting against Nazism and Fascism because they did not believe in tyranny, not because they wanted to “squash” Germans and Italians.
But why do you think the Germans initiated WWII in the first place? Again, it was for economic reasons. So as I said, the war was motivated by economics, not morality.

Sure, Hitler tried to make it sound like it was all about creating some sort of utopia with a perfect Aryan race, but we know that was a lie. If we are to take Hitler’s word for it when he attempted to justify his actions, then we would have to believe that he was a devout Christian.
 
But why do you think the Germans initiated WWII in the first place? Again, it was for economic reasons. So as I said, the war was motivated by economics, not morality.

Sure, Hitler tried to make it sound like it was all about creating some sort of utopia with a perfect Aryan race, but we know that was a lie. If we are to take Hitler’s word for it when he attempted to justify his actions, then we would have to believe that he was a devout Christian.
You’ve just made my case. It was Hitler, not the country of Germany, who dragged the world into a universal holocaust. There were many Germans who opposed Hitler, just not enough to stop him. The people who stopped him (Americans included) were not the people who went to war with Germany for economic gain, but to stop his insane attempt at world conquest. If we had gone to war with Germany for economic gain only, we would have crushed Germany as a world power. Instead, we did what we could to help Germany get restored to its riughtful plafce among the world powers, and it was finally by Reagan telling Gorbachov to take down the Berlin Wall that Germany was finally re-united and is now more prosperous than most European nations and very much and ally of the U.S.
 
You’ve just made my case. It was Hitler, not the country of Germany, who dragged the world into a universal holocaust.
I would agree with that. I suppose I shouldn’t have referred to countries, as that’s ambiguous. As I said before, I was not referring to the citizenry of these countries, but rather the powers that be–the people who have the power to make things happen.

I didn’t want to just call them “government officials”, because there are others who have nearly as much control of a country, such as CEOs. But anyway, it appears that our disagreement is just semantical. You would agree that wars start for economic reasons, and the other participants are just engaging in self-defense?
 
But why do you think the Germans initiated WWII in the first place? Again, it was for economic reasons. So as I said, the war was motivated by economics, not morality.

Sure, Hitler tried to make it sound like it was all about creating some sort of utopia with a perfect Aryan race, but we know that was a lie. If we are to take Hitler’s word for it when he attempted to justify his actions, then we would have to believe that he was a devout Christian.
I think that, just as individuals can be motivated by their ideals-- including ideals that most of us would find abhorrent, such as the ideal of a racially pure society – so too can the leaders of nations have idealistic considerations that override sheerly pragmatic ones (i.e., true fanatics do exist). The expulsion of the Jews from Spain, for example, is believed to have been driven largely by an ideology of maintaining a purity of the faith – and, by some accounts, the expulsion of the Jews from Spain proved to be economically disastrous.

My impression is that historians often over-ascribe pragmatic motivations to the decisions of world leaders when, in fact, genuine idealists do exist (again, I use “idealist” in a morally neutral sense of the word; the Ayatalloh Khomeini would be another idealist or, if you prefer, “fanatic” or “ideologue”; such individuals are indeed dangerous, because an appeal to common sense may not sway them). Everything I’ve read about Hitler leads me to believe that he actually believed in the ideology he was espousing, just as he actually did draw inspiration from the operas of Wagner (Lohengrin, for example), which made him seem quixotic in the eyes of his associates (they suffered through many a performance). He had a “dream”, a “vision” he was following, whereby economic or pragmatic considerations often fell by the wayside (case in point – the Jews contributed greatly to the wealth and economic flourishing of German society; Jewish brain power, such as that of an Albert Einstein, denounced as “Jewish science”, was also significant; but what was Germany’s loss, was America’s gain. Germany cut off its nose to spite its face, triggering a “brain drain” that played directly to the advantage of a more pragmatic America).
 
You would agree that wars start for economic reasons, and the other participants are just engaging in self-defense?
Most wars do start for economic reasons.

What I really objected to was the following remark.

“Make no mistake, if the U.S. could obliterate the rest of the world with no harm to itself, it would do so without a second thought.”

I just don’t believe that is so. The United States shares some blame in some of the wars it has undertaken, but I think it is over the top cynical to assert that the U.S. is capable of the callous devilry you describe, without a second thought obliterating the rest of the world with no harm to itself. How does that advance the economic interests of the United States? It might be the goal of a maniac, but fortunately this nation is not ruled by many more maniacs than good men and women who are not insane …
 
Yes: how would a person arrive at the answer is interesting (with a condition to still be happy no matter what) /that of values or truth and justice/when science must measure something before it can be recognized to exist, so to speak, earning a weight; while a value cannot be weighed: …perhaps only in the winning over a threat of malice, that causes pain and misery and grief…can there be the best personal understanding of truth (add to that a cognition of mercy)-the momentum of existence could be measured by mercy -your struggles and the good fight some how arrives and putting a level of importance of what you value-the conquering of sin, salvation of the soul measured from repentance from the heart…a work of good clashing with Satan, a divine plan clashing with the devil’s plan- then acting in struggle, that begins deep inside where there are origins of a struggle of dark and light- to act in grace and in the wishes of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. thx patrick
 
If we are to take Hitler’s word for it when he attempted to justify his actions, then we would have to believe that he was a devout Christian.
Well, altogether too many people discovered, to their horror, that Hitler was not only not a devout Christian, but the devil himself. :eek:
 
Most wars do start for economic reasons.

.
The American Civil War was fought for a number of reasons.
  1. Slavery
  2. Political Power in Washington: When free states began to outnumber slave states, the South attacked Fort Sumter.
  3. The North had a number of abolitionist organizations that were agitating in the South.
The Spanish American War was started to avenge the sinking of the USS Maine.

World War I was started to avenge the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria/Hungary. A system of alliances between Russia, France, United Kingdom, and Belgium was placed in opposition to the Germany/Austria-Hungary alliance and the motivation was not economic.

The Spanish Civil War was a power struggle among the various political groups.

World War II in Europe was started by Adolf Hitler because he wanted to build an empire for Germans. Germany was economically well off in 1939, but Hitler was an ambitious man and wanted greater things for Germany than just economic comfort. Mussolini was also ambitious and dreamed of a new Roman Empire. In both cases, after having witnessed the building of the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Ottoman and American empires, they both had the urge to establish “Places in the Sun” for their own countries. They had inferiority complexes. So did Kaiser Wilhelm.

As for the Japanese, economics seems to have been the primary impetus. Their solution was to build their own empire.
 
How does one avoid dirtying one’s own nest?

The vast majority of Earth’s humanity barely eke out a living. This has been the case for thousands of years. The fact that some of us are able to escape abject poverty is progress of a sort. However, in doing this, we have degraded Earth. Climate warming, pollution of oceans, soil erosion, etc. are the result. Is this progress?
To an extent some dirtying is inevitable, but you keep working to limit the damage that we cause in order to support our species. I do see that as progress, although I would definitely like to see a great deal more.

I believe that each of us exist out of a pure act of nature. I think that the answers I was taught in my youth were an attempt to give us a sort of importance that we really don’t deserve. This is understandable, few people I have ever known want to face the harsh realities…and that’s okay. I’ve just come to a stage in my life where the evidence all around me shows me that we as a species are on our own and always have been.

There is a great deal of peace in that for me. It probably wouldn’t work for everybody.
 
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