Again, it is different to say that you would not worship a God who allows suffering for no reason.
I agree and would never worship a god who did this either.
However, are these not your words, oldcelt? (bold mine)
From the above statement I gather that your argument is this: no loving God would allow suffering, therefore I believe that God is not in control of events that humans endure.
That is an incoherent position. How does the fact that God allows suffering necessarily mean that God is not in control?
As you said: God could be a masochist, and therefore not worthy of worship.
Yet you seem to disregard the above possibility.
Why is it not part of your worldview that God could be a masochist? How do you reject this possibility?
As a Catholic I reject it because I know, just from my own experiences as a loving parent, that God could indeed have a very good reason for permitting pain and suffering.
What’s your reason for rejecting the possibility that God could be a masochist?
I think that we are quibbling over slight differences in writing. If that is my fault, I apologize and will write this next with great care to attempt assuage the confusion
I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic faith by generally well intentioned people. My parents were exceptional and both devout Catholics. We attended Sunday Mass as a family, but on the rare occasion that our parents were elsewhere we were forced to sit in the outer aisles because we did not attend the Catholic Schools. This was just one of the ways that we were reminded that we were somehow inferior,
Rather than let that stop me I decided, at age 7, to look up the issue. When I was satisfied that no Catholic teaching would permit such segregation I asked the Monsignor for an audience to discuss this. He said he was unaware of the practice and it ended…case closed.
Things moved along nicely for many years. I received all the sacraments to which I was entitled and even briefly considered the priesthood. On a sidenote…what ever became of the blessing of the throat on what I believe was Saint Blaze (sp)? When I reached my teen years I became involved in the use of drugs beginning with sedative, the mixing them with alcohol and so on. Remarkably, my ability to function in college remained unaffected for a few years, but the inevitable came. All through threw this, my faith began to wither for lack of effort on my part. School Evangelicals were constantly trying to convert me, but I felt that I was a Catholic. After slashing my wrists just to show I’d do it, the campus nurse, a devout Catholic and good friend asked me to commit myself for drug treatment. I spent 8 days in detox, signed myself out and went back to school. I finished and went off to real life.
By this time I was 23 years old and looking to go into politics, but my own colorful past, combined with the general bad will in politics drove me away. I finally quit all drugs and alcohol, was married (civilly) and contented myself with jobs that I really hated. All the while I continued studying history. After 8 year of marriage I was divorced. The marriage was childless.
It was at this point, age 33, that I became serious about my faith. With the help of my sister I devoured everything I could on Catholicism. One particular Benedictan brother served me as a mentor, teacher, adversary and I really felt that I was there.
Then I began thinking in great detail about what I had been taught for almost 45 year, I thought, particularly, about the nature of God. I had been told that He was all-knowing, all-powerful, present everywhere at all times, and all loving. I was also taught that he would intervene in the affairs of man if the faithful sent up their voices about a particular need.
Looking around the world near and far, it was apparent that things were not matching up. I consulted the catechism until it was worn, looking for some explanation. I went to the good father The only answer I received was that these contradictions were among the mysteries of the Almighty and that I would just have to rely on faith
At the advice of my sister I even read “Dark Night of the Soul” by Saint John of the Cross. My Mass attendance increased in the hope of receiving a personal revelation that would dispel these human doubts and allow me to move forward. Nothing came.
Now about 47 I was forced to conclude that God of my birth, youth, adulthood did not exist. Strangely, a few year prior, my dear mother reached a similar conclusion, but for different reasons.
Since I still believed that some force began creation I looked for that God…that belief system. I came upon Deism while doing some reading on Benjamin Franklin. Although there is no consensus, the basics are that God started creation and let it do what it will. I continues to this day and God has moved on to other things.No one I have ever read pretends to know why.
God does not answer prayers, he does not know us individually, there is no plan for earth or us, no evil except that we create. we were born, we will live, we will die. An afterlife is possible, but uncertain…all we have is each other and our wits.
That’s it, all in proper order, take it for what it is…one man’s journey. I still have great respect for most of the Church and bear it no ill will…or any of its members. Truly, I hope that one day we meet in the afterlife and ask why we spent so much time debating.
John
And in Heaven!
It would be proof of indifference *by human standards * (the 5-year-old analogy). In fact, the free will argument, used to respond to the problem of evil, could support God’s complete non-intervention no less than it is used to support God’s occasional, or frequent, non-intervention.