The reasons why we exist?

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I still have not found a coherent response from any deist as to why they reject the possibility that God exists and that he purposely inflicts pain and suffering upon creation.".
As I understand it, Deists give some form of honor, reverence, and thankfulness towards God, which does indeed imply that they view God as either well-disposed towards human beings, or else not ill-disposed towards human beings.

Some of the roots of Deism, as I understand it, are in Aristotle and Epicurus; the latter believed that the gods existed in a state of perfect happiness and “unperturbability.” This was not believed to be compatible with emotions such as hatred or jealousy or rancor. This is one historical (though, admittedly, not strictly logical) reason why Deists don’t believe that God is actively hostile towards humanity or means humanity ill; Aristotle or Aquinas would have agreed with Aquinas that this would have been a form of imperfection, whereas God is perfect (it’s also, rightly or wrongly, why some of them had problems with the God of the Old Testament, who had destroyed the world through Flood, or who razed Sodom and Gomorrah, or who willed the death of all Egyptian first-born). When Epicurus said the gods don’t intervene, it was a statement that actually had a very positive feeling tone to it, since popular religion at that time was preoccupied with asking the gods to curse their enemies (he wrote, at one point, “if the gods intervened in human affairs and listened to our prayers we would not be here, since human beings are constantly wishing ill upon each other”).

I do find a Deist’s position plausible insofar as they already believe that God doesn’t intervene in human affairs (whether they are right or wrong about this is a separate issue). The non-intervention of God would seem more plausibly compatible with either A. a God who is indifferent or B. a God who is loving and beneficient, but has sufficient reason not to intervene.

But I think you’re right that we may be projecting human sensibilities onto the Godhead. Normally, we associate non-intervention with indifference or a relatively weak form of anti-pathy (not lifting a finger to help). If the antagonism is active, strong, we associate it with not only refraining from helping, but actively harming. But if God doesn’t intervene – which they believe – then God is not “actively” harming, at least in human terms; which suggests a God who is either benevolently well-disposed towards human beings, or at least non-malevolently indifferent.

I think you’re also right that there is something about the human psyche that resists believing that God is evil. There’s a line in King Lear which goes, “as flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods – they kill us for their sport” but this is a line tending more towards atheism or agnosticism (for how could such a God exist?)

Call it a human intuition, perhaps – the God concept doesn’t make sense to us if God is not good or, at least, not bad (not cruel).

But no, they can’t prove God is good, unless they accept Aquinas’ arguments that God is good – the source of all goodness;., yet remain unconvinced that God has intervened in human affairs (in terms of answering prayers and the like)… In that case, they need simply posit that God has reasons for not intervening, and that we cannot judge God on this point, with our limited human minds.
 
As I understand it, Deists give some form of honor, reverence, and thankfulness towards God, which does indeed imply that they view God as either well-disposed towards human beings, or else not ill-disposed towards human beings.
Indeed.

And what reason do they give for rejecting the possibility of a sadistic god?
But I think you’re right that we may be projecting human sensibilities onto the Godhead.
Yep.
There’s a line in King Lear which goes, “as flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods – they kill us for their sport” but this is a line tending more towards atheism or agnosticism (for how could such a God exist?)
And this, I don’t understand.

How does one conclude “for how could such a God exist” that kills for sport?

Why couldn’t such a god exist??? :confused:

From whence comes this conclusion by the atheist, save for the fact that he doesn’t like it, should a god exist like that/
Call it a human intuition, perhaps – the God concept doesn’t make sense to us if God is not good or, at least, not bad (not cruel).
Again, this defies reason.

Of course such a god could exist!

Atheism seems to be quite illogical in this proposition.
 
Indeed.

And what reason do they give for rejecting the possibility of a sadistic god?
Could they not simply adopt the arguments of Aquinas, that God is good? Logically speaking, one can accept Aquinas Five Ways – as well as his arguments that God is good – without believing that God intervenes in human affairs.

Again, to believe that God intervenes in human affairs is an empirical statement. Knowing that God is good, one cannot predict that God will intervene in human affairs (in terms of answering prayers, for example). God could have sufficient reasons for not intervening, that the human mind cannot well-understand (therefore, the human mind cannot judge God for not intervening).
 
Could they not simply adopt the arguments of Aquinas, that God is good? Logically speaking, one can accept Aquinas Five Ways – as well as his arguments that God is good – without believing that God intervenes in human affairs.
I’ve not seen Aquinas’ arguments that God is good, only his 5 ways for the existence of God.

Could you please direct me?
 
Just as weather forecasters can tell that a storm is coming and how intense it will be, they cannot spell out the details.

The “Big One” in California is going to happen. That is 99% certain.
Hurricanes are going to happen in the East and Southeast of the U.S… That is certain.
Multiple tornadoes are going to happen next year in the South and Midwest of the U.S. That is certain.

Does that mean that these prognostications are worthless.
I am referring to the details of specific individuals who are unscathed, injured and killed in a natural disaster.
 
Indeed.

And why stop at “tragedies”? What about just the little things such as preventing someone from cheating at black jack? Or preventing someone from lying to her spouse? Or even stopping someone from stubbing her toe?

In the Deist worldview, in which one rejects a God who intervenes because God doesn’t prevent tragedies, why not ponder why God doesn’t stop me from having this nagging hangnail?
The implicit demand for a paradise on earth is rather unrealistic. The blessings are taken for granted while the tragedies are seized upon to reach a preconceived conclusion. 😉
 
The implicit demand for a paradise on earth is rather unrealistic. The blessings are taken for granted while the tragedies are seized upon to reach a preconceived conclusion. 😉
Deists are quite realistic and know that there can be no paradise on Earth. We understand and accept that God does not interfere in the affairs of mankind and that tragedies are either natural or man-made.
 
Deists are quite realistic and know that there can be no paradise on Earth.
I don’t think you’re realistic at all, oldcelt.

If you were truly realistic you would consider the fact that God could be a sado-masochist who enjoys inflicting pain upon creation.

That would be the reason alone (and, I might add, the Catholic) approach–to consider all possibilities. Not just the ones that appeal to our own personal tastes.
 
Deists are quite realistic and know that there can be no paradise on Earth. We understand and accept that God does not interfere in the affairs of mankind and that tragedies are either natural or man-made.
I don’t think it’s realistic to believe God created us and takes no further interest in us for the rest of eternity. Why bother giving us life at all in the first place? It seems more coherent not to believe in God than water down the teaching of Jesus that we have a loving Father who has given us the capacity for love - which is otherwise inexplicable.

Deism implies that we are superior to God in our power of self-control and compassion for others!
 
I don’t think it’s realistic to believe God created us and takes no further interest in us for the rest of eternity. Why bother giving us life at all in the first place? It seems more coherent not to believe in God than water down the teaching of Jesus that we have a loving Father who has given us the capacity for love - which is otherwise inexplicable.

Deism implies that we are superior to God in our power of self-control and compassion for others!
It’s known as free will.
 
I don’t think it’s realistic to believe God created us and takes no further interest in us for the rest of eternity. Why bother giving us life at all in the first place? It seems more coherent not to believe in God than water down the teaching of Jesus that we have a loving Father who has given us the capacity for love - which is otherwise inexplicable.

Deism implies that we are superior to God in our power of self-control and compassion for others!
Deists do not believe that God created or creates human beings. We take that for what it is, a simple and common biological act. Divine intervention is not needed for people to fall in love or to express love to others. Again, that is just part of being human.

Deism does not water down the teachings of Jesus. Many Deists respect and even follow his teachings but reject the miracles and the divinity aspect. The basics of our existence here do not need to be complicated. Like all life on earth and the vast majority of the universe we developed over eons of time.
 
Deists do not believe that God created or creates human beings. We take that for what it is, a simple and common biological act. Divine intervention is not needed for people to fall in love or to express love to others. Again, that is just part of being human.

Deism does not water down the teachings of Jesus. Many Deists respect and even follow his teachings but reject the miracles and the divinity aspect. The basics of our existence here do not need to be complicated. Like all life on earth and the vast majority of the universe we developed over eons of time.
In other words there is nothing to distinguish deists from materialists in daily life. It is a theory with no practical consequences - which is to be expected in a secular society.

How can unselfish love for persons we have never met be a simple and common biological act? Is being human no more than an advanced animal phenomenon?
 
Deists do not believe that God created or creates human beings. We take that for what it is, a simple and common biological act. Divine intervention is not needed for people to fall in love or to express love to others. Again, that is just part of being human.

Deism does not water down the teachings of Jesus. Many Deists respect and even follow his teachings but reject the miracles and the divinity aspect. The basics of our existence here do not need to be complicated. Like all life on earth and the vast majority of the universe we developed over eons of time.
Wow. Love is NOT a biological act. It comes from a source and that source is ONLY GOD.

Don’t try to reason on that. Mystery makes it more true.
 
Wow. Love is NOT a biological act. It comes from a source and that source is ONLY GOD.

Don’t try to reason on that. Mystery makes it more true.
Creating human beings is a biological act, love is an emotional state. The two can function together or separately.
 
Wow. Love is NOT a biological act. It comes from a source and that source is ONLY GOD.

Don’t try to reason on that. Mystery makes it more true.
Wolves naturally are suspicious of potential threats. So are many domestic dogs who are bred to be watchdogs. Some animals that are naturally skittish do so for defensive reasons. It is a quality that keeps species from being exterminated by predators. Many humans get into trouble because they have difficulty in recognizing predatory activity such as that practiced by scam artists and aggressive salesmen. Love can only be felt and expressed once defenses have been lowered.

I am unaware of love being a significant emotion between strangers and animals outside of the clan or pride. That is true of tribal societies, and was a significant element in the constant warfare among Arabic tribes during the prophet Muhammad’s days. It was necessary because of the harsh desert environment in which too little resources were available to too many people. It was a dog-eat-dog world. This mode of thinking permeates the Middle East today where the Shiites are fighting the Sunnis. Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, Taliban are all battling because the first instinct is to fight rather than negotiate. Even the Israelis are into this.
 
. . . That’s it, all in proper order, take it for what it is…one man’s journey. . . John
Be aware that your views rest on a strong Catholic foundation.

Consider that, were you to promote your current beliefs to someone who does not possess that basis, you could be contributing to the formation of a demon.

There are people who fear nothing but their own death and are prepared to do anything to fulfill their whims. There are people who have no love in them, no respect for truth and there is no depravity to which they will not sink. There is clearly a wide spectrum of individuals between where you are and those that fit this description; but witness Nazi Germany as an archetypal example: what separates civilized man from the brute, can be quite fragile. Don’t encourage it by leaviing out your fundemental beliefs (that hopefully, I am not misreading between the lines) about love being of crucial importance to us.
 
In other words there is nothing to distinguish deists from materialists in daily life. It is a theory with no practical consequences - which is to be expected in a secular society.

How can unselfish love for persons we have never met be a simple and common biological act? Is being human no more than an advanced animal phenomenon?
We live by materialism. If we were free spirits without any need for water, food, or shelter, we could afford to avoid materialism. If we strive to avoid materialism, our bodies will die. Is this the preference of the Catholic Church? After all, being human is to do the things that the rest of the creatures on earth do: have sex, eat, drink, and often prepare nests with materials. I suppose that the more one can distance himself/herself from materialism, the vile need of humans, the more one can begin to approach pure spirituality.
 
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