The recurring question without an answer

[Annie]

What you meant to say was that all the people in lordes ‘might’ be a sign that god is doing miracles but we dont know because there are some people he doesnt cure. And we dont want to know for sure. We just want to think it might be him because if we did know then we definitely wouldnt have any doubt.

I have no idea how you got this from what I wrote.

God wants us to choose to love Him. He does not want us to be forced to believe in Him; He does not want us to use Him as a dispenser of whatever we want.

For the latter reason, He does not give us everything we ask for; for the former, He gives us enough evidence to be able to reasonably choose Him, but not so much that we are forced to.

All of the above is my theory only.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

What you meant to say was that all the people in lordes ‘might’ be a sign that god is doing miracles but we dont know because there are some people he doesnt cure. And we dont want to know for sure. We just want to think it might be him because if we did know then we definitely wouldnt have any doubt.

I have no idea how you got this from what I wrote.

God wants us to choose to love Him. He does not want us to be forced to believe in Him; He does not want us to use Him as a dispenser of whatever we want.

For the latter reason, He does not give us everything we ask for; for the former, He gives us enough evidence to be able to reasonably choose Him, but not so much that we are forced to.

All of the above is my theory only.

But you said that he doesnt give people new arms and legs because we would know there was a god. But if he cures someone whos ill like with cancer you say that its a miracle and you tell people that god did it. Maybe what you should say is that if some people get better when they go to lourds then it might be god. Some people may be cured by god when they go and some people get better on their own. How do we know? You have to tell them it could be either because you dont know.

 

[Annie]

But if he cures someone whos ill like with cancer you say that its a miracle and you tell people that god did it… How do we know?

It is polite on a Catholic site to capitalize the name of God. It does not mean you believe in Him; it just means that you are respectful of your host’s beliefs.

We do not attribute every healing of cancer to a miracle from God. Most cancer cures are the result of medical practices and are not considered miraculous.

At Lourdes, when there seems to have been a cure as a result of the visit to Lourdes, an extensive medical examination of the case takes place. There are certain criteria which must be met before a cure is declared a miracle. Those we attribute to God’s work.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

But if he cures someone whos ill like with cancer you say that its a miracle and you tell people that god did it… How do we know?

It is polite on a Catholic site to capitalize the name of God. It does not mean you believe in Him; it just means that you are respectful of your host’s beliefs.

We do not attribute every healing of cancer to a miracle from God. Most cancer cures are the result of medical practices and are not considered miraculous.

At Lourdes, when there seems to have been a cure as a result of the visit to Lourdes, an extensive medical examination of the case takes place. There are certain criteria which must be met before a cure is declared a miracle. Those we attribute to God’s work.

Sorry about g for God! Ill remember that. Thank you for letting me know. And it must be the same for Jesus as well.

What ive read about some people who get better is that they just get better. Theres no reason for it. It just happens some times. And that happens to people who go to lourds as well as people who dont. What we need is to see is if more people get cured going to lourds than those who dont. Or a bigger proportion is what i mean. Like if a thousand people get cancer and ten people who dont go to lourds get better for no reason then how many people with cancer get cured by going to lourds? If we dont know how many then we cant say if its better going there.

I dont know where we can get all that information. Do you know where we can?

 

[Annie]

I do not know either! Of course, people get cured of things other than cancer too, at Lourdes.

 

[Barnesy]

I do not know either! Of course, people get cured of things other than cancer too, at Lourdes.

Yeah i know that. Well except for new arms and legs! But if we dont know if more people get cured if they go to lourds than if they didnt go there then we dont know if it was because they went there. That makes sense to me. Maybe some other people know where we can get the figures and we can check because its always better to have the evidence.

 

[Gorgias]

So you told the other guy that his arguments werent his but were from other people but you used what jesus said. And i thought great! I can use them as well! But now you said that people knew what he said before because other people had said it already so it wasnt jesus idea. So were you using jesus arguments or other peoples that came before him???

Ahh! Now I get it! (I wasn’t putting two and two together there!)

So, Christians would say that God inspired the Bible. So, in a sense, the ideas about theology that come from the Bible are from God. Moreover, we’d say that God protects the Church from teaching error in its doctrine. So again: from God, right?

Now, the arguments macska has been presenting here aren’t his – he read them off a website, or in a book, and even then, those probably aren’t the ideas of the person who designed the site or wrote the book. Ideas that agnostics and atheists and rationalists and materialists use… well, they come from a person, who then passes them on to another person, who passes them… and so on and so on.

That’s really what I was getting at.

But, in terms of “ideas that Jesus came up with”, I would think that His message of radical love of God and neighbor was an original one. The notion that God had sent Jesus with the mission to redeem the world through His Incarnate Son is unique, as well. Forgiving “seventy times seventy times” – above the requirements of the law – is a distinct one. There are many. Is there any one in particular that you’d like to discuss?

 

[Kindnessmatters]

The church is clear on this situation. The child may be delivered early if the mother’s life would be endangered by continuing the pregnancy, such as if she has preeclampsia. In case of a tubal pregnancy, the fallopian tube in which the embryo has implanted can be removed to save the mother. Similarly, conjoined twins may be separated in an effort to save both even if it is likely or even a foregone conclusion one will die.

In a scenario in which a mentally ill person is seriously threatening others, such as shooting at their family, they can be killed to stop that threat.

I cannot really think of other scenarios that match what this post is about. I do have to wonder why someone would seemingly obsess over such a question? I hope not to justify planned actions

 

[Gorgias]

So if my mother has cancer we can tell her that god might cure her and we can pray and we can say thats proof of god if she gets better. But if my dad needs a new arm we have to tell him that he wont do that because thats to much proof!

Is that how it works??

No, and this is something that macska takes exception to. The whole point of prayer isn’t to “hit it rich”, like as if God were a great big slot machine in the sky. The purpose of prayer is to become closer in communication with God and His will. Do we want our loved ones to be healed? Of course. But, that’s not the purpose of prayer, properly understood.

So, if the goal of prayer isn’t merely “receipt of what I’ve asked for”, then we can’t use “receipt of what I’ve asked for” as a measurement of the efficacy of prayer. Doing so would be like measuring your weight with a yardstick. Oh, you could take a measurement, all right… but it wouldn’t be measuring what you think it would, and your conclusions would be all wrong.

 

[tafan2]

I don’t disagree, indeed I believe I pointed out the principle of double effect early on in this thread.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

So you told the other guy that his arguments werent his but were from other people but you used what jesus said. And i thought great! I can use them as well! But now you said that people knew what he said before because other people had said it already so it wasnt jesus idea. So were you using jesus arguments or other peoples that came before him???

Ahh! Now I get it! (I wasn’t putting two and two together there!)

So, Christians would say that God inspired the Bible. So, in a sense, the ideas about theology that come from the Bible are from God. Moreover, we’d say that God protects the Church from teaching error in its doctrine. So again: from God, right?

Now, the arguments macska has been presenting here aren’t his – he read them off a website, or in a book, and even then, those probably aren’t the ideas of the person who designed the site or wrote the book. Ideas that agnostics and atheists and rationalists and materialists use… well, they come from a person, who then passes them on to another person, who passes them… and so on and so on.

That’s really what I was getting at.

But, in terms of “ideas that Jesus came up with”, I would think that His message of radical love of God and neighbor was an original one. The notion that God had sent Jesus with the mission to redeem the world through His Incarnate Son is unique, as well. Forgiving “seventy times seventy times” – above the requirements of the law – is a distinct one. There are many. Is there any one in particular that you’d like to discuss?

But theres lots in the bible that you wouldnt use as an argument. You wouldnt want to kill some body for working on a sunday would you?? So you cant just say use the bible. And you said actual Jesus arguments. Not the bible. And you used examples like love God. But thats not an argument. Thats a comandment. And the person you were talking to doesnt believe in God so thats no good anyway. And you said that Jesus said to love your neighbour.

I looked that one up and theyre both in Matthew. He said that you must love your neighbour as you love yourself. And thats what i said that Jesus didnt say that first. Thats the golden rule which lots of people said before he said it. So your wrong when you said it was original.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

So if my mother has cancer we can tell her that god might cure her and we can pray and we can say thats proof of god if she gets better. But if my dad needs a new arm we have to tell him that he wont do that because thats to much proof!

Is that how it works??

No, and this is something that macska takes exception to. The whole point of prayer isn’t to “hit it rich”, like as if God were a great big slot machine in the sky. The purpose of prayer is to become closer in communication with God and His will. Do we want our loved ones to be healed? Of course. But, that’s not the purpose of prayer, properly understood.

So, if the goal of prayer isn’t merely “receipt of what I’ve asked for”, then we can’t use “receipt of what I’ve asked for” as a measurement of the efficacy of prayer. Doing so would be like measuring your weight with a yardstick. Oh, you could take a measurement, all right… but it wouldn’t be measuring what you think it would, and your conclusions would be all wrong.

But people go to lourds and pray to get better. And then others say that the prayers worked because they got better. Its a miracle! Thats ok. I understand that. But if someone goes to lourds and needs a new arm then you would tell them not to bother because its not going to work. Youd tell some one with cancer to go but not the man with no arm because God doesnt do that. Thats what i dont understand.

And another thing is that we dont know how many people who got cured would have got cured anyway. I dont think any one has been checking so we dont know. So we can say they might have been cured (unless it was a new arm) but we dont know.

 

[Annie]

another thing is that we dont know how many people who got cured would have got cured anyway. I dont think any one has been checking so we dont know. So we can say they might have been cured (unless it was a new arm) but we dont know.

The Church has been checking on the cases in which there was little chance of spontaneous or psychological remission.

This article explains how the cures at Lourdes are examined in order to determine whether they can be considered miraculous. They undergo rigorous examination over periods of time by several doctors. This article explains the criteria for declaring a cure miraculous, and how the examination is made.

 

[Gorgias]

But theres lots in the bible that you wouldnt use as an argument. You wouldnt want to kill some body for working on a sunday would you??

Nope… but let’s take a look at that. First, you’re looking at a prescription of the Mosaic covenant (not Jesus’ New Covenant). Second, you’re looking at a particular interpretation of a way to fulfill that prescription, and not the prescription itself. (In other words, someone in authority would have to say how we should fulfill that requirement, and what consequences come from not doing so, right? And… who would be that authority, in a Christian context?)

So… with these two ideas in play, I think we would say that “working on Sunday” isn’t what the commandment addresses, and any consequences (up to and including “killing”) aren’t what the Church proposes. So… how might we know what the standard is? We’d look at the Church… and the Church suggests that we attend Mass on Sunday as our way of fulfilling this commandment.

So you cant just say use the bible.

I don’t say “just use the Bible.” I say “use the Church, who provided us with the Bible, and gives us guidance.”

And you used examples like love God. But thats not an argument. Thats a comandment.

Erm… you were looking for what Jesus taught, weren’t you? And doesn’t Jesus say “love God”?

And the person you were talking to doesnt believe in God so thats no good anyway.

Hmm. So, if a person doesn’t believe in God, then how do they approach the reasonability of what Jesus teaches?

And you said that Jesus said to love your neighbour.

Yes. Love God and love neighbor.
]

[Jesus] said that you must love your neighbour as you love yourself. And thats what i said that Jesus didnt say that first. Thats the golden rule which lots of people said before he said it.

That’s not the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is “do unto others as you would have done to yourself.” “Do unto others” is not the same thing as “love others”! I mean, I could defer smacking you upside the head, merely because I don’t want you to smack me upside the head… but in doing so, do I love you? No… I just defer from hitting you. Jesus is offering a new standard here!

So your wrong when you said it wasJesus is original.

Nope. Jesus is saying something new – it’s not just “how you act”, but also “where your heart is.”

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

another thing is that we dont know how many people who got cured would have got cured anyway. I dont think any one has been checking so we dont know. So we can say they might have been cured (unless it was a new arm) but we dont know.

The Church has been checking on the cases in which there was little chance of spontaneous or psychological remission.

This article explains how the cures at Lourdes are examined in order to determine whether they can be considered miraculous. They undergo rigorous examination over periods of time by several doctors. This article explains the criteria for declaring a cure miraculous, and how the examination is made.

Thank you annie! Now we need to find out how many people get better on their own without going to lourds so we can see if it makes a difference.

 

[Gorgias]

But if someone goes to lourds and needs a new arm then you would tell them not to bother because its not going to work.

Nah. I’d tell them not to go to Lourdes merely for a physical healing devoid of spiritual healing. Could God regenerate an arm if He wished? Sure. Do we think that’s something that He might wish?

And another thing is that we dont know how many people who got cured would have got cured anyway.

I agree. However, I’ve gotta ask: how many would have gotten cured without any known physical / medical cause?

So we can say they might have been cured (unless it was a new arm) but we dont know.

Ahh, but we can say that they were cured without any evidence of known physical or medical cause, can’t we?

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

But if someone goes to lourds and needs a new arm then you would tell them not to bother because its not going to work.

Nah. I’d tell them not to go to Lourdes merely for a physical healing devoid of spiritual healing. Could God regenerate an arm if He wished? Sure. Do we think that’s something that He might wish?

And another thing is that we dont know how many people who got cured would have got cured anyway.

I agree. However, I’ve gotta ask: how many would have gotten cured without any known physical / medical cause?

I dont know. We need to find out so we can check.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

But theres lots in the bible that you wouldnt use as an argument. You wouldnt want to kill some body for working on a sunday would you??

Nope… but let’s take a look at that.

Gee theres a lot to answer and i dont know how to divide it up. So here goes.

First you said use Jesus arguments and then you said use the bible and now you are saying to use the church. You should have said that to the other person back in the other post instead of changing it all the time.

And I was looking for an argument that you said Jesus used not a commandment. And telling someone to love God if they dont believe in God is useless anyway.

If someone doesnt believe in God then they can still listen to what Jesus said. Jewish people listen to what he says and they dont think hes the son of God. If he says some thing smart then we should listen if we believe in God or not. Just like we should listen if some one like Ghandi says some thing smart.

And love your neighbour is the golden rule. Just read this.
The Golden Rule is stated positively numerous times in the Old Testament: Leviticus 19:18 ("Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:

I got that from here Golden Rule - Wikipedia

I dont want to be rude but if you think its not the golden rule then your wrong. And Jesus wasnt the first person to say it either.

I had to delete some of your post because it said there were too many words. Sorry.

 

[Spaten]

Nah. I’d tell them not to go to Lourdes merely for a physical healing devoid of spiritual healing. Could God regenerate an arm if He wished? Sure. Do we think that’s something that He might wish?

Very true. We cannot have any idea what God’s preference might be. Would he wish to remove some suffering? How could we know? The only way to make a guess (and that would be just a guess) is to ask God to perform an act that we surmise would be in God’s will. Like spreading love, good will, lessen pain and suffering. We can be reasonably sure that these outcomes would be aligned with God’s will.

But there is no sign of any of these happening. So we can surmise that lessening suffering, spreading love and good will are not something that God cares a lot about… As a matter of fact there is nothing in this world that would point to the existence of a loving and caring deity.

 

[Barnesy]

Gorgias:

Nah. I’d tell them not to go to Lourdes merely for a physical healing devoid of spiritual healing. Could God regenerate an arm if He wished? Sure. Do we think that’s something that He might wish?

Very true. We cannot have any idea what God’s preference might be. Would he wish to remove some suffering? How could we know? The only way to make a guess (and that would be just a guess) is to ask God to perform an act that we surmise would be in God’s will. Like spreading love, good will, lessen pain and suffering. We can be reasonably sure that these outcomes would be aligned with God’s will.

But there is no sign of any of these happening. So we can surmise that lessening suffering, spreading love and good will are not something that God cares a lot about… As a matter of fact there is nothing in this world that would point to the existence of a loving and caring deity.

But if more people get better by going to lourds than get better by staying at home then that might be some thing that says God exists wouldnt it? We just need the information from somewhere. Even though he wont cure missing arms and legs. But like someone said if he did that wed know for definite that he exists and we arent allowed to know that. I think it was annie that said that.