The Red Pill: How radical feminism is demeaning to men

[Xantippe]

I think one problem with the Red Pill mentality is that they assume ALL women are essentially the same when it comes to what they find attractive in a man, or what they value in general.

[snip]

Anyway, the assumption seems to be, “The interests of men and women are too divergent for there to ever be equal relationships or common goals between them. It’s a question of whether men dominate, or women dominate. Since I’m a man, nothing wrong with me advocating for men, I’m just doing what women are doing for their own sex”. The whole assumption of a neverending battle between men and women is the problem here.

And what women are supposed to like according to the Red Pill is very porny and lowest-common-denominator.

Plus, I’ve never heard a Red Pill theory that accounts for the raging popularity of English men among American women, despite the fact that Englishmen are famously shy and self-effacing.

elle.com/life-love/sex-relationships/advice/a12712/why-american-women-like-british-men/

Your last paragraph is very interesting. We are, after all, supposed to be managing the multi-decade project of having a family together, which is a pretty exhausting proposition if it’s going to be decades of back-stabbing, cheating, and power struggles.

 

[DarkLight]

Women working also opens them up to being with men that they may respect but who don’t necessarily make a lot of money.

My boyfriend has an associates in a medical assistance field, which is a necessary job but pays incredibly poorly. I have significantly more education than that and quite likely a higher income potential. If I had to worry about him supporting me, this simply probably wouldn’t be a possible relationship. As it is, I’m happy to be with a Catholic man who shares both my values and my interests.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If you used that phrase ever, you would be a very rare exception. Similarly, no one says the phrase “a real woman” or a “real lady” anymore; if they did, they would immediately set upon as misogynist. Whereas we all know “a real man” is a quite common and respectable phrase.

The point being, the intrinsic worth of girls/women is widely recognized (at least in the US), but not so men.

A facebook friend of mine recently shared one of the many “self-esteem” memes for women, ending with the phrase “If you are a woman, you are already remarkable”. I really can’t remember anything equivalent for men, maybe you know of one.

I doubt it. I’ve done a lot of volunteer work with kids; being a woman worthy of looking up to is a concept that’s thought of and talked about a lot in those situations.

I don’t like participation trophies or blanket affirmations like the one you described. I have a friend who posts them too; and she’s just not the kind of person you want your kid growing up to be.

If you’re talking about marriage, I think each person has to prove their intrinsic worth as a spouse, you know, since we’re not big on arranged marriages or mail order brides.

I also draw a very hard distinction between public and private life. Under the law, everyone should be treated the same. But in your private life, if you can’t settle for anyone less than a stay at home Martha Stewart who looks like a supermodel and calls you ‘Master’, I don’t care. Put it on your dating profile and see what you can get. Heck, if you want to go all Mormon fundamentalist and marry three of the above women, it’s fine with me too.

In my private life, civil equality of men and women aside, I never asked a man on a date and I would not have been willing to. I had a guy split the bill on a first date once, and I didn’t see him again. My husband is unequivocally the leader of our home, but he would be the first to defend my autonomy outside of it. These are private sexual and familial choices that don’t require a defense.

But being upset that women at least tend to be naturally drawn to confident, successful men who fit the “real man” archetype is a lot like being mad that men like thin women who laugh at their jokes - a total waste of time.

 

[Xantippe]

Expatreprocedit,

“Real woman” is actually in common use. Here are some places you’ll bump into it:

1. “Real women have curves”/discussions of magazine versus non-airbrushed real life women
2. Discussions about natural childbirth and breastfeeding.
3. Discussions about whether or not transwomen are “real women.”

You may have bumped into #1 but probably not #2 if you’re a guy. I have to say, as a mom of some years experience, that I see #2 as mom-hazing. The idea is, you’re not a “real woman” if you have anesthesia during childbirth, get a c-section or formula feed. This leads to all sorts of bad places.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Would you rather marry a woman who felt she had to marry you (and stay with you) because you had an ok job and she wasn’t capable of supporting herself?

No, if I was going to get married I would prefer a woman who trusts me enough to be a leader and support the family.

Also, many such traditional cultures practice polygamy, or should I say polygyny, with 1 husband having many wives, meaning that many who DO qualify actually get more than one wife. So unless there is a severe shortage of men, many men don’t get to marry at all. Some poor women in such societies are even encouraged to become the “junior wife” or even “concubine” of a rich man, that is considered to put them in a higher social class, than being legally married to a a poor man who can only support one wife.

This doesn’t seem much different from the “women go for the alpha males and the beta males get used and abused” rhetoric regarding the supposed plight of the “nice guys” in “modern society”.

That is part of my pet theory on when Islamic terrorism is such a problem. The dominant religion allows men to have 5 wives each. So that potentially means 80% of the men are sexually frustrated and willing to blow themselves up for 72 virgins.

I think the assumption is “Women STILL see men as meal tickets, but the difference is, at least before Feminism, they still had to pay for their keep by providing their husbands with sex, child care, and housekeeping. Women these days don’t want to do anything to help men, but they want that Bridezilla wedding experience. Afterward, they’re happy to file for divorce and take their husbands to the cleaners.”

Essentially a “women are all selfish and evil, but men unfortunately still need them to provide sex and to provide heirs, God (or random evolution) designed things this way, so men need to stand up for their rights to fight against this inherently unfair state of nature” attitude.

I do not care whether or not nature is fair, it just is. The rabbit can complain about fairness but that will not stop the wolf from eating him. Only the weak complain about fairness, the strong master themselves and then master their surroundings.

Oh Xan, you know the canned response to this:

“Female hypergamy drives women to only be attracted to men above them. If women would stop getting an education/having careers, the average man would be much more attractive to women”.

Red Pill: Making Mediocrity Sexy

I think it’s actually the male version of “fat acceptance” or “body positivity”. It’s a desire to realign society and control to opposite sex so that you (not you personally) feel more attractive or desirable in comparison but without having to do the work of actually improving yourself.

Then we definitely are talking about a different version of the Red Pill. I imagine that for a woman sleeping with a beta is as repulsive as to her as an obese woman is to me.

I also predict that eventually SST will lament that sexbots haven’t been invented yet, for a well designed one would solve his dilemma of being sexually attracted to women while simultaneously hating and fearing them.

Then you clearly do not understand me or my thought process. Side note though, Xantippe is worried about young men learning about sex from porn. I can only imagine her level of worry when young men are learning about sex from their Scarlet Johansson-lookalike realistic-feeling robot.

See also Roosh V’s various escapades in poorer Eastern European countries.

Unless he was offering an “arrangement”, his choice of venue proves little. Since cost of living over there is cheaper than here, he might just be trying to obtain what he wants at a minimal cost to himself.

If you’re talking about marriage, I think each person has to prove their intrinsic worth as a spouse, you know, since we’re not big on arranged marriages or mail order brides.

I also draw a very hard distinction between public and private life. Under the law, everyone should be treated the same. But in your private life, if you can’t settle for anyone less than a stay at home Martha Stewart who looks like a supermodel and calls you ‘Master’, I don’t care. Put it on your dating profile and see what you can get. Heck, if you want to go all Mormon fundamentalist and marry three of the above women, it’s fine with me too.

In my private life, civil equality of men and women aside, I never asked a man on a date and I would not have been willing to. I had a guy split the bill on a first date once, and I didn’t see him again. My husband is unequivocally the leader of our home, but he would be the first to defend my autonomy outside of it. These are private sexual and familial choices that don’t require a defense.

I can live with that.

But being upset that women at least tend to be naturally drawn to confident, successful men who fit the “real man” archetype is a lot like being mad that men like thin women who laugh at their jokes - a total waste of time.

I never been resentful of men more successful and attractive than me. That is a pointless waste of time. That smart thing to do is to figure out what those men did right and emulate them.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Expatreprocedit,

“Real woman” is actually in common use. Here are some places you’ll bump into it:

1. “Real women have curves”/discussions of magazine versus non-airbrushed real life women

Are we talking about curves or “curve”? Because I usually only hear that when the conversation shifts to fat acceptance.

1. Discussions about natural childbirth and breastfeeding.

1. Discussions about whether or not transwomen are “real women.”

You may have bumped into #1 but probably not #2 if you’re a guy. I have to say, as a mom of some years experience, that I see #2 as mom-hazing. The idea is, you’re not a “real woman” if you have anesthesia during childbirth, get a c-section or formula feed. This leads to all sorts of bad places.

I have never heard anything about #2. Though #3 made me laugh a little bit. At the women’s march to protest the God Emperor, the “transwomen” apparently accused the march’s organizers of promoting a patriarchal concept of “genital-based womanhood”.

 

[DarkLight]

I’ve also heard stuff like “if you don’t want to get married, have kids, and be a stay-at-home mother (preferably a homeschooling mother), you’re not a real woman.”

As far as this:

I do not care whether or not nature is fair, it just is. The rabbit can complain about fairness but that will not stop the wolf from eating him. Only the weak complain about fairness, the strong master themselves and then master their surroundings.

This is the kind of thing that makes us say this ideology cannot be reconciled with Catholicism. Catholicism requires one to love justice, to abhor the strong preying on the weak. Our faith is the faith of “remember, you also have a Master”. It’s the faith of “whatever you did for the least of these, you did also for me.” And I imagine the husband would do well to remember that he is called to love “as Christ loved the Church” - a Church that He died for well before they loved Him.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

I’ve also heard stuff like “if you don’t want to get married, have kids, and be a stay-at-home mother (preferably a homeschooling mother), you’re not a real woman.”

Outside of a few subcultures, I doubt this type of thing has been said in the US for decades.

 

[on_the_hill]

I’m not going to read the whole thread.

I have a very dim view of Red Pill and its ilk.

For the most part, they seem to be Man-children who spend their lives on creepy Internet sites then get bitter because women don’t want to be around creepers.

Which I think it awesome because it leaves all the more women for me. Except I’m married, and my wife won’t let me date.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

I’m not going to read the whole thread.

I have a very dim view of Red Pill and its ilk.

For the most part, they seem to be Man-children who spend their lives on creepy Internet sites then get bitter because women don’t want to be around creepers.

Which I think it awesome because it leaves all the more women for me. Except I’m married, and my wife won’t let me date.

I’m sure some of them fit that description.

And of course the common line about feminists used to be that they were bitter because they couldn’t get men.

 

[Xantippe]

Are we talking about curves or “curve”? Because I usually only hear that when the conversation shifts to fat acceptance.I have never heard anything about #2. Though #3 made me laugh a little bit. At the women’s march to protest the God Emperor, the “transwomen” apparently accused the march’s organizers of promoting a patriarchal concept of “genital-based womanhood”.

Yeah, #2 is not something that single guys are normally exposed to.

But there is a lot of weirdness surrounding pregnancy and new motherhood that rookie moms get sucked into. As I always say, beware mom cults.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve also heard stuff like “if you don’t want to get married, have kids, and be a stay-at-home mother (preferably a homeschooling mother), you’re not a real woman.”

As far as this:

This is the kind of thing that makes us say this ideology cannot be reconciled with Catholicism. Catholicism requires one to love justice, to abhor the strong preying on the weak. Our faith is the faith of “remember, you also have a Master”. It’s the faith of “whatever you did for the least of these, you did also for me.” And I imagine the husband would do well to remember that he is called to love “as Christ loved the Church” - a Church that He died for well before they loved Him.

Yes.

Nietzschean Christianity isn’t a thing.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah, #2 is not something that single guys are normally exposed to.

But there is a lot of weirdness surrounding pregnancy and new motherhood that rookie moms get sucked into. As I always say, beware mom cults.

Ugh, yes. That friend I mentioned earlier who posts the weird affirmations about womanhood is the worst offender in my life. As soon as she found out I’m pregnant she flooded me with unsolicited advice about how I shouldn’t use nail polish or dye my hair. Since then, it’s been all breastfeeding all the time, even though my husband and I have already decided against it with the full support of my OB.

She was really getting to me, but then my husband pointed out that her only real accomplishment in life is being able to deliver a child vaginally without induction.

 

[Xantippe]

Ugh, yes. That friend I mentioned earlier who posts the weird affirmations about womanhood is the worst offender in my life. As soon as she found out I’m pregnant she flooded me with unsolicited advice about how I shouldn’t use nail polish or dye my hair. Since then, it’s been all breastfeeding all the time, even though my husband and I have already decided against it with the full support of my OB.

She was really getting to me, but then my husband pointed out that her only real accomplishment in life is being able to deliver a child vaginally without induction.

Now I feel better about not flooding you with pregnancy/new mom pointers!

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

She was really getting to me, but then my husband pointed out that her only real accomplishment in life is being able to deliver a child vaginally without induction.

Oooh, good on her, for only becoming a mother! She must not be all that arrogant then, or think she’s better than everyone else, right? Oooh, look at me and all that I’ve accomplished in life!

 

[Xantippe]

Oooh, good on her, for only becoming a mother! She must not be all that arrogant then, or think she’s better than everyone else, right? Oooh, look at me and all that I’ve accomplished in life!

There really are women out there who regard not having a c-section as a major achievement on their part, rather than sheer dumb luck.

 

[DarkLight]

Ugh, yes. That friend I mentioned earlier who posts the weird affirmations about womanhood is the worst offender in my life. As soon as she found out I’m pregnant she flooded me with unsolicited advice about how I shouldn’t use nail polish or dye my hair. Since then, it’s been all breastfeeding all the time, even though my husband and I have already decided against it with the full support of my OB.

She was really getting to me, but then my husband pointed out that her only real accomplishment in life is being able to deliver a child vaginally without induction.

The big ones I’d get are unsolicited advice assuming that I really need my goal in life to be to find a man to have babies with. I’m 29 and just barely starting to date, and I have had so much unsolicited advice on what I need to do to get a man. (And let’s not even get started on the subject of kids!)

Oooh, good on her, for only becoming a mother! She must not be all that arrogant then, or think she’s better than everyone else, right? Oooh, look at me and all that I’ve accomplished in life!

I don’t think it’s that she’s only a mother. I think it’s that she’s holding up “I delivered vaginally and breastfed my baby!” as her major accomplishment that makes her better than other women who are or are going to be mothers, but didn’t go that route.

A lot of young mothers I know suffer from the “if you don’t do it this way you’re going to RUIN YOUR CHILD FOREVER problem.”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

There really are women out there who regard not having a c-section as a major achievement on their part, rather than sheer dumb luck.

Bingo.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I don’t think it’s that she’s only a mother. I think it’s that she’s holding up “I delivered vaginally and breastfed my baby!” as her major accomplishment that makes her better than other women who are or are going to be mothers, but didn’t go that route.

A lot of young mothers I know suffer from the “if you don’t do it this way you’re going to RUIN YOUR CHILD FOREVER problem.”

It’s the cult of mommy martyrdom fed near as I can tell, entirely by bloggers with no medical education or formal child development training whatsoever. What you hear from this subculture vs from your doctor often couldn’t be more opposite.

It’s also been my experience that the women who devote themselves to this stuff are desperate for a self esteem boost wherever they can get it.

 

[Xantippe]

A lot of young mothers I know suffer from the “if you don’t do it this way you’re going to RUIN YOUR CHILD FOREVER problem.”

Right.