The Red Pill: How radical feminism is demeaning to men

[Crown_of_Stars]

I don’t think it’s that she’s only a mother. I think it’s that she’s holding up “I delivered vaginally and breastfed my baby!” as her major accomplishment that makes her better than other women who are or are going to be mothers, but didn’t go that route.

I was being sarcastic. In actuality, what I’m seeing is the supremacy of the women who dump their kid off at the daycare all day and have the supremacist attitude that mothers who stay home are lazy nothings. That’s what I’m seeing and get awfully sick of. But I’m not going to argue, because it’s not my cup of tea…or coffee. Those who disagree with me, I’m sorry. Have a nice night

 

[Xantippe]

It’s the cult of mommy martyrdom fed near as I can tell, entirely by bloggers with no medical education or formal child development training whatsoever. What you hear from this subculture vs from your doctor often couldn’t be more opposite.

You’re right about the gaping abyss separating mom cult advice and actual medical advice.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I was being sarcastic. In actuality, what I’m seeing is the supremacy of the women who dump their kid off at the daycare all day and have the supremacist attitude that mothers who stay home are lazy nothings. That’s what I’m seeing and get awfully sick of. But I’m not going to argue, because it’s not my cup of tea…or coffee. Those who disagree with me, I’m sorry. Have a nice night

No one said anything about childcare vs staying home, so I’m not sure what you were disagreeing with.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

She was really getting to me, but then my husband pointed out that her only real accomplishment in life is being able to deliver a child vaginally without induction.

“Only”. No doubt your husband would have had a higher opinion of her if she had made a few mill.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m just waiting for when it’s my turn.

I’m 29 now. If I stay with my current boyfriend…let’s say we date for about 3 years. That’ll put me at 32 getting married. Which means the first baby would probably be no sooner than 33 years old. If I end up having more after that, well then!

I think the lesson is you can’t win - no matter what you do as a woman, there’s plenty of people out there to tell you that you’re doing it horribly wrong and ruining it for your husband, your kids, your parents, and everyone else.

 

[Xantippe]

“Only”. No doubt your husband would have had a higher opinion of her if she had made a few mill.

Being a competent mother to the kid would be a plus, too.

I think you don’t understand (being a guy) how weirdly overfocused on pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding the mom cult is. It’s like kids don’t really count once they’re already born and not breastfeeding anymore.

 

[Sarcelle]

Being a competent mother to the kid would be a plus, too.

I think you don’t understand (being a guy) how weirdly overfocused on pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding the mom cult is. It’s like kids don’t really count once they’re already born and not breastfeeding anymore.

Is this more of the attitude of younger moms though?

I am assuming the mommy blogging cult are mostly made up of younger women, especially in the Christian blogosphere. The most significant aspects of motherhood for them are the pregnancy and birth. As they grow older and their kids grow up other events take precedence.

Older moms with teen-ages and adult children focus on other aspects, at least most of them I know.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

“Only”. No doubt your husband would have had a higher opinion of her if she had made a few mill.

Or, you know, if she treated other people with a modicum of respect. Note, he didn’t say her only accomplishment was raising happy, healthy children, and that’s not the part she’s proud of.

It’s great to be proud of being a mom. But it’s crazy to disparage other women who become mothers via emergency C-sections, for instance. But, there’s this widespread belief among a lot of young moms that if you don’t deliver vaginally or if you choose an epidural, or if you need Pitocin, or if you bottle feed, you won’t bond with your baby. This is a really modern thing; I’ve never heard any of this stuff from anyone who delivered prior to say, 2000.

 

[Xantippe]

Is this more of the attitude of younger moms though?

I am assuming the mommy blogging cult are mostly made up of younger women, especially in the Christian blogosphere. The most significant aspects of motherhood for them are the pregnancy and birth. As they grow older and their kids grow up other events take precedence.

Older moms with teen-ages and adult children focus on other aspects, at least most of them I know.

Fortunately, yes, but there are older women who are still nuts on the subject–in fact a lot of them “go pro” and become midwives, lactation consultants, etc. Not that all midwives or lactation consultants are nuts, of course.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Fortunately, yes, but there are older women who are still nuts on the subject–in fact a lot of them “go pro” and become midwives, lactation consultants, etc. Not that all midwives or lactation consultants are nuts, of course.

I’m lucky. My husband and I are the first in our circle of friends and relatives to have kids, so I’m not getting it from every direction like some people do. Most of our friends are full of weird and charming questions, not insulting or crazy advice. I just have the one friend/cousin who is way too into online mommy stuff who sends me all sorts of crazy advice, articles, etc. She even went so far as to send my mom an article that was supposed to gently explain to grandparents why they won’t be allowed to babysit for the first few years. My mom cried thinking this was something I had discussed with my cousin, and I was livid. My mom can babysit anytime she wants at any age!

 

[Xantippe]

Or, you know, if she treated other people with a modicum of respect. Note, he didn’t say her only accomplishment was raising happy, healthy children, and that’s not the part she’s proud of.

It’s great to be proud of being a mom. But it’s crazy to disparage other women who become mothers via emergency C-sections, for instance. But, there’s this widespread belief among a lot of young moms that if you don’t deliver vaginally or if you choose an epidural, or if you need Pitocin, or if you bottle feed, you won’t bond with your baby. This is a really modern thing; I’ve never heard any of this stuff from anyone who delivered prior to say, 2000.

I think this sheds a light on what your contact means by women are automatically remarkable. I feel like there’s some fine print there: “…if they do things exactly my way.”

I think this stuff existed before 2000 (I picked up some really unfortunate ideas around then), but you had to go out of your way to find it because the internet wasn’t as developed. It wasn’t so mainstream among mothers and bad ideas spread more slowly. Also, dangerous ideas are often packaged as female empowerment.

Side note–I have a good friend who is crunchy-skeptical and she sends me stuff from a local Facebook crunchy mom group. There was a recent one about curing ear infection by sticking garlic clove in the child’s ear and another one about curing an eye (!!!) issue with colloidal silver. I’m sure these are perfectly nice ladies, but man oh man this stuff is dangerous.

 

[DarkLight]

I think this sheds a light on what your contact means by women are automatically remarkable. I feel like there’s some fine print there: “…if they do things exactly my way.”

I think this stuff existed before 2000 (I picked up some really unfortunate ideas around then), but you had to go out of your way to find it because the internet wasn’t as developed. It wasn’t so mainstream among mothers and bad ideas spread more slowly. Also, dangerous ideas are often packaged as female empowerment.

Side note–I have a good friend who is crunchy-skeptical and she sends me stuff from a local Facebook crunchy mom group. There was a recent one about curing ear infection by sticking garlic clove in the child’s ear and another one about curing an eye (!!!) issue with colloidal silver. I’m sure these are perfectly nice ladies, but man oh man this stuff is dangerous.

My mother chose to bottle feed when I was born. That’s one of the things she’s complained about - that there was a lot of pressure on if you’re not breastfeeding you don’t care about your baby and they’re not going to get as good a start in life and whatnot.

So it’s not new.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think this stuff existed before 2000 (I picked up some really unfortunate ideas around then), but you had to go out of your way to find it because the internet wasn’t as developed. It wasn’t so mainstream among mothers and bad ideas spread more slowly. Also, dangerous ideas are often packaged as female empowerment.

Side note–I have a good friend who is crunchy-skeptical and she sends me stuff from a local Facebook crunchy mom group. There was a recent one about curing ear infection by sticking garlic clove in the child’s ear and another one about curing an eye (!!!) issue with colloidal silver. I’m sure these are perfectly nice ladies, but man oh man this stuff is dangerous.

I think there is a difference in the ideology of Catholic/Christian crunchy moms and feminist ones. Both tend to mistrust OB-GYNS, to a lesser extent pediatricians, and conventional medicine, many also are vaccine refusers. I’m not sure what the male/female breakdown of OB-GYN providers are but it seems many feminists who flock to midwives do so to get away from male doctors they see as having a fundamentally patriarchal attitude.

However, Catholic/Christian crunchy moms tend to mistrust medical providers because they have had bad experiences with them, say, refusing to believe someone who states she is NOT sexually active, or who reject NFP out of hand as an unreliable “rhythm method”, or because they know many OB-GYNs support abortion even if they don’t do it themselves, etc.

Interestingly, CAF used to have a much higher percentage of the crunchy moms around 10years ago, I recall the Ricki Lake documentary “The Business of Being Born” came out and that essentially accused all OB of being greedy, arrogant butchers who had no business to be anywhere near a healthy low-risk pregnancy. The idea that “giving birth is perfectly safe 99% of the time and isn’t a disease, so no need to see a doctor” was so strong on CAF at some point, that I even recall a poster asking for advice on how to have an “unassisted birth”, with no prenatal care or trained birth attendant at all. There were also many more “vaccines are conspiracy by greedy drug companies” anti-vaxxers around. It was scary.

So if anything it seems the pendulum has swung a little back towards a less extreme approach to issues of pregnancy, birth, and child care. Even breastfeeding. If BEL had proclaimed 10 years ago that she didn’t plan to breastfeed, she would have been attacked by at least 2, maybe 3, posters. Maybe more.

ETA: I recall a lot of cases of posters discussing problems with breastfeeding and being met with bullies who accused them of just not trying hard enough, or giving up too early, or that if they REALLY cared about their babies they’d be willing to sacrifice time, comfort, even their own health. Even though to me, I couldn’t see why an extremely stressed, burned-out breastfeeding mom was so obviously superior to a more relaxed, happier bottle feeding (or even just supplementing) mom/

 

[Xantippe]

I think there is a difference in the ideology of Catholic/Christian crunchy moms and feminist ones. Both tend to mistrust OB-GYNS, to a lesser extent pediatricians, and conventional medicine, many also are vaccine refusers. I’m not sure what the male/female breakdown of OB-GYN providers are but it seems many feminists who flock to midwives do so to get away from male doctors they see as having a fundamentally patriarchal attitude.

However, Catholic/Christian crunchy moms tend to mistrust medical providers because they have had bad experiences with them, say, refusing to believe someone who states she is NOT sexually active, or who reject NFP out of hand as an unreliable “rhythm method”, or because they know many OB-GYNs support abortion even if they don’t do it themselves, etc.

Interestingly, CAF used to have a much higher percentage of the crunchy moms around 10years ago, I recall the Ricki Lake documentary “The Business of Being Born” came out and that essentially accused all OB of being greedy, arrogant butchers who had no business to be anywhere near a healthy low-risk pregnancy. The idea that “giving birth is perfectly safe 99% of the time and isn’t a disease, so no need to see a doctor” was so strong on CAF at some point, that I even recall a poster asking for advice on how to have an “unassisted birth”, with no prenatal care or trained birth attendant at all. There were also many more “vaccines are conspiracy by greedy drug companies” anti-vaxxers around. It was scary.

So if anything it seems the pendulum has swung a little back towards a less extreme approach to issues of pregnancy, birth, and child care. Even breastfeeding. If BEL had proclaimed 10 years ago that she didn’t plan to breastfeed, she would have been attacked by at least 2, maybe 3, posters. Maybe more.

ETA: I recall a lot of cases of posters discussing problems with breastfeeding and being met with bullies who accused them of just not trying hard enough, or giving up too early, or that if they REALLY cared about their babies they’d be willing to sacrifice time, comfort, even their own health. Even though to me, I couldn’t see why an extremely stressed, burned-out breastfeeding mom was so obviously superior to a more relaxed, happier bottle feeding (or even just supplementing) mom/

I agree with a lot of your points. I think there’s a lot of overlap in practices between left/feminist crunchy women and right women–hence the Rod Dreher book “Crunchy Conservatives.” As somebody once said, the right and the left meet in the health food aisle.

I think a common thread is being willing to buck the mainstream. But unfortunately, sometimes the mainstream is right and the rebel is wrong, and if unlucky, dead.

There’s also the issue of poverty and/or being underinsured. That may, unfortunately, be fueling a lot of conservative religious people’s embrace of “alternative” medicine (for example essential oils).

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I agree with a lot of your points. I think there’s a lot of overlap in practices between left/feminist crunchy women and right women–hence the Rod Dreher book “Crunchy Conservatives.” As somebody once said, the right and the left meet in the health food aisle.

I think a common thread is being willing to buck the mainstream. But unfortunately, sometimes the mainstream is right and the rebel is wrong, and if unlucky, dead.

There’s also the issue of poverty and/or being underinsured. That may, unfortunately, be fueling a lot of conservative religious people’s embrace of “alternative” medicine (for example essential oils).

I think the overall concept of “bucking what the Establishment dictates is Truth but is actually a lie meant to maintain the unfair status quo” is something that transcends the traditional Right-Left political spectrum. Trump certainly took advantage of the sentiment, but so did Bernie Sanders.

Sadly, to bring this a little back to the original topic, I think much of the “anti-Establishment” sentiment has also fueled the “traditionalist” sentiment against the current Pope. Red Pillers who still claim to be Catholics, seem to be just as much guilty of “Cafeteria Catholicism” as the stereotypical feminist pro-choice SSA-supporting liberal.

 

[starshiptrooper]

This is the kind of thing that makes us say this ideology cannot be reconciled with Catholicism. Catholicism requires one to love justice, to abhor the strong preying on the weak. Our faith is the faith of “remember, you also have a Master”. It’s the faith of “whatever you did for the least of these, you did also for me.”

It was a descriptive statement, not a prescriptive one. As Han from Enter the Dragon says, " Who knows what delicate wonders have perished from the world for the want of strength?

And I imagine the husband would do well to remember that he is called to love “as Christ loved the Church” - a Church that He died for well before they loved Him.

Please do not bring St. Paul into this. Feminists have been ignoring the portion of his writing directed at wives for a long time now. I would donate my next paycheck to hear a priest confront that particular verse without trying to explain it away.

Sadly, to bring this a little back to the original topic, I think much of the “anti-Establishment” sentiment has also fueled the “traditionalist” sentiment against the current Pope. Red Pillers who still claim to be Catholics, seem to be just as much guilty of “Cafeteria Catholicism” as the stereotypical feminist pro-choice SSA-supporting liberal.

Yet I still wait to hear an actual Catholic teaching that I am contradicting.

 

[DarkLight]

IPlease do not bring St. Paul into this. Feminists have been ignoring the portion of his writing directed at wives for a long time now. I would donate my next paycheck to hear a priest confront that particular verse without trying to explain it away.

The fact that you don’t like how someone else treats a Bible passage has no bearing on how it affects what you’re saying right now.

Also, it’s funny how your statements suddenly change to “descriptive” when you’ve clearly been using them for why you shouldn’t care about prescriptive morality the whole time.

 

[Xantippe]

The fact that you don’t like how someone else treats a Bible passage has no bearing on how it affects what you’re saying right now.

Also, it’s funny how your statements suddenly change to “descriptive” when you’ve clearly been using them for why you shouldn’t care about prescriptive morality the whole time.

Yeah.

 

[ffg]

Please do not bring St. Paul into this. Feminists have been ignoring the portion of his writing directed at wives for a long time now. I would donate my next paycheck to hear a priest confront that particular verse without trying to explain it away.

Well, prep the ‘to’ line. (I’d guess you are not serious though, or you will find a way to keep your money)

Fr. John Ricardo addresses it quite well. He wrote his dissertation on it - in full context.

You can contact Ave Maria Radio and ask for the appropriate talk, if you so desire. (I’m not sure if you can search by topic, but if you can, you can search for Ephesians 5)

You can probably find his dissertation as well.

 

[starshiptrooper]

The fact that you don’t like how someone else treats a Bible passage has no bearing on how it affects what you’re saying right now.

Yeah it actually does. As General Patton said, “Read the whole Bible and not just the parts you like.” If you want to quote Ephesians at me, then I expect you are willing to acknowledge St Paul’s instruction for wives to submit to their husbands. Otherwise you are a hypocrite using Scripture to further your own agenda.

Also, it’s funny how your statements suddenly change to “descriptive” when you’ve clearly been using them for why you shouldn’t care about prescriptive morality the whole time.

It is funny how you read things into my statements that are not present. I never said that might makes right. My signature indicates the opposite, yet you seize on one thing and take it out of context.

Well, prep the ‘to’ line. (I’d guess you are not serious though, or you will find a way to keep your money)

Fr. John Ricardo addresses it quite well. He wrote his dissertation on it - in full context.

You can contact Ave Maria Radio and ask for the appropriate talk, if you so desire. (I’m not sure if you can search by topic, but if you can, you can search for Ephesians 5)

You can probably find his dissertation as well.

That will be worth listening to when I have a minute.