The reform of the O.F. Mass is closer

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Please tell me, what was so wrong with the current translation?

I hate change.😃

God Bless
It was a bad translation of the Latin texts of the Mass, and some of the translations are very important to the Catholic and orthodox Doctrine. It really shouldn’t be that hard to learn.

At OP: I think that this whole thing is simply applying a Barney Band-Aid to a huge laceration. Of course, I am grateful that the very important parts have been re-translated correctly. However, I think it will take more than these few changes they’ve made to the translation. In my opinion, this is not so much “better” as it is “less bad”.

God bless.
 
it wasn’t particularly true to the original Latin. There was this plan to use more modern everyday language. My understanding is that the Vatican feels it dilluted the awe and mystery present in the mass and diminished faith in the Eucharist. I am sure there will be no shortage of people who feel exactly as you do about the new translation, if for no reason other than it is different. I am happy to go back to something more true to the original Latin. I feel like some of the prayers really lost something in the modernized translations.
 
I feel like some of the prayers really lost something in the modernized translations.
Indeed, certain doctrines were lost. Especially “pro multis” being translated as “for all”. While salvation is achievable by all, we all know that not all achieve it, unfortunate and dearly saddening as this may be.
 
It was a bad translation of the Latin texts of the Mass, and some of the translations are very important to the Catholic and orthodox Doctrine. It really shouldn’t be that hard to learn.

At OP: I think that this whole thing is simply applying a Barney Band-Aid to a huge laceration. Of course, I am grateful that the very important parts have been re-translated correctly. However, I think it will take more than these few changes they’ve made to the translation. In my opinion, this is not so much “better” as it is “less bad”.

God bless.
This of course begs the question of how important it is to be strictly literal to the Latin, given that Latin was a later development in the Church’s worship and only applicable to one of the 20 or so Rites of the Catholic Church.
 
This of course begs the question of how important it is to be strictly literal to the Latin, given that Latin was a later development in the Church’s worship and only applicable to one of the 20 or so Rites of the Catholic Church.
When it comes to the Latin Rite, it is of great importance to translate Latin texts accurately. In the other Rites, if the vernacular is allowed, one would expect it has to be a faithful and accurate translation from that Rite’s language (e.g. Greek).
 
When it comes to the Latin Rite, it is of great importance to translate Latin texts accurately. In the other Rites, if the vernacular is allowed, one would expect it has to be a faithful and accurate translation from that Rite’s language (e.g. Greek).
The “Latin” Rite is defined as such not by language (Latin) but by origin (the See of Rome).
 
This of course begs the question of how important it is to be strictly literal to the Latin, given that Latin was a later development in the Church’s worship and only applicable to one of the 20 or so Rites of the Catholic Church.
You will notice that in every Rite, it is translated as “for many”. Latin *was *a later development in the Church. But it isn’t *that *new. It goes back very far to I believe about 1500 years. By preserving the exact Latin words, we preserve the orthodox Faith. The words were exactly the same then, and by being exactly the same now, the Catholic Faith stays the same now.

The only thing that could be wrong with this is that the Latin translation is a bad translation of the Greek. But it is not.

God bless.
 
The “Latin” Rite is defined as such not by language (Latin) but by origin (the See of Rome).
Yes, the Roman Rite originated in Rome, where the liturgical language was Latin. The Ambrosian and Dominican Rites use Latin as well, being variations of the Roman “theme”.

My point, if I failed it make it clear, is that the liturgical language of the Roman Rite is Latin, and so translations of the Roman Rite into the vernacular should be faithful to the Latin texts.
 
You will notice that in every Rite, it is translated as “for many”. Latin *was *a later development in the Church. But it isn’t *that *new. It goes back very far to I believe about 1500 years. By preserving the exact Latin words, we preserve the orthodox Faith. The words were exactly the same then, and by being exactly the same now, the Catholic Faith stays the same now.

The only thing that could be wrong with this is that the Latin translation is a bad translation of the Greek. But it is not.

God bless.
Our human words, no matter what language, fall far short of adequately expressing our faith (which of course goes back much further than 1500 years).
 
Yes, the Roman Rite originated in Rome, where the liturgical language was Latin. The Ambrosian and Dominican Rites use Latin as well, being variations of the Roman “theme”.

My point, if I failed it make it clear, is that the liturgical language of the Roman Rite is Latin, and so translations of the Roman Rite into the vernacular should be faithful to the Latin texts.
The language at Rome was not Latin until a few centuries following the Apostles.
 
You will notice that in every Rite, it is translated as “for many”. Latin *was *a later development in the Church. But it isn’t *that *new. It goes back very far to I believe about 1500 years. By preserving the exact Latin words, we preserve the orthodox Faith. The words were exactly the same then, and by being exactly the same now, the Catholic Faith stays the same now.

The only thing that could be wrong with this is that the Latin translation is a bad translation of the Greek. But it is not.

God bless.
So you agree that fidelity to the Latin language is not the same as fidelity to the Apostolic tradition, which originated in a non-Latin language?
 
It was a bad translation of the Latin texts of the Mass, and some of the translations are very important to the Catholic and orthodox Doctrine. It really shouldn’t be that hard to learn.

At OP: I think that this whole thing is simply applying a Barney Band-Aid to a huge laceration. Of course, I am grateful that the very important parts have been re-translated correctly. However, I think it will take more than these few changes they’ve made to the translation. In my opinion, this is not so much “better” as it is “less bad”.

God bless.
Thanks for your response.

God Bless
 
The language at Rome was not Latin until a few centuries following the Apostles.
Can you clarify your point for us? How does this respond to Japhy’s statement that “the liturgical language of the Roman Rite is Latin, and so translations of the Roman Rite into the vernacular should be faithful to the Latin texts”?

Or do you disagree that the liturgical language of the Roman Rite is Latin?

VC
 
After reading the posts - particularly as regards varied Spanish, Colombian or Latin American translations - has anyone gotten the same feeling as myself? It hits you between the eyes. ALL THE MORE REASON why Latin should have just stayed in place to begin with. No matter your country of origin / nationality, we all spoke one language during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We didn’t need to be fluent in Latin - just the responses of the Mass in our Missals.

Now, there’s discussion over how a particular nationality has worded their Mass when speaking in their vernacular.

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. For less than an hour a week - we all spoke one language, prayed one prayer, and it didn’t matter where we were born. **For centuries - it was what it was. Now, we have to worry about undoing “40 years”? **
It really makes you think.
You have to face a number of difficulties here. The first one is that the Spanish speaking Catholics make up a much larger number of Catholics than do English speaking Catholics, but they are not as passionate about mass in Latin as are the Europeans and the North Americans.

When I was a missionary in South America one thing that I often heard was their perplexion over the concerns that Americans and Europeans have over the language of the mass. Their focus is on the fidelity to the Latin text, not on the preservation of the Latin mass. They want their mass in Spanish and they do not want the Spanish of their neighbors imposed on them, either in prayer or in daily use. From their perspective, the return to the universal use of Latin is an issue of the Northern Hemisphere which they prefer to stand back and watch to see how it develops.

YOu have to undestand, the Catholic Church in Latin America is not in the same crisis as the Catholic Church in Europe and North America. While it is true that there are many new Protestant communities in Latin America, it has to do with the material resources that the Protestants have brought to the developing nations, not to the liturgical life. When you live in countries where your safety is not guarranteed and your rights are subject to the whim of dictators and corrupt politicians, many of whom are connected with Northern Hemisphere multinational corporations, you can’t expect them to feel much sympathy for the same concerns of Catholics in the northern hemisphere.

On the other hand, they have had an increase in vocations to the religious life, new religious congregations being born annually, one of the largest and most active Catholic youth movements in history and a bond between Catholics and Protestants against North American and European Christians.

Catholics of the northern hemisphere are going to have to prove themselves to Catholics of the southern hemisphere, especially in South America and Africa. Their pespective of us is that we’re not interested in their issues, because we do not experience their hardship to live in peace and to make economic and technical progress. To them the Holy Father’s recent encyclical is more important than the translation of the preservation of the Latin mass.

The few places where they have the Latin mass it is appreciated, but there is a strong sense of balance that does not exist in the USA regarding this issue. The seem much more comfortable with an EF and OF side by side. Even the issue of a Spanish missal in US Spanish is something that their bishops, scholars and educators welcome, because they appreciate the fact that the USA is a bilingual country with its own Spanish language. They think it’s laughable that the people of the USA still insist that we are an English only society. From their perspective, it’s a silly argument, because the numbers and the facts prove that we’re not an English only nation, but we are really a bilingual nation.

I don’t think that the idea of turning all masses back to Latin is going to go over well in Catholic Hispanic America, especially if it comes from the USA or from Europe. The one Christian country that seems to have the trust of the Latin American Catholics is Italy. There is very little love between South America and Spain. Some memories are long lasting.

This is not as simple as eliminating the modern languages from the liturgy. My speculation is that this would be counter productive among this population. This is a population that is very suspicious of quick fixes from the north. It is best that non Hispanic Catholics not meddle in the internal affairs of the Catholic Church in Hispanic America, both Latin and USA, especially when the Protestants offer them freedom from old systems that were once very oppressive. This is not an easy situation. The bishop are right in wanting to give them a missal that is their own.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
 
So you agree that fidelity to the Latin language is not the same as fidelity to the Apostolic tradition, which originated in a non-Latin language?
You are right. Human words cannot fully describe God. However, we must use language to describe the true faith as best we can. Unless of course you have some other option. 😛

But yeah, of course Latin is not an absolute necessity to carry on the Apostolic Tradition. The Eastern Churches do it all of the time. I don’t think a single Eastern Catholic Church uses Latin. However, I would argue that the use of Latin is greatly beneficial to the Church (as would any teaching authority from before the 1960s argue as well), and I honestly feel it is sad that a 1500 year old tradition was lost without a peep.

Peace.
 
Our human words … fall far short of adequately expressing our faith
I disagree. Our human words fall short of fully expressing our faith, but our human words can adequately express our faith, to varying degrees. The human words employed in Scripture, for example, were described as “apt” by Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus: “finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth.” I would say “apt” as at least as good as “adequate”.

I would definitely go so far as to say that the dogmatic definitions of the faith – in Latin and Greek – are at least adequate to express the truth they are conveying.
 
Can you clarify your point for us? How does this respond to Japhy’s statement that “*the liturgical language of the Roman Rite is *Latin, and so translations of the Roman Rite into the vernacular should be faithful to the Latin texts”?

Or do you disagree that the liturgical language of the Roman Rite is Latin?

VC
I celebrate the Roman Rite and never use Latin.

The Church in Rome did not always use Latin.

Those are my points.
 
Indeed, certain doctrines were lost. Especially “pro multis” being translated as “for all”. While salvation is achievable by all, we all know that not all achieve it, unfortunate and dearly saddening as this may be.
And for forty years, the Church and most theologians defended the “for all” vigorously. There are tons of websites still defending it. Will this change force a lot of website closings? More importantly, what do those theologians say now, that the Church can change its teachings?

Personally I think this is all much ado about nothing. Vatican II said nothing about all-vernacular all-the-time. Vatican II said that Latin should be preserved in the liturgy.
 
And for forty years, the Church and most theologians defended the “for all” vigorously. There are tons of websites still defending it. Will this change force a lot of website closings? More importantly, what do those theologians say now, that the Church can change its teachings?
I honestly believe there is a reason why every liturgical translation in English uses “for many”. Look at any Eastern Church’s liturgy, you will see that it is “for many”. Namely, it is because this is the correct translation.

The Church never defended it. Maybe the US bishops did, but certainly not the Church. There is truly a reason why it is being changed now.
 
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