The "reform of the reform" and EF-OF cross-enrichment

[malphono]

The following is from another current thread, and is what spurred me to start this one.

It’s surprising how many people here claim their Novus Ordo is as reverent as any TLM. If this is true then I wonder why the Pope and senior clergy keep talking about a ‘reform of the reform’.

The idea of “cross-enrichment” between the EF and OF is implicit in Summorum Pontificum (and is a bit more explicit in the accompanying letter to the bishops), and it leads me to ask opinions on (a) how a real (meaning widespread or “universal”) “reform of the reform” of the OF might be achieved, and (b) how the EF and OF and can enrich each other. It seems to me that the two things go hand-in-hand.

At this point, I think it’s necessary to say that the intent of this thread is not to get into another of the endless “mine is better than yours” discussions. Nor is it the intent that it be yet one more thread on “abuses” in either the OF or the EF, or a discussion of the SSPX, or a discussion of “reverence” (those who read my posts already know that I consider the issue of “reverence” to be relative). The matter of liturgical language-vs-vernacular is implicit in the thread (the Council and the oft-cited Veterum Sapientiae are clear enough that the use of Latin in the Roman Church is to be retained), but again, it is not the intent that the thread devolve into the usual “mine is better than yours” rhetoric.

As long as everyone plays nicely, this could be thought provoking and fun at the same time. I was going to post a few ideas as teasers, but decided to leave it as a blank slate. Anyone interested in coming up to the board?

 

[Ockham]

If the OF returned to Ad Orientum on a high altar that would be a good start. People participating at the EF need to pay attention and not return to the practice of saying rosaries during Mass.

 

[malphono]

If the OF returned to Ad Orientum on a high altar that would be a good start.

Yes, I happen to agree (well, no secret there ) …

To quote the Sound of Music: “begin at the very beginning, a very good place to start” …

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Also as those from the sixties and seventies retire and new preist and bishops come in they tend to be more by the book and the reform of the reform will happen. We laiety do need to make know how much we want the tradition back.

 

[Pregustator]

I do think both forms could benefit each other insofar as the pre-Vatican II liturgy was in need of some reform. That reform was happening before Vatican II, however, with the introduction of “Dialogue Mass”, reformed rubrics for the faithful, and permissions to read the Epistle and Gospel in English at the altar.

The post-Vatican II liturgy gives us the opportunity for greater participation by allowing the Mass to be celebrated in languages that we in the pews actually speak and understand. It allows for greater freedom with respect to music, as well. But for some reason, alot of the reverence and solemnity evaporated, and the presentation of the liturgy, in many cases, became almost desacralized.

The typical presentation of Mass before Vatican II, on the other hand, was highly sacralized, but enabled little participation by the congregation. Many whispered low Masses were attended by people who buried their faces in novena books, or who were clicking away their rosaries, ignoring the Mass, altogether.

After Vatican II, we have a liturgical culture that makes actual participation at Mass the norm and standard, not an exception. And that’s a marvelous thing. When we go to Mass, we ought to participate in the liturgy. In the old days, Catholics even spoke about going to Church to “hear Mass”. Bad as that sounds, it wasn’t even accurate, as Mass was mostly inaudible. Today we respond, we sing, we pray with the celebrant.

So I think that the “EF” can greatly benefit by allowing the celebration to shed itself of the museum-like qualities we insist upon ladening it with today, as if the “EF” must only be celebrated completely in Latin, with baroque externals: fiddleback chasubles, lace albs, and birettas.

On the other hand, the “OF” can be enriched by the solemnity and inherent reverence that the “EF” seems to symbolize.

It’s kind of like chocolate vs. peanut butter, really, or cheese vs. crackers. How much better when you put them together? Too bad we couldn’t keep the good things about each, slap them together, and let the resulting liturgy become our “ordinary form”.

I suspect that if Pope Paul VI had never issued his new missal, this would have happened to the Tridentine Mass. That’s the direction things were headed in before Vatican II happened. If things had not been changed so drastically at Vatican II, the Tridentine liturgy would have continued to reform itself, and it would look, sound, and feel rather different in 2010 than it did in, say, 1962.

 

[malphono]

If things had not been changed so drastically at Vatican II, the Tridentine liturgy would have continued to reform itself, and it would look, sound, and feel rather different in 2010 than it did in, say, 1962.

Undoubtedly there would have continued to be organic change. If that had actually happened (which it did not), how different things would be in 2010, though, is strictly a matter of conjecture.

That said, I have to note that nothing was drastically changed by the Council. The rupture came after the Council when the dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” was off and running amok.

 

[ProVobis]

In the old days, Catholics even spoke about going to Church to “hear Mass”. Bad as that sounds, it wasn’t even accurate, as Mass was mostly inaudible.

Still is but it depends on where you sit or who the priest is. In a Low Mass anyway. The High Mass typically has the choir drown out what the priest says so it’s really a moot point as to the inaudibility of the Mass itself for the most part. Same can happen in the OF; many times the Offertory prayers are barely noticed. I’ve never heard anyone complain about that.

Interestingly, most people who attend the EF (where I go anyway) choose to avoid sitting in the front pews. (And that’s an understatement.) So it must not bother them that much not to be able to hear every word of the priest. The rubrics (genuflections, bowing, kissing, signs of cross, etc.) should be generally enough to let the pew member know what’s being said, at least if he’s a seasoned Latin Mass goer.

 

[ConstantineTG]

From my experience attending the Divine Liturgy, its a pretty good example of a Mass that is:

a. very traditional
b. in the vernacular
c. reverent
d. lots of participation from the laity

I think those are the main contentions between the OF and EF sides. Traditionalists claim lack of reverence in the OF and also a very modern Mass. Non-traditional Catholics do not want to bother with Latin or the lack of participation in the Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

If the OF returned to Ad Orientum on a high altar that would be a good start.

No one has asked this yet but wouldn’t that be a problem for those who want to hear the priest better? From a lot of the comments in favor of the new Mass here, it seems most like to see and hear the priest talking to them. Harder to understand someone with his back to you, I would think.

Just playing the devil’s advocate here, of course.

 

[countertenor]

Considering most priests (at least in the US) now use microphones, it doesn’t matter what direction they face, when it comes to hearing them.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No one has asked this yet but wouldn’t that be a problem for those who want to hear the priest better? From a lot of the comments in favor of the new Mass here, it seems most like to see and hear the priest talking to them. Harder to understand someone with his back to you, I would think.

Just playing the devil’s advocate here, of course.

Thats what a mic is for

 

[archangel04]

No one has asked this yet but wouldn’t that be a problem for those who want to hear the priest better? From a lot of the comments in favor of the new Mass here, it seems most like to see and hear the priest talking to them. Harder to understand someone with his back to you, I would think.

Just playing the devil’s advocate here, of course.

Don’t most parishes have microphones and speakers? Even if they don’t they must be small churches where I am sure it would be easy to hear regardless where the priest faces.

 

[ProVobis]

Don’t most parishes have microphones and speakers? Even if they don’t they must be small churches where I am sure it would be easy to hear regardless where the priest faces.

I’m not a fan of microphones as many of them are garbled. I’ve even suggested once to a EF priest at a local chapel perhaps because of the electronic feedback, he could shut it off.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m not a fan of microphones as many of them are garbled. I’ve even suggested once to a EF priest at a local chapel perhaps because of the electronic feedback, he could shut it off.

Then a parish must invest on good equipment and a knowledgable person to set it up. Its not that difficult provided the person knows what he/she is doing. I remember in the past where most mics were used were those big ones with the wires and the mic stands. Now parishes that can afford it go wireless and with even smaller mics so as its not as obvious the priest is wearing one. No feedbacks, no garbles.

Although I understand your situation. Back in the Philippines because people are poor and therefore collections in the parishes are not that much despite the numbers of Catholics, busted speakers take years to get replaced. You’ll notice what kind of neighborhood you are in by the quality of the church equipment. I sometimes go to this parish which is located in the upscale neighborhood of the metropolis. The parish is airconditioned and has state of the art equipment. But a properly setup equipment can last a long time.

 

[ProVobis]

Don’t most parishes have microphones and speakers? Even if they don’t they must be small churches where I am sure it would be easy to hear regardless where the priest faces.

I’m not a fan of microphones as many of them are garbled. I’ve even suggested once to a EF priest at a local chapel perhaps because of the electronic feedback, he could shut it off. Never heard a microphone in classrooms; why do we need them in small chapels?

 

[BernadetteM]

What some of you are describing is exactly what the Anglican Use Mass is. Very reverent, beautiful music, full participation of the congregation, in the vernacular, although they do use some Latin at times.

Once the Ordinariates are established I think more Catholics will be very interested in attending. Hopefully there will be at least one or two in areas where people can drive within a reasonable amount of time.

I think that is one reason that th Holy Father wants the Ordinariate, as the liturgy is neither the EF or OF, but a wonderful combination of the two. Of course Rome is working on an updated liturgy and hopefully it will be from the Anglican Missal with the Sarum/ Gregorian Canon which is used at the Anglican Use parishes now. It is very similar to the EF, but the members are very involved with the prayers and hymns etc.

Also the parishes are very orthodox, there are no liberal teachings during the homilies.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[ConstantineTG]

Interesting. I’ve never been to an Anglican Use Mass or any Anglican Liturgy. There is a TAC parish somewhere in my metropolis who would be coming to the Church. I’m awaiting the word on the Orinariate and once communion is finalized, I’m going there for Mass to experience it.

The updated Liturgy is just a more accurate translation of the Roman Missal. Its the same everything in the OF with updated words. I haven’t read anything about an updated GIRM

 

[BernadetteM]

Interesting. I’ve never been to an Anglican Use Mass or any Anglican Liturgy. There is a TAC parish somewhere in my metropolis who would be coming to the Church. I’m awaiting the word on the Orinariate and once communion is finalized, I’m going there for Mass to experience it.

The updated Liturgy is just a more accurate translation of the Roman Missal. Its the same everything in the OF with updated words. I haven’t read anything about an updated GIRM

Out of curiosity, which state do you live in? There are several parishes in different states interested in joining and once the Ordinariate is established I hope more who are not ready might also join. Not all TAC/ACA parishes are coming and three of their Bishops backed out after signing on. Of course there are reasons other than spiritual that are involved in some people’s decisions, which is too bad.

I will be attending a meeting at a parish who is deciding on whether to join or not. It is my former parish and my prayer is that they do decide. At least Rome has put the offer out and those who said they wanted to be part of the Church, now must walk the walk or stop talking the talk.

Oh by the way if your interested in seeing an Anglican Use Mass on the web (as I said the liturgy will be changed once the Ordinariates are in place, hopefully following the Missal) you can to to Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church, San Antonio, TX and watch the whole Mass. You can hit Full so that it is larger, but it is more grainy. At least you can get an idea of some of the Anglican traditions, of course Rome added things from the Latin Rite and some from the BCP and the priests have had to make the best of it. There is a place to click the video on, the first video is the norm for Sundays.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ConstantineTG]

Out of curiosity, which state do you live in? There are several parishes in different states interested in joining and once the Ordinariate is established I hope more who are not ready might also join. Not all TAC/ACA parishes are coming and three of their Bishops backed out after signing on. Of course there are reasons other than spiritual that are involved in some people’s decisions, which is too bad.

I will be attending a meeting at a parish who is deciding on whether to join or not. It is my former parish and my prayer is that they do decide. At least Rome has put the offer out and those who said they wanted to be part of the Church, now must walk the walk or stop talking the talk.

Oh by the way if your interested in seeing an Anglican Use Mass on the web (as I said the liturgy will be changed once the Ordinariates are in place, hopefully following the Missal) you can to to Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church, San Antonio, TX and watch the whole Mass. You can hit Full so that it is larger, but it is more grainy. At least you can get an idea of some of the Anglican traditions, of course Rome added things from the Latin Rite and some from the BCP and the priests have had to make the best of it. There is a place to click the video on, the first video is the norm for Sundays.

God Bless

Bernadette

I live in Canada. At present there are no Anglican Use Masses here

 

[BernadetteM]

I live in Canada. At present there are no Anglican Use Masses here

If you go to the Anglo Catholic website there are a few from Canada who are coming in. One woman Deborah is very invovled. She would know where their are parishes interested in Canada.

God Bless

Bernadette