The "reform of the reform" and EF-OF cross-enrichment

[OraLabora]

If anyone wants to see how the EF can cross-fertilize the OF, look no farther than any Mass at an abbey of the Solesmes Congregation using the OF. Well, it isn’t really “cross-fertilization”, it is celebration of the OF as it was intended to be. At the abbey I am affiliated with, in Quebec, the Mass is as such:

Propers in Latin Gregorian chant (Introit, gradual, alleluia, offertory and communion antiphon)
Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Angus in Latin Gregorian chant)
All prayers, penitential rite and responses chanted in the vernacular (in this case French)
Readings chanted in the vernacular
Homily read in the vernacular
Universal prayer chanted and responses in the vernacular
Preface, Eucharistic Prayer chanted in the vernacular
Pater chanted in the vernacular
Dismissal chanted in the vernacular.

On weekdays, of course, no Gloria (unless a feast or solemnity), no homily and the intercessions are recited. The rest, as above (with a simpler tone for the Pater).

Incense and bells are used on Sundays, Feasts and Solemnities. The only musical instrument is the pipe organ, played before the introit, during the offertory after the hymn, and after dismissal as an exit procession. The organ is silent during Advent and Lent, except for, as is the tradition, Gaudete and Laetare Sundays.

The Propers and ordinary are from the Graduale Romanum. Since the reforms of Vatican II they have been arranged to match the new liturgical calendar.

So instead of tossing out the Church’s deep traditions, they have been preserved and adapted to the new calendar and order of the Mass. It is all very reverent.

I surmise that if this were done across the board (with perhaps the Propers translated into vernacular plainchant for general use; I’ve heard it done in French and the result was quite good), complaints about the OF would diminish greatly.

In Montreal there are also a couple of places where a very reverent OF Mass is celebrated with sacred polyphony as the music (Notre Dame Basilica to name one). There is also a nun’s abbey near Montreal of the Solesmes congregation that does the Mass exactly as at my abbey, except that twice a week they do it entirely in Latin, but in the OF.

Thanks for this but I noticed you left out the “for all” in the Consecration. I imagine they would want that changed.

Also the Church seems to have a problem with the translation of “consubstantialem (Patri)” in the liturgy, not a light matter. In the new translation they are basically latinizing it as “consubstantial.”

con (with, together)
+sub (under)
+stantis, past participle of “stare,” to stand

“one in being” is wrong; “one in substance” seems to be too vague. Is “substance” really the best 2010 word that can be used here?

This is more an issue with the bad English translation, it’s less of an issue in other languages, but there will always be translation issues alas; some things just don’t render well in other languages.

 

[Pregustator]

I never much cared for fiddlebacks, but they’re a sight better than the felt and polyester things that became fashionable in the post-conciliar era, and are still alive and well today. And BTW, I know lots of clergy who wear lace albs and birettas for the OF.

I’m surprised to hear that you have encountered alot of priests who dress that way at “OF” Masses. I, on the other hand, do not think that I have ever seen a biretta used at an “OF” Mass. I have seen a fiddleback used at once, and that only happened because I, the sacristan, laid it out for a priest who actually went ahead and wore it…to my astonishment.

It isn’t that I do not care for the Roman style (“fiddleback”) vestments, I think they’re lovely, in fact. I just meant that one shouldn’t always insist upon celebrating the “EF” using externals that were manufactured prior to Vatican II and making the Mass look like and feel like 1950.

There are plenty of beautiful liturgical vestments of quality available today that can be purchased; they aren’t all polyester ponchos with peace symbols. Not every “EF” needs to look as though its external elements were all furnished via Ebay.

I think that the vestments typically seen at both the “OF” and the “EF” leave something to be desired. In both cases, the vestments tend to look dated. The “EF” vestments remind one of the 50s, whereas the “OF” vestments often take one back to the 70s. In the case of the celebrants of both forms of Mass, their sacristies need some sprucing up, I think. Whether celebrating the “EF” or the “OF”, sacred vestments should be worthy garments of good materials, timeless of design, elegant to behold.

 

[ProVobis]

This is more an issue with the bad English translation, it’s less of an issue in other languages, but there will always be translation issues alas; some things just don’t render well in other languages.

I agree with this having done numerous Polish translations just for my relatives.

I’m of the mathematical school that says perfect (100%) translations using words which have multiple meanings are impossible.

And then there are more than simple verbal meanings that are involved in perfect understandings, such as moods and contexts. Maybe it’s better to leave a little of that mystery and poetic beauty in the original.

Even the Latin Mass left the Kyrie Eleison alone.

 

[BernadetteM]

Thanks for this but I noticed you left out the “for all” in the Consecration. I imagine they would want that changed.

Also the Church seems to have a problem with the translation of “consubstantialem (Patri)” in the liturgy, not a light matter. In the new translation they are basically latinizing it as “consubstantial.”

con (with, together)
+sub (under)
+stantis, past participle of “stare,” to stand

“one in being” is wrong; “one in substance” seems to be too vague. Is “substance” really the best 2010 word that can be used here?

I can’t answer about “for all”, I was just looking up certain prayers, but I also looked up on the web for the original Creed and it says “one in substance”. I would contact an AU priest about “for all”, but I have e-mailed about another posters questions several times and he is a very busy priest. He has 2000 members and a school from K-12, plus I think he is sometimes on a Catholic radio station and he does so many things that I don’t dare contact him again. He will be out here in December to speak to Anglicans about coming into the Ordinariate and if I remember I will ask him. He is an expert, one the greatest priests I know.

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

ProVobis,

I found the answer to your question. I just didn’t post the whole Canon.

Re: Chalice of our Lord’s Blood

Likewise after supper, taking also this goodly chalice into his holy and venerable hands, again giving thanks to thee, he blessed, and gave it to his disciples, saying:

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT:

THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,

THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.

IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL

SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN

DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

The word ALL may be changed to MANY, I don’t know yet.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ProVobis]

Bernadette, thanks. And thanks for the research.

 

[VetA]

Not at Low Mass. At Low Mass vernacular hyms are permitted and have tended to be the norm, from my experience. My problem is that, at your typical “EF” celebration, the choir seems to have a repertory of about six hymns, all from great-grandma’s time, few of them any good. Again, the whole “time warp” thing.

vernacular is also able to be used for the entrance and recessional hymns in any TLM

 

[VetA]

“Amazing Grace,” “O Mighty Fortress,” “Hail Redeemer” inter alia go back aways too.

amazing grace is not catholic and should not be used at catholic Masses

 

[laszlo]

Not at Low Mass. At Low Mass vernacular hyms are permitted and have tended to be the norm, from my experience. My problem is that, at your typical “EF” celebration, the choir seems to have a repertory of about six hymns, all from great-grandma’s time, few of them any good. Again, the whole “time warp” thing.

In Hungary since the 16th Century vernacular hymns were sung during the Mass, even during the Missa Cantata. This set of hymns was the first approved by the Apostolic See after Vatican II, and those are used for the New Mass too.

 

[ProVobis]

Check out this eye-opener:

Fr. Bugnini’s defense of Mass antiphons against vernacular hymns

wdtprs.com/blog/2009/04/fr-bugninis-defense-of-mass-antiphons-against-vernacular-hymns/

 

[BernadetteM]

Bernadette, thanks. And thanks for the research.

Your very welcome. Pray for the Ordinariates and that Rome will allow them a liturgy closer to one of the Missals.

Bernadette

 

[Pregustator]

amazing grace is not catholic and should not be used at catholic Masses

Ah, now there’s one point I will disagree with, and this is one way in which the practices of the celebration of the “OF” can enrich the celebration of “EF”. As far as English Language hymns go, the Protestants have the Catholics beat by a mile; I don’t think there’s much disputing that. As a result, one hears many hymns at Sunday Mass that were written by Protestants, and frankly, I’ll take those classic Protestant hymns over most any of the Catholic English language hymns written during the last 60 years, any day.

Given the choice between such “Protestant” hymns as, say, “Jerusalem”, “Come Thou Almighty King”, “The King of Love My Shepherd Is”, or “Lo! He Comes With Clouds Descending” and such Catholic standards as “On Eagle’s Wings”, “Jesus My Lord, My God, My All”, “Here I Am, Lord”, “Gift of Finest Wheat” and worse, I’ll side squarely in favour of letting the Protestants own our hymnology.

Who cares, in any case, what the religion of an artist is provided his art is beyond reproach? If a Protestant has written music suitable for Catholic public worship, should we favour the works of less talented artists who happen to be Roman Catholic? Should we deprive ourselves of, say, the Masses and works of Bach, Handel, Purcell, Gibbons, Taverner, Vaughn Williams, &c, &c, &c, but embrace far less worthy hymns and works composed by Catholic artists? Ralph Vaugh Williams vs. Marty Haugen: you choose.

Catholic English hymns are garbage, for the most part. And I think we all need to get this idea out of our heads that if a hymn is written by a Protestant, that it is necessarily, therefore, a “Protestant Hymn”. Many Protestants have written many hymns and other works that are Catholic, through and through.

“Amazing Grace” isn’t one of my favorites, to be sure. But let’s not anathematize every piece of beautiful music written by non-Catholic hands.

 

[malphono]

“Amazing Grace” isn’t one of my favorites, to be sure. But let’s not anathematize every piece of beautiful music written by non-Catholic hands.

There have been several threads about that particular hymn. Two worth noting are [thread=479451]here[/thread] and [thread=388286]here[/thread]. Might be worth a look.

 

[OraLabora]

Ah, now there’s one point I will disagree with, and this is one way in which the practices of the celebration of the “OF” can enrich the celebration of “EF”. As far as English Language hymns go, the Protestants have the Catholics beat by a mile; I don’t think there’s much disputing that. As a result, one hears many hymns at Sunday Mass that were written by Protestants, and frankly, I’ll take those classic Protestant hymns over most any of the Catholic English language hymns written during the last 60 years, any day.

Given the choice between such “Protestant” hymns as, say, “Jerusalem”, “Come Thou Almighty King”, “The King of Love My Shepherd Is”, or “Lo! He Comes With Clouds Descending” and such Catholic standards as “On Eagle’s Wings”, “Jesus My Lord, My God, My All”, “Here I Am, Lord”, “Gift of Finest Wheat” and worse, I’ll side squarely in favour of letting the Protestants own our hymnology.

Who cares, in any case, what the religion of an artist is provided his art is beyond reproach? If a Protestant has written music suitable for Catholic public worship, should we favour the works of less talented artists who happen to be Roman Catholic? Should we deprive ourselves of, say, the Masses and works of Bach, Handel, Purcell, Gibbons, Taverner, Vaughn Williams, &c, &c, &c, but embrace far less worthy hymns and works composed by Catholic artists? Ralph Vaugh Williams vs. Marty Haugen: you choose.

Catholic English hymns are garbage, for the most part. And I think we all need to get this idea out of our heads that if a hymn is written by a Protestant, that it is necessarily, therefore, a “Protestant Hymn”. Many Protestants have written many hymns and other works that are Catholic, through and through.

“Amazing Grace” isn’t one of my favorites, to be sure. But let’s not anathematize every piece of beautiful music written by non-Catholic hands.

Probably the previous poster was referring to certain aspects of Amazing Grace that are not compatible with Catholic theology. I’m not familiar with what the issues are but I remember reading on CAF that there are some issues with the hymn with regard to proper theology.

In Catholic tradition, hymns are associated with the Divine Office and not the Mass. Interestingly, the purpose of the hymn in the Divine Office was often to provide a brief theological lesson. While I am lukewarm to hymns at all in the Divine Office except perhaps at the Offertory, I would object most strenuously to any hymn that is theologically suspect.

 

[Pregustator]

I would object most strenuously to any hymn that is theologically suspect

As would I, as should anyone, of course. I only mean to say that not all those marvelous “Protestant Hymns” actually reflect Protestant theology. Of that huge and famed hymnology, those hymns that pose no concerns ought not be dismissed just because a Protestant wrote them. That’s all I mean to say; I’m not defending any particular hymn, certainly not “Amazing Grace”. Can’t stand it, to be honest.

 

[malphono]

As would I, as should anyone, of course. I only mean to say that not all those marvelous “Protestant Hymns” actually reflect Protestant theology. Of that huge and famed hymnology, those hymns that pose no concerns ought not be dismissed just because a Protestant wrote them. That’s all I mean to say; I’m not defending any particular hymn, certainly not “Amazing Grace”. Can’t stand it, to be honest.

Yet the post was directed to a comment about that very hymn.

Pregustator;7159064:

amazing grace is not catholic and should not be used at catholic Masses

… “Amazing Grace” isn’t one of my favorites, to be sure. But let’s not anathematize every piece of beautiful music written by non-Catholic hands.

In any case, one problem I have with the “great repertoire” of Protestant Hymns is that, in many (if not most) cases, they do reflect heretical Protestant theology. Another problem for me (and this is more a matter of taste than anything else), is that I’m not fond of the tone (or style, or whatever one wants to call it) of most such hymns. The only way I can describe it is to say that they are simply too … well … “Protestant” sounding.

Nonetheless, IMHO, I don’t think the addition or inclusion of Protestant hymns, irrespective of their doctrinal content, is really any part of the answer to the “reform of the reform” of the OF, or EF-OF cross-enrichment.

 

[VetA]

Ah, now there’s one point I will disagree with, and this is one way in which the practices of the celebration of the “OF” can enrich the celebration of “EF”. As far as English Language hymns go, the Protestants have the Catholics beat by a mile; I don’t think there’s much disputing that. As a result, one hears many hymns at Sunday Mass that were written by Protestants, and frankly, I’ll take those classic Protestant hymns over most any of the Catholic English language hymns written during the last 60 years, any day.

Given the choice between such “Protestant” hymns as, say, “Jerusalem”, “Come Thou Almighty King”, “The King of Love My Shepherd Is”, or “Lo! He Comes With Clouds Descending” and such Catholic standards as “On Eagle’s Wings”, “Jesus My Lord, My God, My All”, “Here I Am, Lord”, “Gift of Finest Wheat” and worse, I’ll side squarely in favour of letting the Protestants own our hymnology.

Who cares, in any case, what the religion of an artist is provided his art is beyond reproach? If a Protestant has written music suitable for Catholic public worship, should we favour the works of less talented artists who happen to be Roman Catholic? Should we deprive ourselves of, say, the Masses and works of Bach, Handel, Purcell, Gibbons, Taverner, Vaughn Williams, &c, &c, &c, but embrace far less worthy hymns and works composed by Catholic artists? Ralph Vaugh Williams vs. Marty Haugen: you choose.

Catholic English hymns are garbage, for the most part. And I think we all need to get this idea out of our heads that if a hymn is written by a Protestant, that it is necessarily, therefore, a “Protestant Hymn”. Many Protestants have written many hymns and other works that are Catholic, through and through.

“Amazing Grace” isn’t one of my favorites, to be sure. But let’s not anathematize every piece of beautiful music written by non-Catholic hands.

Tantum Ergo, Hail Redeemer King Divine, Praise to the Holiest in the Hight, Shepard Me O God, Full in the Panting Heart of Rome, God of Mercy and Compassion, Jesus Christ is Risen Today, Ave Maria, O Sacred Heart, the Prayer of St. Francis, the Fragrance Prayer, I am the Bread of Life, and Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones**>** Amazing Grace

they are also Orthodoxy as compared to AG.

i will explain further but i have class now

 

[OraLabora]

Yet the post was directed to a comment about that very hymn.

In any case, one problem I have with the “great repertoire” of Protestant Hymns is that, in many (if not most) cases, they do reflect heretical Protestant theology. Another problem for me (and this is more a matter of taste than anything else), is that I’m not fond of the tone (or style, or whatever one wants to call it) of most such hymns. The only way I can describe it is to say that they are simply too … well … “Protestant” sounding.

Nonetheless, IMHO, I don’t think the addition or inclusion of Protestant hymns, irrespective of their doctrinal content, is really any part of the answer to the “reform of the reform” of the OF, or EF-OF cross-enrichment.

We’ll probably need to get used to them though, as the Anglican Use parishes that swim the Tiber are likely to retain good number of them in their liturgy!

That said, we do have our tradition in the Roman rite, and that’s the Propers in Gregorian chant, or sacred polyphony. Hymns, IMHO, belong to the Divine Office, not the Mass.

 

[malphono]

We’ll probably need to get used to them though, as the Anglican Use parishes that swim the Tiber are likely to retain good number of them in their liturgy!

Which is fine and dandy, since those things are part of their tradition. But the Anglican Use is neither the EF nor the OF, nor should it be. It represents a rather unique Western liturgical tradition in its own right, the uniqueness of which the Church sees fit to acknowledge.

That said, we do have our tradition in the Roman rite, and that’s the Propers in Gregorian chant, or sacred polyphony.

Yes, of course. The fact is, though, that outside of monasteries and conventual Masses in certain non-monastic religious communities, the use of full chant is (and has been for ages) exceedingly rare. In parish practice, it was common for various hymns (not in the strict liturgical sense of the word, and whether “classically” polyphonic or (more often) just simple hymns) to be sung for the processional, during the Offertory, during communion, etc.

Hymns, IMHO, belong to the Divine Office, not the Mass.

In the strict liturgical sense, yes, I agree.

 

[MarkThompson]

Who cares, in any case, what the religion of an artist is provided his art is beyond reproach? If a Protestant has written music suitable for Catholic public worship, should we favour the works of less talented artists who happen to be Roman Catholic? Should we deprive ourselves of, say, the Masses and works of Bach, Handel, Purcell, Gibbons, Taverner, Vaughn Williams, &c, &c, &c, but embrace far less worthy hymns and works composed by Catholic artists? Ralph Vaugh Williams vs. Marty Haugen: you choose.

FWIW, Marty Haugen is (and I forget which) a Lutheran or a member of the United Church of Christ, and has never been a Catholic. Of course, many other allegedly “traditional” hymns (did I hear someone mention Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones?) are also by thoroughgoing Protestants.