The "reform of the reform" and EF-OF cross-enrichment

[jordananglo]

Ah, now there’s one point I will disagree with, and this is one way in which the practices of the celebration of the “OF” can enrich the celebration of “EF”. As far as English Language hymns go, the Protestants have the Catholics beat by a mile; I don’t think there’s much disputing that. As a result, one hears many hymns at Sunday Mass that were written by Protestants, and frankly, I’ll take those classic Protestant hymns over most any of the Catholic English language hymns written during the last 60 years, any day.

Given the choice between such “Protestant” hymns as, say, “Jerusalem”, “Come Thou Almighty King”, “The King of Love My Shepherd Is”, or “Lo! He Comes With Clouds Descending” and such Catholic standards as “On Eagle’s Wings”, “Jesus My Lord, My God, My All”, “Here I Am, Lord”, “Gift of Finest Wheat” and worse, I’ll side squarely in favour of letting the Protestants own our hymnology.

Who cares, in any case, what the religion of an artist is provided his art is beyond reproach? If a Protestant has written music suitable for Catholic public worship, should we favour the works of less talented artists who happen to be Roman Catholic? Should we deprive ourselves of, say, the Masses and works of Bach, Handel, Purcell, Gibbons, Taverner, Vaughn Williams, &c, &c, &c, but embrace far less worthy hymns and works composed by Catholic artists? Ralph Vaugh Williams vs. Marty Haugen: you choose.

Catholic English hymns are garbage, for the most part. And I think we all need to get this idea out of our heads that if a hymn is written by a Protestant, that it is necessarily, therefore, a “Protestant Hymn”. Many Protestants have written many hymns and other works that are Catholic, through and through.

“Amazing Grace” isn’t one of my favorites, to be sure. But let’s not anathematize every piece of beautiful music written by non-Catholic hands.

Pregustator, you’re going to make a fine Anglican Use Catholic. Yes, the hymns alone are worth shedding blood over. No matter how sympathetic I am to Catholic liturgy, every time I attend an OF mass at a typical suburban parish, I get depressed. Usually the preaching is fine, and the service is tolerable to ok, but gosh, that music, with the “song leader” just do me in. Mind you, I know that these are sincere, God loving people that seem to be happy with what they have got, but rather than drawing me into “active participation”, it shuts me down every time. No wonder nobody sings!

 

[Ockham]

No matter how sympathetic I am to Catholic liturgy, every time I attend an OF mass at a typical suburban parish, I get depressed. Usually the preaching is fine, and the service is tolerable to ok, but gosh, that music, with the “song leader” just do me in.

What is your opinion of Gregorian Chant?

 

[ProVobis]

Mind you, I know that these are sincere, God loving people that seem to be happy with what they have got, but rather than drawing me into “active participation”, it shuts me down every time. No wonder nobody sings!

Maybe because no one understands it?

I’m not posting this because it’s funny but to show the fallacy of thinking certain types of good-sounding music makes the best worship. A 10-yr older probably would have an entirely different understanding of the hymn as the subtitles might be what he hears.

youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZnPE3G_YY

 

[jordananglo]

What is your opinion of Gregorian Chant?

I love Gregorian chant. I am quite at home in the EF. It has the same liturgical spirit as you find in Anglo-Catholic or Orthodox churches. I think that the Anglican Ordinariate parishes will be natural allies with the traditionalist RCs. I will go further and say that mass in the vernacular should not be “street language”, but should be sacral and hieratic. In this sense, using Tudor English is more fitting for worship in anglophone churches. That is analogous to how the Latin was originally used in Christian worship.

 

[Ockham]

I love Gregorian chant. I am quite at home in the EF. It has the same liturgical spirit as you find in Anglo-Catholic or Orthodox churches. I think that the Anglican Ordinariate parishes will be natural allies with the traditionalist RCs. I will go further and say that mass in the vernacular should not be “street language”, but should be sacral and hieratic. In this sense, using Tudor English is more fitting for worship in anglophone churches. That is analogous to how the Latin was originally used in Christian worship.

Sorry for my confusion, but by Anglo-Catholic do you mean Traditional Anglican Communion?

 

[ProVobis]

In this sense, using Tudor English is more fitting for worship in anglophone churches. That is analogous to how the Latin was originally used in Christian worship.

Not quite. Even Tudor English has a shelf-life. It is no different than Old English or Middle English or Chaucerian English in that respect. It might be less changing than 2010 English, but it is not immutable. Although I respect the Anglican Mass and accept the Anglican Use Mass as valid, the Catholic Church has never accepted this language as official or sacred and merely treats it as any other vernacular or translation.

 

[jordananglo]

Sorry for my confusion, but by Anglo-Catholic do you mean Traditional Anglican Communion?

Anglo-Catholic is more about a people with a history rather than jurisdiction (at least in the current United States of America), but yes, TAC for the moment. With that said, the Ordinariate bound are coming from just about every Anglican jurisdiction. There are some even from that strange group, the Episcopal church - witness the Baltimore church that made its move public recently. Anglicanism has become so fractured that it is difficult to sort this all out, so your confusion is entirely justified. I have a hard time keeping it all straight myself! The point is that no jurisdiction is coherent. Even in TAC parishes you have romophobic protestants. Once the Ordinariates are up and running, the sorting will begin in earnest. It has been very messy already (thankfully mostly in private), and that mess will continue for some time.

 

[jordananglo]

Not quite. Even Tudor English has a shelf-life. It is no different than Old English or Middle English or Chaucerian English in that respect. It might be less changing than 2010 English, but it is not immutable. Although I respect the Anglican Mass and accept the Anglican Use Mass as valid, the Catholic Church has never accepted this language as official or sacred and merely treats it as any other vernacular or translation.

And Liturgical Latin has no shelf-life? I defer to the incomparable Fr. Hunwicke:

Half a century ago, the great Christine Mohrmann argued that the Mass should not be translated into vernaculars because modern European languages lacked sacred vernaculars. She demonstrated that liturgical Latin, far from being adopted in order to give Latin speakers a liturgy they could understand, was an intentionally hieratic and sacral dialect, based upon pagan liturgical formulae going back hundreds of years. So, she felt, a similar archaic and sacral dialect was the only appropriate vernacular form which should be given to the Roman Rite. Mohrmann was dead right - except about one detail. There was one European language which did have a sacral dialect venerable with centuries of use: English, as it was used in Anglican worship. It was one of the great tragedies of the post-Conciliar period that Roman Catholics ignored this precious and beautiful heritage; and that so many Anglicans followed suit.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/05/future-liturgy-of-anglican-ordinariate_17.html

 

[Ockham]

Thank you for the clarification. My heart leaps with joy with news of Anglicans coming home. Welcome back.

You may find the second story here interesting: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

 

[Pregustator]

Half a century ago, the great Christine Mohrmann argued that the Mass should not be translated into vernaculars because modern European languages lacked sacred vernaculars. She demonstrated that liturgical Latin, far from being adopted in order to give Latin speakers a liturgy they could understand, was an intentionally hieratic and sacral dialect, based upon pagan liturgical formulae going back hundreds of years. So, she felt, a similar archaic and sacral dialect was the only appropriate vernacular form which should be given to the Roman Rite. Mohrmann was dead right - except about one detail. There was one European language which did have a sacral dialect venerable with centuries of use: English, as it was used in Anglican worship. It was one of the great tragedies of the post-Conciliar period that Roman Catholics ignored this precious and beautiful heritage; and that so many Anglicans followed suit.

Hear, hear. Well said. I’m fully in support of the use of “archaic” English in English language liturgy. Same goes for scripture translations used at Mass. Give me the Douay-Rheims over the New American Bible (which is ghastly, in my opinion) any day.

 

[ProVobis]

It was one of the great tragedies of the post-Conciliar period that Roman Catholics ignored this precious and beautiful heritage; and that so many Anglicans followed suit.

So what. I was raised inside a Polish community being surrounded by Anglicans when we lived in London after the war. There was no way those in my community would have stepped into an Anglican Church. To this day I much prefer a Polish OF than anything Anglican. My father, a military world traveler and a brilliant Polish writer, till he died at 91 despised the English language.

One can even make a case where Polish is more Catholic than any kind of English since there are a lot higher percentage of Polish-speaking Catholics than English-speaking ones.

That’s the sad part of allowing all this vernacular stuff where we have to argue like this.

 

[ProVobis]

It was one of the great tragedies of the post-Conciliar period that Roman Catholics ignored this precious and beautiful heritage; and that so many Anglicans followed suit.

So what. I was raised inside a Polish community being surrounded by Anglicans when we lived in London after the war. There was no way those in my community would have stepped into an Anglican Church. To this day I much prefer a Polish OF than anything Anglican. My father, a military world traveler and a brilliant Polish writer, till he died at 91 despised the English language.

One can even make a case where Polish is more Catholic than any kind of English since there are a lot higher percentage of Polish-speaking Catholics than English-speaking ones.

That’s the sad part of allowing all this vernacular stuff where we have to argue like this. I’m done with this thread.

 

[BernadetteM]

And Liturgical Latin has no shelf-life? I defer to the incomparable Fr. Hunwicke:

Half a century ago, the great Christine Mohrmann argued that the Mass should not be translated into vernaculars because modern European languages lacked sacred vernaculars. She demonstrated that liturgical Latin, far from being adopted in order to give Latin speakers a liturgy they could understand, was an intentionally hieratic and sacral dialect, based upon pagan liturgical formulae going back hundreds of years. So, she felt, a similar archaic and sacral dialect was the only appropriate vernacular form which should be given to the Roman Rite. Mohrmann was dead right - except about one detail. There was one European language which did have a sacral dialect venerable with centuries of use: English, as it was used in Anglican worship. It was one of the great tragedies of the post-Conciliar period that Roman Catholics ignored this precious and beautiful heritage; and that so many Anglicans followed suit.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/05/future-liturgy-of-anglican-ordinariate_17.html

HI,

Do you ever go to the Anglo Catholic website or post there? It is sorta quiet right now, I think because we are waiting for the next step forward. I am attending a meeting with Fr. Phillips as guest speaker at my former parish and pray they will vote soon to join the Ordinariate.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ConstantineTG]

HI,

Do you ever go to the Anglo Catholic website or post there? It is sorta quiet right now, I think because we are waiting for the next step forward. I am attending a meeting with Fr. Phillips as guest speaker at my former parish and pray they will vote soon to join the Ordinariate.

God Bless

Bernadette

As the Anglican Use is potentially entering wider usage, I wonder how it will influence the Roman Missal going forward.

 

[BernadetteM]

As the Anglican Use is potentially entering wider usage, I wonder how it will influence the Roman Missal going forward.

I doubt that it will influence the OF at all. My hope is that in some of the OF parishes some of the Catholics will have the opportunity to understand what the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is. My parish is traditional and our Pastor is looking forward to the new translation.

The problem with it all, is that unless some of the innovations are forbidden in the rubics, not much will change except the language. I see much division here on CAF between Catholics on the liturgy and hope that someday all the Masses will be more unified.

It reminds me of my former life in the Episcopal church where one parish was called low (more protestant) other high church and then the Anglo Catholic parishes where you would feel you were in a Catholic Church before the changes of VII. Although the music was the same.

Someone mentioned here that the younger people are more attuned to what is sung today in church, but I recall as a very young girl going to my friends protestant churches and thought their hymns were not very uplifting. We must offer the best we have to our Lord in worship. Maybe I was just different as a young person, but I saw the difference and the attitude of my friends at their churches compared to my church. Of course this is not true for all people. My children and I don’t like the same popular music either.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ConstantineTG]

I doubt that it will influence the OF at all. My hope is that in some of the OF parishes some of the Catholics will have the opportunity to understand what the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is. My parish is traditional and our Pastor is looking forward to the new translation.

The problem with it all, is that unless some of the innovations are forbidden in the rubics, not much will change except the language. I see much division here on CAF between Catholics on the liturgy and hope that someday all the Masses will be more unified.

It reminds me of my former life in the Episcopal church where one parish was called low (more protestant) other high church and then the Anglo Catholic parishes where you would feel you were in a Catholic Church before the changes of VII. Although the music was the same.

Someone mentioned here that the younger people are more attuned to what is sung today in church, but I recall as a very young girl going to my friends protestant churches and thought their hymns were not very uplifting. We must offer the best we have to our Lord in worship. Maybe I was just different as a young person, but I saw the difference and the attitude of my friends at their churches compared to my church. Of course this is not true for all people. My children and I don’t like the same popular music either.

God Bless

Bernadette

There are very nice modern hymns but I wish we’d keep such hymns instead of changing hymns so often. Some like myself value participation very much and its hard to participate when there is a new hymn every Sunday. I remember growing up I learned to sing the Our Father in our language (Filipino) in a very nice hymn. Then at one point the hymn changed and I was disappointed, then over the years it changed a few more times. To this day I recall the “original” one and still wish for it to be used again, on a more permanent basis. Modern hymns are not a bad thing I believe, but lets make nice once, and use them for a long, long time.

As for the Anglican Use, I’m thinking about cross-enrichment as well and organic development. As more Catholics become exposed to the Anglican Use, I wonder how it would affect many Roman Catholics. I know many here are advocates of Latin, but I do know many like myself see Latin as a stumbling block to liturgical appreciation and participation. That is why I’m drawn more to the Divine Liturgy which is offered in English, rather than the EF which is exclusively in Latin. With the Anglican Use gaining wider usage, I wonder how many Catholics would it or bring some of its elements into the OF, Church approved of course.

 

[jordananglo]

So what. I was raised inside a Polish community being surrounded by Anglicans when we lived in London after the war. There was no way those in my community would have stepped into an Anglican Church. To this day I much prefer a Polish OF than anything Anglican. My father, a military world traveler and a brilliant Polish writer, till he died at 91 despised the English language.

One can even make a case where Polish is more Catholic than any kind of English since there are a lot higher percentage of Polish-speaking Catholics than English-speaking ones.

That’s the sad part of allowing all this vernacular stuff where we have to argue like this. I’m done with this thread.

ProVobis, I think you misunderstand me if you think I am saying that say, liturgical English is “better” than Polish, or some such thing. I think it is also silly to say that the Polish language is more Catholic than the English language. Language is religiously neutral - it expresses the way we communicate. Some languages are better suited to certain tasks than others. If we identified language with the people, then Latin would never have been used - it was the Roman language used by the invaders of the Holy Land, who actually crucified Christ.

More power to you if you pray in Polish. My point was not the language, per se. It is the way in which we pray and draw close to God. The point I was making is that this should not be done in a casual and haphazard manner, and that “sacral” language is preferable to “street verbage”, in whatever language we happen to be talking about. In the Roman rite, this has traditionally been liturgical Latin. In the English language, we are about to have a whole treasure-trove of traditional English Catholic prayers approved. That can only be a good thing.

 

[Warrenton]

I’m late in coming to this thread, so sorry to skip so many interesting thoughts between the first post and the last!

I do believe strongly that the liberalized use of the EF will result in a profound renewal of the Church in the coming years, and part of this renewal will be in the mutual enrichment of our sacraments.

To borrow a metaphor from the marketplace, I think the basic renewal on both forms arises from the fact that friendly competition is healthy. Those of us who are attached to the EF know that we need to be dedicated worshipers and support our parishes fully. I expect that this will lead to greater beauty and order on the altar and in the Church. Music should improve, too. Knowing that the EF is somewhat provisional will keep the pro-forma habits of the old low mass from returning. It’s hard to argue that having an OF does not help in understanding the meaning of the EF, so a greater percentage of worshippers at contemporary EF services probably understand more of the finer points than in the past.

For the OF, if the choir or schola is proficient at chant as a result of the EF, they will also sing sometimes at the OF. More people will become acquainted with their heritage as Catholics, which is wonderful. When the priests and people see the reverence of EF services, they will want to include elements of that in the OF. Many here have already opinied that the canon may once again be said facing east.

Secondly, I think that the free use of the EF will basically operate as a Lumen Gentium for Catholics one to the other. Many traditional Catholics felt excluded - indeed, proscibed - by the changes over the last 40 years. Sometimes it seemed that virtually anything was licit, except the EF. With this era passing, we can all focus on the work of renewing our Church and our society, secure in the knowledge that we do not need to fight each other.

 

[BernadetteM]

There are very nice modern hymns but I wish we’d keep such hymns instead of changing hymns so often. Some like myself value participation very much and its hard to participate when there is a new hymn every Sunday. I remember growing up I learned to sing the Our Father in our language (Filipino) in a very nice hymn. Then at one point the hymn changed and I was disappointed, then over the years it changed a few more times. To this day I recall the “original” one and still wish for it to be used again, on a more permanent basis. Modern hymns are not a bad thing I believe, but lets make nice once, and use them for a long, long time.

As for the Anglican Use, I’m thinking about cross-enrichment as well and organic development. As more Catholics become exposed to the Anglican Use, I wonder how it would affect many Roman Catholics. I know many here are advocates of Latin, but I do know many like myself see Latin as a stumbling block to liturgical appreciation and participation. That is why I’m drawn more to the Divine Liturgy which is offered in English, rather than the EF which is exclusively in Latin. With the Anglican Use gaining wider usage, I wonder how many Catholics would it or bring some of its elements into the OF, Church approved of course.

The only influence I can see, is that maybe some of the priests might be influenced by attending an Anglican Use parish and take back some of the elements in regards to music and the reverence shown at these parishes. It will be up to the Pastor of a parish to make any type of changes.

At least for myself the hymns we sang as Anglicans lifted my soul up towards Heaven.

I agree about some who only accept Latin and anything else is looked down upon. It is sad to me as well as in some parishes where they only sing contempory hymns that do nothing for my soul in worship.

Anglican Use parishes do at some Mass settings use Latin for the Gloria, Sanctus and Creed. I think the major point is that you have full participation in the whole Mass at Anglican Use parishes. Everyone sings and ususally if not all, most of the versus. No one leaves church until the last verse. I suppose my background makes these actions more important to me than most would even think about.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Ockham]

I’m late in coming to this thread, so sorry to skip so many interesting thoughts between the first post and the last!

Nice post. Welcome to the forum.