The Reformation...reforming to What?

[Prosmith]

I think it likely that you are confusing the execution of More with the murder of Thomas a Beckett. Henry indeed purposed the death of More, and it didn’t come from a misunderstanding of two attendants. Which was the story of a Beckett’s murder. More had a lengthy series of interrogations and a trial. It was a stacked deck from the start. Though not, as someone said here, based on More’s refusal to swear an oath to Henry’s being head of the Church in England. There was no oath in the Supreme Head Act. They got him on something else. After the sentencing , Henry changed the method of execution from the full hung/drawn/quartered at Tyburn to the simple beheading at the Tower. It was accounted a mercy, may have been that and something more. I again recommend Scarisbrick. Or perhaps Reynolds THE FIELD IS WON. Or something.

What in particular about Henry’s coffin are you thinking of?

GKC

This of course compares not to the way in which Archbishop Cranmer, Lattimer and Ridley were viciously murdered.

 

[GKC]

This of course compares not to the way in which Archbishop Cranmer, Lattimer and Ridley were viciously murdered.

Not to mention that it compared not in the least with the fashion in which Archbishop Cranmer was viciously murdered.

I don’t fault folks who lived in the 16th century because they acted like they lived in the 16th century. But Beckett (12th century) was murdered, Cranmer/Ridley/Lattimer, like More and Fisher, were executed, after the legal proceedings each underwent.

There is enough blood to go around, for some to be found on all hands in power, then.

GKC

 

[KathleenGee]

GKC,

For a number of reasons I have to be brief…and I have always alot beckoning me to spend so much time here…

I am trying to find the magazine on England Travel…so far can’t find it…an apologetic regarding Henry VIII…I do think I counted V plus III…but yes at times I get More and Becket confused, and do know that likewise More had been through a series of trial appearances.

Fr Peto, Franciscan, said to Henry that when he died, a dog would lick up his blood…I have read that which said his corpus exploded…the Tudor Wiki says he was placed in his coffin, and it went for some time on bumpy roads, and when it arrived at the palace, it was dripping and a dog was found underneath licking it. Some see it as a prophecy.

What we are following are individual men, and Christ did not set up His church to be broken up by men 1,500 years later.

I think of Luther…his scruples, his toilet on display in Worms…such a name to us, and how an angel warned him not to go ahead with his so-called reformation.

True reform of the Church must be done by ecclesiastics…the Council of Florence attempted to do so, but the times were so full of dissension and politics, it was a failure…

So we see the unity of faith heading for dismantling, but people following ignorance, riots, nationalism mixed in with religion, a very sorry mess to understand in hindsight.

When power rules, truth goes out.

And I am referring here as well to the American fundamentalist preachers and their indoctrination of followers with great misrepresentation of our Catholic faith. We have in-laws who are anti-Catholic. My daughter told me of a note given to her right under my nose at a luncheon…that said ‘religion destroys faith’…at our Catholic luncheon for mothers…my hosting them. The family members left immediately after the luncheon, not having any intention to see my church inside.

There is an American Benedictine bishop who is now preparing lay men to confront this sort of misconceptions that causes such extreme, unChristian behavior and unsubstantiated fears.

 

[GKC]

GKC,

For a number of reasons I have to be brief…and I have always alot beckoning me to spend so much time here…

I am trying to find the magazine on England Travel…so far can’t find it…an apologetic regarding Henry VIII…I do think I counted V plus III…but yes at times I get More and Becket confused, and do know that likewise More had been through a series of trial appearances.

Fr Peto, Franciscan, said to Henry that when he died, a dog would lick up his blood…I have read that which said his corpus exploded…the Tudor Wiki says he was placed in his coffin, and it went for some time on bumpy roads, and when it arrived at the palace, it was dripping and a dog was found underneath licking it. Some see it as a prophecy.

What we are following are individual men, and Christ did not set up His church to be broken up by men 1,500 years later.

I think of Luther…his scruples, his toilet on display in Worms…such a name to us, and how an angel warned him not to go ahead with his so-called reformation.

True reform of the Church must be done by ecclesiastics…the Council of Florence attempted to do so, but the times were so full of dissension and politics, it was a failure…

So we see the unity of faith heading for dismantling, but people following ignorance, riots, nationalism mixed in with religion, a very sorry mess to understand in hindsight.

When power rules, truth goes out.

And I am referring here as well to the American fundamentalist preachers and their indoctrination of followers with great misrepresentation of our Catholic faith. We have in-laws who are anti-Catholic. My daughter told me of a note given to her right under my nose at a luncheon…that said ‘religion destroys faith’…at our Catholic luncheon for mothers…my hosting them. The family members left immediately after the luncheon, not having any intention to see my church inside.

There is an American Benedictine bishop who is now preparing lay men to confront this sort of misconceptions that causes such extreme, unChristian behavior and unsubstantiated fears.

Thank you for the information. There are a number of stories as to what might have happened after his death, to Henry’s body. Looking quickly in 5 bios of Hank, and 2 general Tudor histories, on the shelf and close to hand, I would conclude these are not accepted history, but legends, Lacey Baldwin Smith’s HENRY VIII:THE MASK OF ROYALTY, suggests that the body was embalmed before being moved. Exsanguinated, there was no blood to drip. And no academic source I know of speaks of his body exploding. A poetic legend, as far as I know. The protestants have their own, of his death. But if there is a published source I might get my hands on, I’d live to see it. Learning stuff is always good.

By Tudor Wiki, do you mean the site dedicated to the television show?

Henry was certainly fat, though.

And there most certainly is a wide range of ignorant, anti-Catholic ideas around. The more knowledge is spread, the less that ignorance can thrive.

GKC

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi GKC,

I was reading the Tudor Wiki, assuming I am going to knowledgeable history of the Tudors…and not some outsider!! … like me!

I want to be fair and look at objective, contextual sources…but I do find those who started their own denominations…with plenty of flaws…and the work of individual men who were drawing on the non-religious, but actual political, nationalistic movements of populations…besides that reacting to corruption of Catholic clerics.

I don’t know where you live, but there was a commercial out on Henry VIII in the USA, eating something? and his last wife scolding him to stop doing whatever he was doing…hysterical…

I think the truth of what Catholics actually believe would be of great help to the various Bible base believers here…because our country is in such a need of faith to be one…‘so the world may believe’…as Christ said.

 

[GKC]

Hi GKC,

I was reading the Tudor Wiki, assuming I am going to knowledgeable history of the Tudors…and not some outsider!! … like me!

I want to be fair and look at objective, contextual sources…but I do find those who started their own denominations…with plenty of flaws…and the work of individual men who were drawing on the non-religious, but actual political, nationalistic movements of populations…besides that reacting to corruption of Catholic clerics.

I don’t know where you live, but there was a commercial out on Henry VIII in the USA, eating something? and his last wife scolding him to stop doing whatever he was doing…hysterical…

I think the truth of what Catholics actually believe would be of great help to the various Bible base believers here…because our country is in such a need of faith to be one…‘so the world may believe’…as Christ said.

I don’t recommend internet sites at all, for history, in general. There are certainly
exceptions, but I rely on books. Like Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII. Written by a highly regarded RC scholar, as I mentioned, and the best single book I know of on Henry and what happened. In fact, I recommend as many books as possible, and careful study and weighing of each. The standard bio of Henry, before Scarisbrick’s book, was by Pollard. To read him gives a certain appreciation of Hank. To read Scarisbrick greatly expands that, and offers differing interpretations on many points.

Have not seen that commercial, but I can imagine it.

I think better knowledge of what Catholics believe would indeed be of benefit to any who are not aware of it.

GKC

 

[KathleenGee]

The problem for me is that reading books is now very time consuming…I do find good resources out on the internet…but I must tell you, GKC, that when I was in Catholic grade school, what we were taught by the Irish nuns was that Henry wanted a male heir, and when the queen could not produce a son, he had the marriage deemed as annulled.

But then he married another…and it didn’t turn out well for her, and then had other wives, the next dimension, even with Anne Boleyn, came across as lust as well as desire for a male heir.

The TV commercial was a joke that now Henry had a wife who truly cared about him, took care of him hand and foot, but she was in charge, calling out, ‘Henry!!’, and he would respond with funny facial characteristics. Now when you mention your wife beckoning…it echoes of the commercial.

I am very happy the Anglicans are returning, and in my class with the bishop who was on the Council of Ecumenism at VCII, he saw integrity of the church in Anglicanism…he had other comments, though, for the Episcopalians.

 

[GKC]

The problem for me is that reading books is now very time consuming…I do find good resources out on the internet…but I must tell you, GKC, that when I was in Catholic grade school, what we were taught by the Irish nuns was that Henry wanted a male heir, and when the queen could not produce a son, he had the marriage deemed as annulled.

But then he married another…and it didn’t turn out well for her, and then had other wives, the next dimension, even with Anne Boleyn, came across as lust as well as desire for a male heir.

The TV commercial was a joke that now Henry had a wife who truly cared about him, took care of him hand and foot, but she was in charge, calling out, ‘Henry!!’, and he would respond with funny facial characteristics. Now when you mention your wife beckoning…it echoes of the commercial.

I am very happy the Anglicans are returning, and in my class with the bishop who was on the Council of Ecumenism at VCII, he saw integrity of the church in Anglicanism…he had other comments, though, for the Episcopalians.

Your nuns were correct: dynastic problems and an itch for Anne. But the story is more complicated than that. And not unusual, in Henry’s day.

The commercial wife sounds a little like Katherine Parr, Henry’s last wife. She could handle him best. My wife has a similar knack.

I have a variety of things I say about Episcopalians myself.

GKC

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…I remember, her name being Katherine. And being of Irish descent, yes…we all know about Cromwell.

You look at disasters…isn’t true that usually there are 5, 6, or 7 things all coming together at once…to create a Perfect Storm? I also think of the Titanic that made it the tragedy it is.

Same with the Reformation.

The safe ground is always living the Gospel.

 

[GKC]

Yes…I remember, her name being Katherine. And being of Irish descent, yes…we all know about Cromwell.

You look at disasters…isn’t true that usually there are 5, 6, or 7 things all coming together at once…to create a Perfect Storm? I also think of the Titanic that made it the tragedy it is.

Same with the Reformation.

The safe ground is always living the Gospel.

Yes, that’s it. Henry and the times were a perfect storm.

The Cromwell I was referring to was Thomas Cromwell. Who had some role in Ireland, details escape me. The Cromwell most often associated with Ireland, about 100 years later, is Oliver, who was a descendant of Thomas’ sister.

GKC

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, GKC, and for more information on the Cromwell family tree…

 

[GKC]

Thanks, GKC, and for more information on the Cromwell family tree…

You are very welcome.

GKC