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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Really?
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Spun
Guest
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Dokimas
Guest
Shall we bring into the discussion the inquisition and sex scandals? I hope not. That would not be apropriate as it your comment.By their fruits you will know them.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
The Holy Inquisition was good and just.
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Dokimas
Guest
Killing people that threaten your belief is Holy and good and just??? WOW.
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cruisin
Guest
unfortunately I think Humans remember the bad things that people do and not the good things.
I believe that no matter what, the church is to be a mirror to the thrown room of God. many times we are not.and it shows. the lost see us at our worst, when they do we fail to draw them in.
I believe that no matter what, the church is to be a mirror to the thrown room of God. many times we are not.and it shows. the lost see us at our worst, when they do we fail to draw them in.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Executing criminals that were traitors to the Christian society and government. In those times Heresy was revolution against the Christian society. The Holy Inquisition was a just system and more often than not the death penalty was not the end result. In 3 hundred some years of the Spanish Inquisition, in the colonies and in Spain, a few thousand criminals were executed for heresy. Heresy murders the soul. Is it holy and good and just to let heresy run free to kill millions and millions of souls?
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schaick
Guest
Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.
I was actually thinking of what Martin Luther accomplished as a simple Monk and wonder do Catholics consider these good fruits?
Doctor of Philosophy, Master of Arts, 1505, twenty-one years of age-headed towards Laws school. October 19, 1512, at the age of 28 Luther received his Doctor’s degree in theology
Chair in Biblical Theology at the University of Wittenberg and Priest for Wittenburg’s Castle Church.
Hymns by Martin Luther:
All Praise to Thee, Eternal God
Christ Jesus Lay in Death’s Strong Bands
Dear Christians, One and All, Rejoice
Flung to the Heedless Winds
From Depths of Woe I Cry to Thee
From Heaven Above
If God Had Not Been on Our Side
In Peace and Joy I Now Depart
In the Midst of Earthly Life
Isaiah, Mighty Seer, in Days of Old
Lord, Keep Us Steadfast in Your Word
May God Bestow on Us His Grace
A Mighty Fortress
O Lord, Look Down from Heaven, Behold
O Lord, We Praise Thee
Our Father, Thou in Heaven Above
Savior of the Nations, Come
That Man a Godly Life Might Live
Thou Who Art Three in Unity
We All Believe in One True God
We Now Implore God the Holy Ghost
Wrote thosands of sermons, read the Bible through 2 times a year for 10 years. Translated the Bible into German.
Luther’s whole adult workng life centered around Scripture, theology, the Church.
“There is no more lovely, friendly, and charming relationship, communion, or company than a good marriage.” (Martin Luther)
Martin and Kate had six children together- one was a teacher, a court advisor, a physician. Luther’s sisters’ six children lived with them after her death
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Spun
Guest
I am struck by the difference between this opinion and the current trend in the church to doubt the licitness of capital punishment under almost ANY circumstance.
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Matariel
Guest
The same applies to the individuals involved in some abuses during the Inquisition and the outrageous crimes of some homosexuals that were in the holy priesthood.
By their fruits you will know them. I stand by my statement.
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Matariel
Guest
Don’t forget he also broke his vows to God, wanted to burn the book of St. James because it didn’t agree with his theology, encouraged persecution of the Jews, get rid of Esther and the Deuterocanon, etc., etc.
And I am not judging Luther. I am merely stating facts; when it comes to a historical figure like Luther you cannot just sweep his bad things under the rug and merely present the good. His legacy is in both.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
I would agree with that. It applies to every professing Christian equally, regardless of what church they belong to.
When evaluating the Catholic Church throughout history, it is never right to judge the communion based on what members that compose it did. Whether that be the Inquisition, the Crusades (which I think were mostly justified, in a governmental sense), or the sex scandals. The individuals must be judged, not the entire church body. Which is why Luther, rarely, if ever, mentioned any immorality going on in the church of his day. The doctrine that the church teaches is what must be evaluated, not the people.
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Roblox84
Guest
I have compared this on this forum before to competition of organizations in current times. It is pretty obvious and it needs no biblical passages to explain.
The Catholic religion got so powerful and so big that many others wanted to personally reap the benefits of Christianity and not just give all that up to Catholics. Many people over the years tried to form their own “Reformations” but it took a powerful, convincing leader to be able to persuade people towards his own beliefs, not just any regular Joe Shmoe.
This is exactly what happens with organizations today, they invent a product, patent it, and distribute it. And when that product becomes a hit in the market, many other businesses pop up to try to duplicate that product and also reap the benefits of the market place. For example, Microsoft invents windows, strikes gold and many other companies start to invent their own operating systems, but they just never work as good as the original operating system that was first invented. The reformation was basically seen as a good business opportunity to bring in some cash.
So I honestly don’t have a damn clue how or why anyone, even Luther would even bring up the bible or beliefs in the whole reformation case since it wasn’t even about Christianity but more profit motivated. Gods not going to intervene in something like this because he gave man free will just like he gave Hitler a free will. I mean is this that complicated to understand?
The Catholic religion got so powerful and so big that many others wanted to personally reap the benefits of Christianity and not just give all that up to Catholics. Many people over the years tried to form their own “Reformations” but it took a powerful, convincing leader to be able to persuade people towards his own beliefs, not just any regular Joe Shmoe.
This is exactly what happens with organizations today, they invent a product, patent it, and distribute it. And when that product becomes a hit in the market, many other businesses pop up to try to duplicate that product and also reap the benefits of the market place. For example, Microsoft invents windows, strikes gold and many other companies start to invent their own operating systems, but they just never work as good as the original operating system that was first invented. The reformation was basically seen as a good business opportunity to bring in some cash.
So I honestly don’t have a damn clue how or why anyone, even Luther would even bring up the bible or beliefs in the whole reformation case since it wasn’t even about Christianity but more profit motivated. Gods not going to intervene in something like this because he gave man free will just like he gave Hitler a free will. I mean is this that complicated to understand?
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Matariel
Guest
I don’t think it was necessarily profit motivated. Personally, I think Luther was originally sincere but quickly, with his flamboyant and outrageous speech, devolved into a heretic (note: Protestants nowadays are not considered heretics, because they were not born in the Catholic Faith; you have to be born in the Faith and then reject part of it to become an heretic). And later the movement became more political, as different states and duchies endorsed Luther’s and Calvin’s views and made confessional states, closely allying Calvinism and Lutheranism with their political fiefdoms.
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Roblox84
Guest
Yes I could see that but people will also find loopholes of any kind just to beat the system, just like the whole Madoff case. One very intelligent sincere guy that later screwed everyone out of their money and they were like “everyone we knew trusted him so much”. So basically with Luther or others stating that they broke off for the sake of Christianity, well I just don’t buy it. I don’t think one single guy really gave a **** about the salvation of all others, I mean what is he, Jesus?. Just because he said he did it for Christianity and included some bible verses doesn’t mean there wasn’t something deeper below the face of it. I think many people just got blinded by some bible passages or doctrines that were thrown at them. Without analyzing any further motives of the reformers they just said “hey, he’s quoting the bible, it must be the truth then”. It sounds pretty dumb to me, to leave behind the original teachings of the apostles just to follow a guy because he claims to have the truth.
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Lutheranteach
Guest
However, when the immorality becomes systemic, or the doctrine becomes warped to hide or justify the behavior it becomes a serious issue.
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schaick
Guest
I was simply asking if Catholics believed these were good things.
You are correct Luther’s persecution of the Jews was horrible, yet he never killed anyone, burned them at the stake or anything. Jew The **Jew bashing **he did was par for the course at his time and I repeat was absolutely horrific!
Who of us are sinless?
It has been explained why he questioned the Books of the Bible as he did, but am happy to repeat it, Luther’s words:
*Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow.
In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to “save” the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses’ words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham’s works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham’s works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.
In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15:27], “You shall bear witness to me.? All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3:21]; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2:2]. Whatever does not teach Christ is not yet apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.” (ibid).
But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a “law of liberty” [1:25], though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin.
Moreover he cites the sayings of St. Peter [in 5:20]; Love covers a multitude of sins" [1 Pet. 4:8], and again [in 4:10], “Humble yourselves under he had of God” [1 Pet. 5:6] also the saying of St. Paul in Galatians 5:17], “The Spirit lusteth against envy.” And yet, in point of time, St. James was put to death by Herod [Acts 12:2] in Jerusalem, before St. Peter. So it seems that [this author] came long after St. Peter and St. Paul.
In a word, he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task in spirit, thought, and words. He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture. He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love. Therefore I cannot include him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. Therefore I will not have him in my Bible to be numbered among the true chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. One man is no man in worldly things; how then, should this single man alone avail against Paul and all Scripture.*
What did Luther say in his vow to GOD? If it was to uphold the teacings of Christ then did he truly break them? If he promised GOD to never go against the *Catholic *Church- big c here not Jesus’ church- then he did break them.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Yes, I agree. Then it is an issue of the sins and the wrong doctrine of individuals becoming institutionalized.
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Dokimas
Guest
How is executing traitors to the Christians society and government found in Jesus’ teaching to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give the extra cloak, etc? How is it a part of loving your enemy? How is it doing good to those that persecute you?
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