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ChestnutTree
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What does FWEIW mean?
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erikd
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Okay, since we’re being technical let me be more precise. Which Bible is currently used in Lutheran services? How many Books does this version have? If Lutherans are called that because they follow the teachings of Luther, does it not stand to reason that seven Old Testament Books would be removed as they are not worthy of being read in Church, as specified by the leader of the Church now called the Lutheran Church? In the grand scheme of things does that not equate to Biblical Books being eliminated based on the recommendations of one man, the leader of that Church?
See above analysis
The difference is that the people mentioned above did not teach the man-made teaching of Sola Fide. If the word alone was added to their commentary it was with the Catholic understanding that we are saved by faith apart from the works of the law (Levitical law) though we are also saved by works not by faith alone. Everything has to be taken into context, and Luther’s context was that man is saved by faith alone, a teaching that is contrary to Holy Scripture (James 2:24).
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Dokimas
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For What Ever It’s Worth
(smile not necessarily included in the meaning)
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erikd
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If Martin Luther claimed that seven Books of the Old Testament are not worthy of being read in Church, and through time those Books were eliminated from Church and from the Bible, would that not make it relevant to this discussion?
You’re right, we can question him, but my question is why are you defending a man who led so many sheep astray? He called the Pope an antichrist and broke many of the vows he swore to God to maintain. He was referred to by some Lutherans on these forums as a man of contradictions and therefore not the best source of the doctrines of Lutheranism. Yet you choose to question the very Church of which you claim to be a member.
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Spun
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I think it’s been pretty well demonstrated that you have cited an unreliable source and made an inaccurate claim, I am going to leave it there.
I am not responsible to you for my faith so your doubts about my commitment to the Church are irrelevant.
I am not responsible to you for my faith so your doubts about my commitment to the Church are irrelevant.
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erikd
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Does that mean that my questions to you will remain unanswered?
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Dokimas
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Seems Spun has answered you fairly. But that’s just me and my observation.
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erikd
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I still don’t have an answer about which Bible is used in the Lutheran services and how many Books it contains. I still don’t have an answer on why this is irrelevant to Luther “removing” Books from the Bible, as has been witnessed through history. If the leader of the Church recommends certain Books to not be read in Church, and they are not read in Church, and they are then removed from the Holy Scriptures, does that not show that Luther was responsible for removing Books from the Sacred Scriptures? I still don’t have an answer on the question of the authority that Luther had to make these non-canonical claims and the authority his Church had to remove these Books. In my mind these are open questions which have been asked and not answered. Fairly does not describe this as it is absolutely relevant to the topic at hand.
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Spun
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Until you answer mine, yes, that’s what it means.
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Dokimas
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Dokimas
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OOPS; I guess I was wrong. Just goes to show what I know.
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IowaJay
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Many Lutheran churches follow the Revised Common Lectionary, which contains readings from the deuterocanonicals.
Luther also encouraged the reading of the deuterocanonicals, so I have no idea why you make the claim that he discouraged them from being read.
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IowaJay
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To return to the subject of this thread, I really, really wish that Catholics (including some of the apologists I hear on EWTN) would read what Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul had to say about Luther.
Pope Benedict XVI, being from Germany and teaching at a university with Lutherans on the faculty, knows more about Luther and Lutheranism than most Lutherans do. He obviously does not agree with everything Luther said and did, but for the most part, he agrees with Catholic scholarship of the last 40–50 years regarding Luther, instead of prior Catholic writings on Luther which sought to defame Luther. Here is an interesting interview with him when he was Cardinal Ratzinger about Luther:
communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/ratzinger11-3.pdf
Pope Benedict XVI, being from Germany and teaching at a university with Lutherans on the faculty, knows more about Luther and Lutheranism than most Lutherans do. He obviously does not agree with everything Luther said and did, but for the most part, he agrees with Catholic scholarship of the last 40–50 years regarding Luther, instead of prior Catholic writings on Luther which sought to defame Luther. Here is an interesting interview with him when he was Cardinal Ratzinger about Luther:
communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/ratzinger11-3.pdf
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Spun
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I am aware. The holy father has been very kind to Luther in many of the things he has said and clearly has great esteem for the Lutheran scholars he knew and worked with at Tübingen.
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IowaJay
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Thank you!
Another interesting quote from Ratzinger about Luther is found at page 141 of his book “Principles of Catholic Theology” when he had kind things to say about Luther’s evaluation of the Early Church Fathers:
books.google.com/books?id=f2H9_uqW8p8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=ratzinger+principles+of+catholic+theology&cd=1#v=onepage&q=ratzinger%20principles%20of%20catholic%20theology&f=false
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gcnuss
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Erik,
Lutherans use a variety of Bible translations. In the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), to which I belong, the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) of the Bible is commonly used. A couple of study editions of the NRSV that I use have the Deuterocanonicals in them although in a separate section between the Old and New Testaments.
There is nothing that prohibits us from using the Deuterocanonicals, although we normally follow the Revised Common Lectionary which does not include readings from them except as alternative texts in a few cases. I must confess that I haven’t spent a great deal of time reading from them, a lack that I hope to remedy as time permits.
Going back to your original post, I would venture to say that Keenan’s writings about Luther and Lutheranism hardly give a true picture of Luther or the Lutheran expression of the Christian faith. It is as if I were to quote a virulently anti-Catholic Lutheran (and they do exist) as an authority on Catholicism. I prefer to get my information about Catholicism here on CAF or from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I have a copy which I use at times when I have a question about Catholic teachings. I would hope that ad hominem attacks on Luther would be given as little credibility in assessing Lutheran theology and ecclesiology as would similar attacks against the character of some Popes (e.g., the Medicis and the Borgias) in discussions of Catholic theology and ecclesiology.
I think your desire to defend the Catholic faith is wonderful. I’m just not sure that passing on things like Keenan’s writings is the most effective way to do that.
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TriuneUnity
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No; because Lutheran congregations in the US usually use English translations. None of which contain the deuterocanonicals, except for Catholic Bibles. Congregations which still use Luther’s German translation have the deuterocanonicals. It does not matter, however. You accused Luther of removing books from the Bible. It’s a false accusation. So you changed the subject to “what Lutherans believe” in order to dodge being called on a false statement.
You stated that Luther added the word alone to Romans 3:28. I am not sure if you’re aware, but any translation of the Greek manuscripts is not a word-word didaction. It is a translation. That means that Greek words are translated into the local language according to how that language best expresses the concept of the Greek original. That Luther used allein in his German translation is not an “addition” because the Greek NT wasn’t written in German! How can you add something to that which doesn’t exist? It’s ludicrous. And the citations only show that other translators and commentators used alone in whatever language they wrote in, in order to convey the sense of “faith apart from works” is equal to “faith apart from anything else” which is equal to “faith alone.”
What Luther taught about sola fide is irrelevent to whether he “added” words to the book of Romans. Again, you’re changing the subject to avoid a false accusation.
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TriuneUnity
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And the Pope is well liked in confessional Lutheran circles, as well. Not only because, unlike pop Catholic apologists, he actually knows what the heck he’s talking about when he talks about Luther, lol, but because of his fierce resistance to unorthodoxy and liberalism. If only men of his mettle existed at the time of the Reformation.
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TriuneUnity
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Can you find any of Luther’s introductions to the deuterocanonicals in his German translation which suggests that they not be read? How’s about reading Luther, instead of centuries old, dead, anti-Protestant Catholic bishops? The Lutherans never removed the deuterocanonicals up until the 20th century because they used Luther’s German translation until then (which included them). They began using English translations of the Bible, none of which contained them, due to assimilation into American culture.
The same authority that Jerome, Gregory the Great, and Cajetan had to claim their non-canonicity… i.e., Christian scholars.
Do you think if you say it enough, it will eventually become true?
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Harri_Laaksonen
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A little more for the What Ever Its Worth column,
The new edition of the “Kirkkoraamattu” (Church Bible) in Finland includes the D-C books.
In Finland, Radio 1, of the state broadcaster YLE, has morning and evening devotions. In recent weeks 3 of the morning devotions have included readings from the D-C books.
Do Lutherans use and appreciate the content of the D-C books? The answer is that many do.
The new edition of the “Kirkkoraamattu” (Church Bible) in Finland includes the D-C books.
In Finland, Radio 1, of the state broadcaster YLE, has morning and evening devotions. In recent weeks 3 of the morning devotions have included readings from the D-C books.
Do Lutherans use and appreciate the content of the D-C books? The answer is that many do.
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