The Reformation

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ryanclewis

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(I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to get information/views on something I know very little about)

Would you [Catholics] agree that there were some very real problems during the time of the Reformation? And didn’t Luther’s ideas bring to light the corruption of the church?

If so, then doesn’t that make the Roman Catholic Church fallible? How then do you know that everything it teaches today is correct?
 
(I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to get information/views on something I know very little about)

Would you [Catholics] agree that there were some very real problems during the time of the Reformation? And didn’t Luther’s ideas bring to light the corruption of the church?

If so, then doesn’t that make the Roman Catholic Church fallible? How then do you know that everything it teaches today is correct?
As a former cradle-Catholic, I can tell you that the Catholic church doesn’t teach that it is infallible. Infallibility is applied to the pope when he speaks in excathedra (faith and morals). I do not believe in this concept personally. You make a good point however to question the church and it being correct in its teachings. I believe that it can fail just as any other church can and has hence the Reformation. I believe that the Catholic church has quietly accepted much of what Luther argued for during the 16th century.
 
As a former cradle-Catholic, I can tell you that the Catholic church doesn’t teach that it is infallible. Infallibility is applied to the pope when he speaks in excathedra (faith and morals). I do not believe in this concept personally. You make a good point however to question the church and it being correct in its teachings. I believe that it can fail just as any other church can and has hence the Reformation. I believe that the Catholic church has quietly accepted much of what Luther argued for during the 16th century.
Actually, you got it partially right. However, the Church through the Councils can also be infallible. It is the Pope and the bishops. That is the Magisterium, the Pope in union with the Bishop.

Let me cite the Catechism:

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God

For further study, take a visit at:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p4.htm#889

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
 
(I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to get information/views on something I know very little about)

Would you [Catholics] agree that there were some very real problems during the time of the Reformation? And didn’t Luther’s ideas bring to light the corruption of the church?

If so, then doesn’t that make the Roman Catholic Church fallible? How then do you know that everything it teaches today is correct?
The Church has never claimed to infallible in her actions. Only in her infallible teachings. There is a difference.
 
And didn’t the church teach that buying indulgences forgave sin?
No. Individual priests did. But priests are not members of the magesterium. The Church in only infallible in certain ways.
  1. an Ecumenical Council of bishophs united to the Pope.
  2. The Pope, when he intends to clarify doctrine and bind the consciences of all Catholics to such a clarification.
  3. When all the bishops around the world agree on a teaching.
  4. When all of the faithful around the world agree on a teaching.
    Otherwise, the charism of infallibility is not being exercised.
 
(I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to get information/views on something I know very little about)

Would you [Catholics] agree that there were some very real problems during the time of the Reformation? And didn’t Luther’s ideas bring to light the corruption of the church?

If so, then doesn’t that make the Roman Catholic Church fallible? How then do you know that everything it teaches today is correct?
Great thread… and thank you for starting it. Also, welcome to Catholic Answers Forum. 👍
 
And didn’t the church teach that buying indulgences forgave sin?
Selling indulgence is simony. Second, do you know what indulgence is?

Here is a hint:

Indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment due for sins which have already been forgiven. The indulgence is granted by the church after the sinner has confessed and received absolution. The belief is that indulgences draw on the storehouse of merit acquired by Jesus’ sacrifice and the virtues and penances of the saints. They are granted for specific good works and prayers.

It was illegal during Martin Luther’s time to sell indulgence. The Council of Trent condemned the selling of Indulgence.

Actions for which indulgences are granted

There are four general grants of indulgence, which are meant to encourage the faithful to infuse a Christian spirit into the actions of their daily lives and to strive for perfection of charity. These indulgences are partial, and their worth therefore depends on the fervour with which the person performs the recommended actions:

Raising the mind to God with humble trust when performing one’s duties and bearing life’s difficulty, and adding, at least mentally, some pious invocation.

Devoting oneself or one’s goods compassionately in a spirit of faith to the service of one’s brothers and sisters in need.
Freely abstaining in a spirit of penance from something licit and pleasant.

Freely giving open witness to one’s faith before others in particular circumstances of everyday life.

Among the particular grants, which, on closer inspection, will be seen to be included in one or more of the four general grants, especially the first, the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum draws special attention[15] to four activities for which a plenary indulgence can be gained on any day, though only once a day:

Adoration of Jesus in the Eucharist for at least half an hour.[16]
The pious exercise of the Stations of the Cross .[17]

Recitation of the Rosary or the Akathist in a church or oratory, or in a family, a religious community, an association of the faithful and, in general, when several people come together for an honourable purpose.[18]

Piously reading or listening to Sacred Scripture for at least half an hour.[19]

A plenary indulgence may also be gained on some occasions, which are not everyday occurrences. They include:

Receiving, even by radio or television, the blessing given by the Pope Urbi et Orbi (to the city of Rome and to the world) or that which a bishop is authorized give three times a year to the faithful of his diocese.[20]

Taking part devoutly in the celebration of a day devoted on a world level to a particular religious purpose.[21] Under this heading come the annual celebrations such as the World Day of Prayer for Priestly and Religious Vocations, and occasional celebrations such as World Youth Day.[22][23]

Taking part for at least three full days in a spiritual retreat.[24]

Taking part in some functions during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity including its conclusion.[25]

The prayers specifically mentioned in the Enchiridion

Indulgentiarum are not of the Latin Rite tradition alone, but also from the traditions of the Eastern Catholic Churches, such as the Akathistos, Paraklesis, Evening Prayer, and Prayer for the Faithful Departed (Byzantine), Prayer of Thanksgiving (Armenian), Prayer of the Shrine and the Lakhu Mara (Chaldean), Prayer of Incense and Prayer to Glorify Mary the Mother of God (Coptic), Prayer for the Remission of Sins and Prayer to Follow Christ (Ethiopian), Prayer for the Church, and Prayer of Leave-taking from the Altar (Maronite), and Intercessions for the Faithful Departed (Syrian).

Apart from the recurrences listed in the Enchiridion, special indulgences are granted on occasions of special spiritual significance such as a Jubilee Year[26] or the centenary or similar anniversary of an event such as the apparition of Our Lady at Lourdes[27] or the celebration of a World Youth Day.

Of particular significance is the plenary indulgence attached to the Apostolic Blessing that a priest is to impart when giving the sacraments to a person in danger of death, and which, if no priest is available, the Church grants to any rightly disposed Christian at the moment of death, on condition that that person was accustomed to say some prayers during life. In this case the Church itself makes up for the three conditions normally required for a plenary indulgence: sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and prayer for the Pope’s intentions
 
Actually, you got it partially right. However, the Church through the Councils can also be infallible. It is the Pope and the bishops. That is the Magisterium, the Pope in union with the Bishop.

Let me cite the Catechism:

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God

For further study, take a visit at:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p4.htm#889

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
Who cares what your catechism says. A person has a right to disagree with the churches teachings.
 
I’m well aware that many of you are able to throw mountains of words around. But honestly, it doesn’t do any good for someone who isn’t trained in catholic teachings.

I read through those posts and gathered very little information. Simple questions desire simple answers. Jesus didn’t use long-winded explanations to explain His teachings.

Maybe it would help if I asked specific questions:
  1. Does the Catholic Church acknowledge that there were problems during the time of the Reformation?
  2. If so, does the church acknowledge that some sort of reform was necessary to take care of these problems?
  3. In what way(s) is the church fallible? Simple answers, please; assume I don’t even know what a dogma is.
 
I’m well aware that many of you are able to throw mountains of words around. But honestly, it doesn’t do any good for someone who isn’t trained in catholic teachings.

I read through those posts and gathered very little information. Simple questions desire simple answers. Jesus didn’t use long-winded explanations to explain His teachings.

Maybe it would help if I asked specific questions:
  1. Does the Catholic Church acknowledge that there were problems during the time of the Reformation?
  2. If so, does the church acknowledge that some sort of reform was necessary to take care of these problems?
  3. In what way(s) is the church fallible? Simple answers, please; assume I don’t even know what a dogma is.
So basically you saying that Jesus didn’t want anyone to use their brains? Sorry, but you are just not willing to address the fantastic answers provided for you. This could be because of several reasons:
  1. You know you are wrong
  2. You are afraid you might be wrong
  3. You are unwilling to expend the energy necessary to reply to our responses.
  4. You are wrong and you don’t want to admitt it.
    I see a trend.
 
BTW, you think that all of the teachings of the transcendant and infinite God should be simple? Wow.
 
  1. Does the Catholic Church acknowledge that there were problems during the time of the Reformation?
Depends. Problems with the official teachings of the Church? NO! Problems with how many of the people within the Church were living out those teachings, sure.
  1. If so, does the church acknowledge that some sort of reform was necessary to take care of these problems?
Yup, and around that time there were plenty of people within the Church working towards that end. Many people who are now Saints were working towards ending corruption and drawing people back into a living faith, people like St. Ignatius, St. Philip, and St. Vincent de Paul, as well as Popes like St. Pius V.

I think the key here though is these people were working to fix the problems instead of jumping ship and starting their own thing. Granted maybe it wasn’t always Luther etc. plan to jump ship, but ultimately that is what they choose to do.

A good, but rather long, article about the “counter-reformation” is here.
  1. In what way(s) is the church fallible? Simple answers, please; assume I don’t even know what a dogma is.
It is probably easier to say what is infallible. The Church is infallible in its teachings on faith and morals. The individual actions of various people, the Pope included, are NOT infallible. We all mess up.

Here is the Catechism on infallibility. And Wikipedia has what seems to be a pretty good article on dogma.
 
Who cares what your catechism says. A person has a right to disagree with the churches teachings.
Really how about what Jesus said to his disciples, “He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects the one who sent me.” Jesus said this to his Apostles. You reject the Church, you reject Jesus Christ.

It would be like when the Church tells you not to condone in abortion, and a Catholic says, “It’s my body I can do whatever I want.”

Or how about those early heretics like Arius and Nestorius who rejected the Orthodox Christian belief and started the heresy of Nestorianism, and Arianism. You disagree with the Church, that can put the person in line with the heretics.
 
Consider the following passage which I quote that Scripture in Luke Chapter 10 and following:

[1] After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.

(Here Jesus just appointed 70 new Disciples and gives the following instruction)

[2] And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. [3] Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. [4] Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road. [5] Whatever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house!' [6] And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. [7] And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. [8] Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; [9] heal the sick in it and say to them, The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
[10] But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
[11] `Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’
[12] I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
[13]
"Woe to you, Chora’zin! woe to you, Beth-sa’ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

[14] But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
[15] And you, Caper’na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
[16]
**“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” **

[17]
The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!”

This verse is only address to the 70 disciples and his followers. The Church has the final authority on all matters concerning faith and morals.
 
Don’t think so my friend. The Scriptures say different. Jesus in the gospels says different. I’ll stick with his word over man’s.
Really? How do you know your interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? I could read Scripture and all of sudden, I can kill abortionist because they are killing infants. In the OT, they killed unbelievers so by that right, I too can kill those who are against Church teachings?

Or about how the teachings concerning contraception, or abortion for that matter? I can disagree on those as well knowing the fact since Early Christians contraception and abortions have always been condemned by the Church. The Didache condemns Christians using contraception and abortion…

You distort Scripture by ignoring passages in Scripture that shows Jesus gave us an authoritive Church, the power to bind and loose in Matthew 18:18, Matthew 16:16-19, Luke 10:16, and many others.
 
(I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to get information/views on something I know very little about)
Your going to get a great number of answers to this I’m sure, but I will just try to distill it down to specific answers to your questions.
Would you [Catholics] agree that there were some very real problems during the time of the Reformation?
Yes I would agree (personal opinion) that there were some very real problems in the Church at the time of the Reformation.
And didn’t Luther’s ideas bring to light the corruption of the church?
Luther was but one person in the Church who had issues with some of the practices. There were others who simply did not carry their protest to the point that ML did.
If so, then doesn’t that make the Roman Catholic Church fallible? How then do you know that everything it teaches today is correct?
This is a much more complex question.
I accept what the Church teaches because the Church has the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. What it Binds on Earth, is bound in Heaven and what it looses on Earth is Loosed in Heaven. Should a teaching be in error, then Our King who is Jesus Christ will hold those who teach this error accountable. He will not punish those who follow such teaching since it comes from His Church.

I had started a thread which touches on this idea called
“Bible Proof of Church Authority… Tell it to the Church.”
You may find it helpful.

Peace
James
 
I’m well aware that many of you are able to throw mountains of words around. But honestly, it doesn’t do any good for someone who isn’t trained in catholic teachings.

I read through those posts and gathered very little information. Simple questions desire simple answers. Jesus didn’t use long-winded explanations to explain His teachings.

Maybe it would help if I asked specific questions:
  1. Does the Catholic Church acknowledge that there were problems during the time of the Reformation?
  2. If so, does the church acknowledge that some sort of reform was necessary to take care of these problems?
  3. In what way(s) is the church fallible? Simple answers, please; assume I don’t even know what a dogma is.
I will tell you that the Church’s official response to the Reformation was the council of Trent. If you take a look at the document, you will get an idea of some teachings the Church felt she needed to clarify in light of the Reformation.

The binding and loosing statements given from the Gospel of St. Matthew should be sufficient evidence of the authority of the Church, however, one could also turn to I Tim. 3:15 which states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I am sure there are other places in the NT that could be provided, but these two places come to mind immediately.

The beauty of the Church is that she exists mysteriously (one might even dare to say sacramentally) in both divine and human venues. Yes, she has human members that do sin and can attempt to distort what it is that she actually teaches. Nevertheless, the accompaniment of the Divine Paraclete with the Church keeps her from teaching error and also, as the gospel tells us, the gates of hell from prevailing against her.
 
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