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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
What could the Catholic Church have done to avoid the Reformation?
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PerfectTiming
Guest
I don’t know what the Church could have done to avoid the reformation. I don’t think it could be avoided. There were always going to be those within the church who are schismatic, those who will try to twist the word of God and ignore the traditions of His Church, those who are mislead by the temptations of the world.
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catsrus
Guest
Had a pre-reformation-counter reformation? 
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Timothy17
Guest
Ultimately, that question can only be answered by the heretics themselves. Insomuch as their demands were not an affront to the divinely mandated duty of the Church, therein would be your answer. Problem is, we suspect that this would not all all suffice, and nonetheless, the demand for reformation would have proceeded regardless.
See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7589003"]this thread, for example.
Pax Christi,
Tim
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TimothyH
Guest
During the early 16th century, the Ottomon empire was invading southern and western Europe and Islamic armies had gotten as far as placing vienna under siege. Italy had been at war with France and there were all sorts of geo-political issues. It was during that same time that Martin Luther (1483-1546) was stirring up trouble in Germany.
Faced with intra-continental wars and Islam invading to his south and some renegade monk in Germany, I think the Popes did what they could.
Volumes have been written on this subject.
-Tim-
Faced with intra-continental wars and Islam invading to his south and some renegade monk in Germany, I think the Popes did what they could.
Volumes have been written on this subject.
-Tim-
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momor
Guest
A little less clerical corruption perhaps? I’m afraid Luther had quite a bit of “material” to work with!
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Alan55
Guest
There were attempts at reform around the time of Luther. Erasmus was one strong voice for such reform, among others. It may be the case that Luther’s in-your-face approach stiffened the resolve of the Pope to push back and maintain the status quo in the areas of scripture, liturgy, etc., thus delaying such reforms for centuries: mass in the vernacular, communion under both kinds, etc. There was true reform that resulted from the Council of Trent, such as improving the education of clergy (the Catholics instituted the first seminary).
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gcnuss
Guest
I suspect that, given the religious and political situations of the time, the Reformation was virtually inevitable once it began. Could it have been avoided? Only with a great deal of flexibility and diplomacy on both sides, qualities that seem to have been sadly lacking.
Theologically, the Church was firm in its insistence that it, and only it, had the truth and that any deviation from its teachings and practices was heresy. The reformers, on the other hand, were equally convinced of their own rightness and were not about to turn away from that which they considered to be true.
Politically and economically, parts of Europe (particularly Germany) were chafing at the control the Church held in everyday life and in the amount of capital that was removed from their economies and sent to Rome. This situation was a tinderbox waiting for a spark and that spark came from a relatively innocuous challenge to a misuse of indulgences.
I would like to think that the Reformation could have been avoided but the hardening of positions on both sides soon made that impossible. It has only been in recent decades that harsh polemics between Catholics and Protestants have moderated – and even then not in all cases.
Could the Church have done something to avoid the Reformation? In hindsight, I think it could have but I don’t think that the actions needed to do so were possible given the tenor of the times.
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mark_a
Guest
I often wonder if Church doctrine and dogma would have refined to it’s current beautiful teachings without the reformation and especially without the early heretics.
Except for double predestination which is absolutely the cruelest doctrine ever invented, I find it difficult to think of the reform movement theologies as serious heresies.
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Roy5
Guest
A few ways that the Church may have avoided the Reformation
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1. Stop people like Tetzel from running aroung 'selling indulgences'.
2. Listen patiently to dissenters like Luther instead of declaring him an enemy and thereby forcing him out of the Church and seeking refuge to avoid being killed by 'some faithful Christian'.
3. Cut out corruption in the Church, including the Vatican. When Luther went to Rome he was shocked by what he saw and heard.
4. Become less severe when it came to doctrinal 'purity' - something I would suggest today as well. Make it easier for independent and creative thinkers to find a place in the church without being condemned as 'heretics' if they found it impossible to believe every tradition that had been inherited from the ancient and medieval past.
5. Show more of the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount - love, understanding, forgiveness, reconciliation.
6. Drop superstitions, some continuing today, that were especially widespread within and without the Church during ancient and medieval times.
Those may have helped quell the Reformation.
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mark_a
Guest
Roy,
In the interest of fair play, maybe you could fill in the “religion” field in your profile so we can know better where you are coming from.
For example, if you are Puritan, we could safely presume that you would think a good test for determining whether or not a woman was a witch would be to soak bread with her urine and feed it to a dog and see if it goes mad, just like the Puritans in their hayday.
Or if you are Lutheran, that the creaking noises of a house as it expands and contracts with the heat of the day are really the noises of the devil himself coming after you, just like your founder.
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momor
Guest
So in other words we could then have thousands of splinter Catholic churches like we have Protestant ones today - all thinking THEY are preaching the true message of Christ?
No thanks!
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benidict
Guest
If I am not mistaken, there were others attempting to reform the Church from within, prior to Luther. They did not however leave and form their own religion. Could Luther not have stayed within the confines of the Church, and worked within this frame work, so that fractures that have occurred, wouldnt have? not saying its all his fault. we still would have had Calvin and others to contend with. Peace 
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cooterhein
Guest
The Schism led to some polarization in certain areas. Some of it happened on both sides, but more of it happened in the West. No Reformations have happened in the East since then, and it’s a good bet that no reformations (Protestant, Catholic, or otherwise) would have happened on this scale if the papal legate hadn’t interrupted Mass at the Hagia Sophia in order to lay some excommunication papers on the altar in 1054. Not making any judgments as to which side obstinately defied the other, of course, but that is the act that put the year 1054 on the map. My suggestion: Avoid sending papal legates to major Eastern cathedrals in order to interrupt Mass and use the altar inappropriately.
Other ideas along the way since that time: The Crusades changed Europe drastically and affected every aspect of European life, so there’s always a what-if game that you can play starting with the Crusades and ending with anything that remotely follows. And the establishment of a more rigid hierarchy under Innocent III permanently affected the structure and function of Catholic leadership, so that had far-reaching consequences in everything that Catholic leaders have done since then.
It might be fun if you post this question on an Orthodox forum somewhere. But be braced for at least a couple of answers that say “Idk, unity is just something that the Holy Spirit does for His One True Church and I guess that’s us not you…” As fun as that must be for an Orthodox Christian to say, though, it doesn’t provide much of an answer to the question beyond stating that God could have prevented the Reformation from happening but decided not to.
Are you willing to accept an entirely God-centered response? Or is the answer found in what people did or didn’t do? Perhaps some mix of the two? If so, what sort of mix are you looking for?
Oh, one more thing: The Protestant Reformation would have happened quite a bit earlier if the Black Plague hadn’t put a stop to everything that was happening in Europe, so any of the major factors that go into causing the Reformation should probably come from no later than the early 14th century. While there certainly were things that happened within, for example, Luther’s lifetime that individually set him off, I don’t think there’s much in the way of big-picture items that eventually contributed to drastic change on a continental and worldwide level between the late 14th century and early 16th century. Some big-ticket items were in progress during that entire time period, but if you’re looking for where major things started to happen, you probably need to look earlier than the 14th century.
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cooterhein
Guest
Where do you think those churches splintered from? Give you a hint- it’s one of the really ancient churches, and it’s not the Orthodox Church.
You say “no thanks,” but it’s way too late for that. It already happened, it’s still happening, and it’s happening to you guys. Like it or not, this is your problem- if that’s what you choose to see it as.
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momor
Guest
The schismatic churches have continued to splinter into thousands of denominations while the Latin Church they splintered from has remained unified. Now Anglicans are coming back. That’s why I say no thanks to the idea of abandoning doctrinal purity to “creative thinkers”.
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Lutheranteach
Guest
WIthout the the reformation there is nothing resembling a modern democracy.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
First this is debatable and is nothing more than an opinion. Since the Reformation did happen we can only speculate on what would happen if it didn’t. Second this has nothing to do with the topic which is; what could the Catholic Church have done to avoid the Reformation?
God bless
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Timothy17
Guest
False.
The Republic of Venice (Italian: Repubblica di Venezia, Venetian: Repùblica Vèneta or Repùblica de Venesia) or Venetian Republic was a state originating from the city of Venice in Northeastern Italy. It existed for over a millennium, from the late 7th century until the year 1797.
Pax Christi,
Tim
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Roy5
Guest
Ha1 Ha! I assume you re being funny and not simply hostile.
As I have said several times, I am a product of a Catholic/Protestant heritage. Indeed, one of my ancestral kin (paternal side) was Archbishop of Quebec nearly 200 years ago. On the maternal line, an ancestor in Belgium was ordered to appear before the City Countil of Ghent, He had become a Huguenot in the 16th century and he knew that this likely met execution, or at least torture and imprisonment. So, that very night he fled with his family, ended up in England, and his grandson, by then a Puritan, came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony.
Code:
I presume this mixed heritage had led me to wish and work fervently for an ecumenical spirit rather than continued sniping and stereotyping. My postings should be read in this context.
In my view, both traditions have been scarred by superstition, bitterness, pettiness, misunderstanding and a woeful lack of Christian charity. As I recall (I Cor. 13) love is even more important than faith. I interpret that to mean that love of one another outranks doctrinal differences. I wish more of such love was evident with some of those who post here on CAF.
I strongly believe in a 'big tent' Christianity (unity, not union), where honest people who may hold differing viewpoints can come together and dialogue in a spirit of friendship and mutual respect. I always liked the statement of John Wesley which went something like this: "If you love God as I love God, if you wish to serve Christ as I wish to serve Christ, let us join hands and walk together." He also is quoted as suggesting that we "think and let think". Amen!
This notion that only one church has a monopoly on the full splendor of truth in this mammoth, marvelous, miraculous and mysterious universe troubles me. My own feeling is that we all live in considerable ignorance in a world with perhaps a billion or two solar systems. I know, of course, that such independent thinking is condemned as egotism, but so be it. But when we arrive in that world to come I suspect that all of us and all of our doctrines and theories will seem primitive compared to the ultimate truth. But, thank God, the Lord is merciful, quick to forgive us our human pride, errors, and silliness.
God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.- Status