The Reformation

[Limerickman]

I have always found Luther much more interesting than Henry or Calvin. Luther was the only one of the three who refused to be “kicked out” of the Church. That’s why he insisted that he was a Catholic to the end of his life. Whereas, Henry and Calvin wanted to keep the Catholic Church at a distance.

There is an interesting dialog between Luther and his wife. I can’t recall what he was writing, but she pointed out to him that he was being to harsh and even arrogant. He responded, “They have made me so.” He’s not the first or the last person to deny responsibility for his choices. That’s not what I found interesting. What I found interesting is that he acknowledges that he is a very angry man and that his anger is coloring his spiritual and theological works. When reading his work, we were always reminded to keep in mind that this was an angry man, not just a heretic. There were two layers to his work, error and anger. I have often believed that the latter is more dangerous than the former. When you’re angry, you tend to stand your ground, even if you suspect that you’re wrong.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks for this analysis.

Yes, Martin Luther makes for an interesting psychological study if nothing else. It is clear that the man was prone to deep depression. Whether than depression was brought on by his view of the Roman Catholic Church or by some other cause such as a predisposition would make for an interesting discussion.

Yes, the man held heretical views but it is my considered view that Pope in charge at the time was the spawn of the devil himself.

In the context of that time, Luther was correct in some of the views that he expressed.

I read recently on a Lutheran website that it is their view that the RCC have started to rehabilitate Luther somewhat.
is this view correct?

 

[cemiller]

Thanks everyone for the answers. As far as the history goes most sources that I’ve looked at agree that there was blood baths on both sides of the fence. That’s really what I was looking for. The point I was trying to make in the conversation I was invovled in was that both side were guilty. Not that one side was more guilty then the other. Both had members that did bad things and we have to look back at that, accept it, and move on while putting the hatred and anger behind us.

 

[Roy5]

It’s been interesting to read that this mass murderer in Norway haf urged Protestants to become Catholics so that Europe will have a unified Christian faith against Islam. He seems to romanticize medievalism, which was full of serfs, absolute monarchs, poverty, devastating diseases, killing of heretics, etc. He appears to be calling for what amounts to 21th century crusades against the Muslims.

 I can understand the anxiety about the growth of Islam in Europe, but his cure hardly reflects Christ's gospel of love. I have to wonder about some of the postings here on CAF, and how they reflect that love.

 May religion serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier. God bless loving people of faith whatever their creed, color, culture or country.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

It’s been interesting to read that this mass murderer in Norway haf urged Protestants to become Catholics so that Europe will have a unified Christian faith against Islam. He seems to romanticize medievalism, which was full of serfs, absolute monarchs, poverty, devastating diseases, killing of heretics, etc. He appears to be calling for what amounts to 21th century crusades against the Muslims.

 I can understand the anxiety about the growth of Islam in Europe, but his cure hardly reflects Christ's gospel of love. I have to wonder about some of the postings here on CAF, and how they reflect that love.

 May religion serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier. God bless loving people of faith whatever their creed, color, culture or country.

The Norway guy is really wierd to say the very least. The thing is, he isn’t even Catholic himself, and is barely Protestant (I’d question whether he is really Christian in name or not). And a crusade against muslims will not help anything - if anything it will make Christians seems like (bigger) jerks to the media. But keep in mind that our culture isn’t much better than medieval times (if any better).

I agree entirely with the 2nd paragraph.

I agree with the 3rd. Hopefully someday we can all be Catholic (that includes you and me ).

 

[JReducation]

Thanks everyone for the answers. As far as the history goes most sources that I’ve looked at agree that there was blood baths on both sides of the fence. That’s really what I was looking for. The point I was trying to make in the conversation I was invovled in was that both side were guilty. Not that one side was more guilty then the other. Both had members that did bad things and we have to look back at that, accept it, and move on while putting the hatred and anger behind us.

I like to use the term “our ancestors”, because that’s who we’re talking about. We’re not talking about Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Quakers, Puritans, etc. We’re talking about our ancestors. If there were one of each group at a round table, we’d have to admit that our ancestors made a mess of things.

I believe that if we think of it this way, it minimizes the finger pointing and blaming of people who were not there and puts the problem where it belongs, at the feet of the people who were there. I believe that all of us, Catholics and Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox, are victims of our ancestors. The broken bond of unity is now our inherited problem to fix.

It’s been interesting to read that this mass murderer in Norway haf urged Protestants to become Catholics so that Europe will have a unified Christian faith against Islam. He seems to romanticize medievalism, which was full of serfs, absolute monarchs, poverty, devastating diseases, killing of heretics, etc. He appears to be calling for what amounts to 21th century crusades against the Muslims.

 I can understand the anxiety about the growth of Islam in Europe, but his cure hardly reflects Christ's gospel of love. I have to wonder about some of the postings here on CAF, and how they reflect that love.

 May religion serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier. God bless loving people of faith whatever their creed, color, culture or country.

I’m going to answer this as a Franciscan. Though St. Francis, his sons and daughters have always abored all forms of violence, we have never been known for discriminating when it comes to violence. In other words, violence, whether it comes from Muslim extremists or Christian extremists is the same sin, has its origins in the same diabolical temptation to devide humanity and separate men from each other and from God. It has the same disastrous results, the suffering of the the most vulnerable.

History has proven time and again, that campaigns to defend any faith or culture through violence have only hurt humanity. We saw it at the time of the Reformation. We saw it in Spain when the Jews and Muslims were driven out. We saw it in South America as entire cultures and their cultural wealth were exterminated. We saw in North America, the witch hunts and other horrible things that people did.

I believe that the message of St. Francis to the Sultan has as much value today as it did then. When the Sultan asked Francis if he came in the name of the Church, Francis responded in a rather queer manner, even for him. “No. I have not. I came in the name of Jesus Christ.” For 800 years Franciscan historians have tried to figure out why at this one point, Francis puts distance between himself and the Church.

After centuries of search, old letters written by the Sultan and by Brother Illuminato, who was with Francis, all seem to point to the same thing. Francis was not putting distance between himself and the Church. He was putting distance between himself and the Christian troops just a few miles away, because he realized that they did not faithfully represent the Church. However, to the Sultan, this was the only Church he knew. Later, the Sultan would write about what Francis taught him about the Church and how he learned to separate the Christian Church fromt he Christian Crusaders. The result was that he granted the Franciscans safe passage to Jerusalem through what is today Egypt and Jordan. Francis promised him not to proselytize to the Muslims and Jews, but to allow God to do his work. This last point, “God doing his work” was one thing on which both could agree.

It was not a perfect allliance, but it was the beginning. Several years later, the Custory of the Holy Land was created and given to the Franciscans, because the Muslims and the Jews would not tolerate any other Christian leadership for another hundred years or so, when things settled down a bit and trust grew. To this day, the Franciscans still run the Latin Custody of the Holy Land and they keep their promise to the Sultan. The Muslims in Egypt and Jordan have kept their promise to Francis. On the other side of Israel, where the struggle through violence continued, every Franciscan that tried to approach Israel from the East was murdered.

History proves that you cannot reform people through force. Francis left the Sultan with a different understanding of the term “Christian Church”. He had to separate himself from the violence and prove that he was a man of peace. Through trust, he gained the Sultan’s attention. We have no idea how deeply he may have influenced this young Sultan. He obviously made an impression, because this man wrote about his meeting with the “Holy Man from Assisi”.

We need to step back, acknowledge that our acestors made a mess of things. Roll up our sleeves and try to clean up the mess, not through violence or finger pointing, but through acts of great love and peace, like those of Francis of Assisi. He did not budge an inch in his faith. He did teach and learn.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Limerickman]

The story about the Sultan and St.Francis is great, Br. JR, OSF

 

[cemiller]

I like to use the term “our ancestors”, because that’s who we’re talking about. We’re not talking about Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Quakers, Puritans, etc. We’re talking about our ancestors. If there were one of each group at a round table, we’d have to admit that our ancestors made a mess of things.

I believe that if we think of it this way, it minimizes the finger pointing and blaming of people who were not there and puts the problem where it belongs, at the feet of the people who were there. I believe that all of us, Catholics and Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox, are victims of our ancestors. The broken bond of unity is now our inherited problem to fix.

I’m going to answer this as a Franciscan. Though St. Francis, his sons and daughters have always abored all forms of violence, we have never been known for discriminating when it comes to violence. In other words, violence, whether it comes from Muslim extremists or Christian extremists is the same sin, has its origins in the same diabolical temptation to devide humanity and separate men from each other and from God. It has the same disastrous results, the suffering of the the most vulnerable.

History has proven time and again, that campaigns to defend any faith or culture through violence have only hurt humanity. We saw it at the time of the Reformation. We saw it in Spain when the Jews and Muslims were driven out. We saw it in South America as entire cultures and their cultural wealth were exterminated. We saw in North America, the witch hunts and other horrible things that people did.

I believe that the message of St. Francis to the Sultan has as much value today as it did then. When the Sultan asked Francis if he came in the name of the Church, Francis responded in a rather queer manner, even for him. “No. I have not. I came in the name of Jesus Christ.” For 800 years Franciscan historians have tried to figure out why at this one point, Francis puts distance between himself and the Church.

After centuries of search, old letters written by the Sultan and by Brother Illuminato, who was with Francis, all seem to point to the same thing. Francis was not putting distance between himself and the Church. He was putting distance between himself and the Christian troops just a few miles away, because he realized that they did not faithfully represent the Church. However, to the Sultan, this was the only Church he knew. Later, the Sultan would write about what Francis taught him about the Church and how he learned to separate the Christian Church fromt he Christian Crusaders. The result was that he granted the Franciscans safe passage to Jerusalem through what is today Egypt and Jordan. Francis promised him not to proselytize to the Muslims and Jews, but to allow God to do his work. This last point, “God doing his work” was one thing on which both could agree.

It was not a perfect allliance, but it was the beginning. Several years later, the Custory of the Holy Land was created and given to the Franciscans, because the Muslims and the Jews would not tolerate any other Christian leadership for another hundred years or so, when things settled down a bit and trust grew. To this day, the Franciscans still run the Latin Custody of the Holy Land and they keep their promise to the Sultan. The Muslims in Egypt and Jordan have kept their promise to Francis. On the other side of Israel, where the struggle through violence continued, every Franciscan that tried to approach Israel from the East was murdered.

History proves that you cannot reform people through force. Francis left the Sultan with a different understanding of the term “Christian Church”. He had to separate himself from the violence and prove that he was a man of peace. Through trust, he gained the Sultan’s attention. We have no idea how deeply he may have influenced this young Sultan. He obviously made an impression, because this man wrote about his meeting with the “Holy Man from Assisi”.

We need to step back, acknowledge that our acestors made a mess of things. Roll up our sleeves and try to clean up the mess, not through violence or finger pointing, but through acts of great love and peace, like those of Francis of Assisi. He did not budge an inch in his faith. He did teach and learn.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Awesome story I’m not sure how the murders got brought into this conversation, but I do love the response.