The Reformation

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Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
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Of course it was an ugly side of the CC. BUT…I know you do not want to hear it,many methods of execution (burning,hanging,etc) were not inventions of the church. Case in point,crucifixion was not invented by Rome,but moreover,perfected by them.
 
Christ_Bearer said:
I am astonished at some of the responses. Thanks to those who are sorrowful for their forebears’ sins. I know I look back at mine with horror. Like the reformers’ persecution of Anabaptists and Southern Christians against blacks. But I can’t believe some of the ways that some of you are making excuses for this, or using special rhetorical devices to get around the question. Or maybe you just don’t really know history because you’ve been so insulated by Catholic history. It really appears that a lot of you do not know the full history of the reformation. It is sad that the Church split,yes, but at that time with all of the abuse happening, can you really blame them? How can you support a system that is systematically persecuting and killing people who want to translate the Bible into the common tongue of a certain people group. For crying out loud, under John Wycliff’s ministry there were parents burned at the stake for teaching their children the Lord’s prayer in English! Just pick up a copy of Fox’s book of Martyr’s and you’ll get a better idea (albeit being from a protestant viewpoint).

Nonetheless, we should all be horrified by these persecutions. I think mormonism is one of the biggest heresies to come out of the reformation, but I do not agree that mormons should have been or should be persecuted by Christians. We all need to value human life in all its forms.
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This came up on a disk I listened to from Scott Hahn, I think. That some protestants believe that the Catholic Church tried to prevent scripture from being translated.
 
Christ_Bearer said:
. . .Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
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Christ Bearer,
I don’t really think these types of discussion benefit anyone; and I don’t think one can get a clear view of history, if the actions of Catholics are isolated from the actions of Protestants, and others, at any given point in history.

Many horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity. There were certainly long periods of time when religion and politics were a lethal mix. They’re still a lethal mix, but wont’ go there.

We have to deal with where we are today.

Peace,
Anna
 
po18guy said:
We will answer if you tell us what happened to the anabaptists in Germany under the reformers.

This is silly.
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My point is that the State whether acting as agent for the Roman Church or for the Reformers killed people over their theology. Lutherans had martyrs as well as Catholics during the reign of Henry VIII, he didn’t care who he killed.
 
Regardless of what happened and to whom, the reformation was a sore spot(and still is)for Christianity. The bottom line however, is this:
KJV: Matthew Chapter 6

[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Can we not forgive and move forward, rather than being bogged down in carrying centuries-old grudges? Division in the Body of Christ is unacceptable, and the only way healing can begin is through forgiveness and unconditional love towards each other. just my :twocents:
 
Christ_Bearer said:
I am astonished at some of the responses. Thanks to those who are sorrowful for their forebears’ sins. I know I look back at mine with horror. Like the reformers’ persecution of Anabaptists and Southern Christians against blacks. But I can’t believe some of the ways that some of you are making excuses for this, or using special rhetorical devices to get around the question. Or maybe you just don’t really know history because you’ve been so insulated by Catholic history. It really appears that a lot of you do not know the full history of the reformation. It is sad that the Church split,yes, but at that time with all of the abuse happening, can you really blame them? How can you support a system that is systematically persecuting and killing people who want to translate the Bible into the common tongue of a certain people group. For crying out loud, under John Wycliff’s ministry there were parents burned at the stake for teaching their children the Lord’s prayer in English! Just pick up a copy of Fox’s book of Martyr’s and you’ll get a better idea (albeit being from a protestant viewpoint).
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Foxes Book of Martyrs is fiction from beginning to end. The Scriptures were translated into every language in the world by Catholics, in the 700s AD. Written English didn’t even exist yet - Catholic monks pretty much invented it, just as they invented the written forms of Cree, Inuit, Iroquois, and many others when they came to the New World.

There were plenty of Bibles in English, and people were certainly praying in English, and teaching their children to pray in English - according to excellent, scholarly translations.

But if parents were teaching their kids Wycliffe’s version of the Lord’s Prayer, you can understand why Church authorities would be concerned, right?
9 And thus ye schulen preye, Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name;
10 thi kyngdoom come to; be thi wille don in erthe as in heuene; 11 yyue to vs this dai oure breed ouer othir substaunce;
12 and foryyue to vs oure dettis, as we foryyuen to oure dettouris; and lede vs not in to temptacioun,
13 but delyuere vs fro yuel.
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The man can’t even spell correctly … 😛

Seriously, though - “bread, or other substance”? That’s what you want to defend? :confused: He messed up the meaning - likely on purpose, since he would have been well aware that “daily bread” can also be understood as a reference to the daily offering of the Eucharist at Mass, as well as our daily food.
 
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