The Responsorial Psalm ruins the flow of the liturgy

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Duesenberg said:
That may be so, but I am continually amazed at how teeny-tiny Eastern Catholic parishes (20ish-70ish members) always seem to have a ready supply of able chanters to chant the reading in plainchant. I have absolutely no question that if their tradition was specifically Gregorian chant, that they would have a number of Gregorian chanters ready as well.

I think it’s about desire, expectations simply making the effort.
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Between chanting a reading, and singing a Gradual (at least in the Roman rite), there is a big gulf of experience to acquire. Given that people no longer learn Latin in school, and that singing the Gradual was never really an expectation of a small parish choir, the learning curve will be rather steeper than someone working in an unbroken tradition.

I agree that music-wise, after Vatican II we rather (unnecessarily I might add) threw out the baby with the bathwater, but prior to the Council, given that the assembly was not really expected to participate in the chanting of any parts of the Mass (unless a dialogue Mass), the necessary skills were not that widespread outside the seminary or a monastery either.

But despair not, I know a number of scholas singing Gregorian chant at the Ordinary Form Mass. It ain’t dead yet, but there is quite a learning curve, take it from someone who helps form “novices” in our schola.
 
The best way to sing the psalm is either a Gregorian mode, or, Anglican chant. We use the Anglican Chant method - the parish knows several tunes, so we practise with the choir after Mass and at practise on Wednesday’s.
 
OraLabora said:
Between chanting a reading, and singing a Gradual (at least in the Roman rite), there is a big gulf of experience to acquire.
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I really don’t mean to be quarrelsome, but I think it’s more than doable. If the Gregorian chant is really presenting that many problems, teach the readers/cantors to chant in plainchant.

I truly am amazed how teeny-tiny Eastern Catholic parishes are able to train chanters, plenty of male acolytes, and even entire scholas, yet so many Latin Rite parishes make it sound like doing so is impossible. I think it has so much to do with expectations and drive.
 
Duesenberg said:
I really don’t mean to be quarrelsome, but I think it’s more than doable. If the Gregorian chant is really presenting that many problems, teach the readers/cantors to chant in plainchant.

I truly am amazed how teeny-tiny Eastern Catholic parishes are able to train chanters, plenty of male acolytes, and even entire scholas, yet so many Latin Rite parishes make it sound like doing so is impossible. I think it has so much to do with expectations and drive.
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One has to make the distinction between simply chanting Gregorian chant, and chanting it well. It takes years to form a monastic schola, and it will take years before a choir can acquire the skills to chant the Gradual appropriate for every Sunday as per the Graduale Romanum. Our schola has been around for 20 years (I’ve been part of it for 15 of those 20), and as we have new members almost on an annual basis, we can only master a few Graduals given the frequency at which we meet. Which is why for most parish choirs, singing the responsorial psalm with a Gregorian antiphon, on Gregorian tones, would be a better bet.

I can pretty much sing any Gradual you throw at me as long as I’m singing with people who know how as well (I’m a chorister, not a cantor), as I sing the Gradual every Sunday with the monks of the abbey (not doing the schola part, but the antiphon part).
 
nope i do not find the responsorial psalm to be a problem, considering they come out of the book of Psalms and are prayers, i find it more combersom and exhausting to have to stand up, and or kneel or exchange the sign of peace. It is bad enough to be forced to attend mass when you dont want to be there but then to have to go through physical movements that do not spiritually benefit oneself on top of it or offer complete strangers a sign of peace I find to be more of a " flow breaker " than anything. Not to mention if you run into a parish that offers a terrible contemporary service then it becomes more of a social sing along time than it is a religious mass.
 
superblue said:
nope i do not find the responsorial psalm to be a problem, considering they come out of the book of Psalms and are prayers, i find it more combersom and exhausting to have to stand up, and or kneel or exchange the sign of peace. It is bad enough to be forced to attend mass when you dont want to be there but then to have to go through physical movements that do not spiritually benefit oneself on top of it or offer complete strangers a sign of peace I find to be more of a " flow breaker " than anything. Not to mention if you run into a parish that offers a terrible contemporary service then it becomes more of a social sing along time than it is a religious mass.
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Thank you so much for sharing.
 
I didn’t say it did. I’m speaking of the NORM around here.
 
I’m sorry you feel this way.

However, having said that, we conform to the liturgy, the liturgy does not conform to us.

Whether we like the music, the priest, the Deacon, the person beside us is not the point of the Mass.

We go to hear God’s Word, be prayed for and to pray for others, to offer ourselves to the Lord, and to receive Him in Eucharist.

That happens REGARDLESS of the interior disposition of various people or preferences of various people.

I hope you find joy at the Mass in the future.
 
im not asking the liturgy to conform to me, i just prefer to be left alone and not forced to do things i dont want to do. ( and I am leaving matter as my final response, i didn’t want to engage in a conversation just wanted to state an opinion to the original poster , i am not interested in peoples responses to what I have to say less it is a response by the original poster, an i only mention that to help others not waste time in fretting over what i say. )
 
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No one is being forced.
I see plenty of people that sit by themselves and don’t interact with their brothers and sister in Christ. Which is sad. I can’t imagine coming to the house of the Lord and simply flat refusing to participate and acknowledge the goodness of the person beside you as a brother in Christ.
It’s doable. People do it all the time.
 
Have you ever been to the traditional Mass? There’s no “flow breakage” during the Mass, and you will be allowed to pray in peace without being judged for not shaking hands with a bunch of people! And, there is plenty of time to socialize after Mass!
 
OraLabora said:
One has to make the distinction between simply chanting Gregorian chant, and chanting it well.
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I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. Again, if Gregorian chant is really that overwhelming of a challenge to a parish, then implement another form of plainchant. Instead we usually hear no chant at all in the West, while tiny EC parishes have chanters (and a full contingent of male acolytes) that do a superb job.
 
R_H_Benson said:
Have you ever been to the traditional Mass? There’s no “flow breakage” during the Mass, and you will be allowed to pray in peace without being judged for not shaking hands with a bunch of people! And, there is plenty of time to socialize after Mass!
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One thing I find truly offensive is when discussing something about the OF Mass, that someone pops in and offers the EF Mass as some sort of silver bullet.

It’s not.

Not by a long shot (no pun.)

One of the reasons I’m not more of a fan of the EF Mass is due to its adherents feeling the need to constantly sell its virtues to others.
 
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I offered a suggestion pertinent to the issue which the poster to whom I was responding is experiencing. I’m sorry if it offends you. It wasn’t directed towards you. You have made your opinion of the Traditional Roman Rite of Mass quite evident.
 
Duesenberg said:
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. Again, if Gregorian chant is really that overwhelming of a challenge to a parish, then implement another form of plainchant. Instead we usually hear no chant at all in the West, while tiny EC parishes have chanters (and a full contingent of male acolytes) that do a superb job.
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I can’t speak for other rites… only for my 15 years experience as a chorister in a Gregorian schola in the Western Rite and oblate of a monastery for the same time period, that uses Gregorian chant daily. I can say that poorly done Gregorian chant sounds awful, and I’ve heard my share of awful chant, including in monasteries. On the other hand, beautifully done chant sounds, as you would expect, beautiful. One of our choristers belonged to an EF parish until most of them defected to the SSPX, and he said our schola sounds better.

What you said… implement another form of plainchant… is more or less what I suggested: use the responsorial psalm with Gregorian antiphons and melodies, or use the Graduale Simplex which is, as its title suggests, simpler. Or in the vernacular, the Simple English Propers.

It’s going to be a long time before a tiny parish in St-Louis-du-Ha-Ha (yes, the place really exists, look it up!) can adroitly chant the Gradual for each Sunday of the year. Or for that matter the offertories, which are usually even more difficult than the Gradual. These are basically the two most difficult pieces of the Sunday repertoire.

What a keen choir might be able to do is really rehearse a couple of Graduals that they roll out for special occasions, such as Christus Factus Est for Palm Sunday. But even then, training said choristers in Saint-Louis-du-Ha-Ha requires either bringing an expert, or sending the choristers out to the abbey I’m attached to, about the only expert source for learning Gregorian chant in Quebec. And the abbey is about 700 km away from the village of St-Louis-d’etc. Which is why Sacrosanctum Concilium says Gregorian chant should have pride of place in the Church, but doesn’t say it has to be in every place in the Church. Fortunately, there are many places where it is still used daily, and our abbey is one of them (a woman’s abbey near Montreal is another, as well as a nearby priory (soon to be raised to the status of abbey) in Westfield, Vermont, also of women.

Other than those two abbeys, about 3 or 4 scholas keep Gregorian chant on life support in this province.
 
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R_H_Benson said:
I offered a suggestion pertinent to the issue which the poster to whom I was responding is experiencing. I’m sorry if it offends you. It wasn’t directed towards you. You have made your opinion of the Traditional Roman Rite of Mass quite evident.
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The EF Mass has nothing to do with my original posting.
 
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