The rich have money -- and passion

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, I think you stated everything very well. Unfortunately, I don’t believe we as a society are doing anything to accomplish instilling the values of work and saving in our children.

I’m afraid that in many cases, you are right. So the question I am asking is, “How do we turn that around?”

Our families are in bad shape and that is the first place children learn life values. Fathers usually teach discipline, both behaviorally and fiscally (ofcourse mothers can too but fathers generally are the boundary setters) and many children do not know their fathers. So what are our schools teaching children about work/saving?

Not much.

My favorable horrible example is how in Catholic schools in Louisiana we had cast-off textbooks dating back 20 years. I remember math problems where we had to compare two cans of beans and determine which was the best buy.

In a subject called “Health” we learned you should buy day-old bread. It’s just as nutritious as fresh, but costs less.

Jump forward 40 years, and one of my highscool age daughters came home with a note – “The children are going on a field trip to the state capitol tomorrow, so they must dress appropriately. This means no jeans, except designer jeans.”

Wow! What kind of values does that teach?!?!

Now admittedly I have been out of high school (tough Catholic school at that) for 15 years but anecdotally all I hear about schools these days is they refrain from praising achievement, and try to remove competition from everything curricular (no honor role or valedictorians) and extracurricular (no winners or losers). You really have to instill in children a desire to compete and give them the feeling of accomplishment through merit rather than just telling everybody they’re special - ambition and desire are two traits that beat out almost all others in terms of being fiscally successful.

My 4-year old granddaughter refuses to accept winning a game. She says, “No, we both won.”

 

[Brian_C]

How is the post you reference “supply-side economics?”

So, should we NOT teach our kids “hard work and savings?”

There are many opportunities out there for people who are willing to hustle. My brother left a great full-time job (and 18 years toward retirement) with the National Guard with little in the way of savings b/c he didn’t want to leave his two girls and wife to go to Iraq. He got into the financial planning business on the ground floor level, knowing nothing about it. He spent many late nights meeting with clients on isolated farms in the middle of Illinois and Iowa. Now, just 6 years later, far beyond making up for what he thought was a great salary at $60k a year, he’s more than quadrupled that.

He needed no privileged background to do it. My father worked his whole life in a plywood mill and my mother as a clerk and bookkeeper in the local parish courthouse. Neither finished college. Growing up, we got nothing more than love and encouragement. My brothers and I each have jobs we love.

Most of us so worried about failure that we never take risks. That’s how many of the so-called rich make their money. You can accomplish great things often with just a dream and ambition. Sure, many people fail. But not to teach them to try seems beyond wrong.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And thus the problem I have with your original post. These people made their choices, people born with assets did not chose such. Either group is not representative of society, most simply do not fit in these 2 categories

I’m not sure I understand you. I agree that those who inherit wealth represent a tiny minority – most affluent people made it on their own.

And while those who dragged themselves out of poverty and became affluent may also be a minority, the means by which they did it – education, hard work, saving and investing – are open to all.

It appears the earlier post was misunderstood. All people are born with some resources, there is a strong correlation with resources to wealth. Well I guess that depends on the definition of affluent. I notice you seem to dismiss the concept of some restricting the affluence of others?

Yes – why should we put a ceiling on effort and thrift?

The system that does that is called communism – and it always produces a dictatorship.

Even in the US today this is a constant problem ( read the Wright Amendment, or the Byrd Amendment) I truly believe people suffer more from restriction than envoy.

Yes – one of the great difficulties in this country is that there are people actively working to hold others back.

 

[Brian_C]

My previous post was in reference to Vaclav’s post:

Quote:
To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place.

What are we doing to accomplish this?
That is just poor economics.

There is only so much capital from which one can draw the needed investments. The idea that “we can all be rich” or “we can all live well” is not very likely (or is really not feasible, without some redistribution of wealth).

Social Justice is not a lesson in supply-side economics. No matter how much one wishes it were.

 

[Vaclav]

How is the post you reference “supply-side economics?”

So, should we NOT teach our kids “hard work and savings?”

The post references millionaires, not just those with gainful employment and quality jobs. It also references “economics” which goes far beyond “hard work and savings” into academic theory and applied technique.

My hunch, based on how the argumnent was framed and the political catch phrases attached to it is that it is a “supply-side” theory (unless it is a reference to the dead monetarism of the early 80’s). If it is just a collection of slogans and not really a reference to economics, then I apologise.

He needed no privileged background to do it. My father worked his whole life in a plywood mill and my mother as a clerk and bookkeeper in the local parish courthouse. Neither finished college. Growing up, we got nothing more than love and encouragement. My brothers and I each have jobs we love.

OK.

Are we comparing backgrounds?

Most of us so worried about failure that we never take risks. That’s how many of the so-called rich make their money. You can accomplish great things often with just a dream and ambition. Sure, many people fail. But not to teach them to try seems beyond wrong.

What about the people who can’t even try? Let’s toss out the pretty slogans and the other rubbish and discuss the real poverty stricken people who barely scrape by - if even that.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The post references millionaires, not just those with gainful employment and quality jobs. It also references “economics” which goes far beyond “hard work and savings” into academic theory and applied technique.

The post references ordinary people who managed to reach the million mark – which isn’t all that much today. It illustrates how people can succeed with education, hard work, savings and investment.

With those attributes, we can turn people who are now on welfare into self-supporting citizens. That’s Social Justice.

 

[quasimodo]

Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez and others who adhere to his theology assert that for one to be truly committed to social justice one must become part of the oppressed, the marginalised, the proletariat; that those on the comfortable side of the poverty line can never be free of the ideologies of western capitalism that continue to oppress the poor.

From reading your post it is painfully obvious that you have never been truly poor. If you had ever experienced poverty you would understand how condescending your comments are.

With all due respect to the Good Father Gutierrez - he is an economic illiterate. Western Capitalism is not oppressing people today. In the past with monoplies and weak unions and the like - sure there was oppression. Today, real oppression (in the west anyway) is by the corrupt self styled populists, oligarchies, and socialists - who are often all the same people. Ditto in Africa and Asia … in spades.

Is being “poor” a requirement for commenting on it or having an opinion. What criteria do you propose for someone to have the right to comment or think about poverty? Do we need thought police to be sure only those approved by the Pure Poverty Party will ever have an opinion?

Only doctors who have had cancer can diagnos it?

“to be truly committed to social justice one must become part of the oppressed” This is utter **** of course.

 

[Vaclav]

The post references ordinary people who managed to reach the million mark – which isn’t all that much today. It illustrates how people can succeed with education, hard work, savings and investment.

And what is the percentage of the total population of the world who have are millionaires? Tell the people in East Saint Louis that they aren’t millionaires because they don’t work hard enough and aren’t saving and investing. Also, be sure and tell them that a million dollars isn’t much.

With those attributes, we can turn people who are now on welfare into self-supporting citizens. That’s Social Justice.

You do realise that not everyone can be a millionaire, correct?

 

[Brian_C]

Are we comparing backgrounds?

What about the people who can’t even try? Let’s toss out the pretty slogans and the other rubbish and discuss the real poverty stricken people who barely scrape by - if even that.

You said it was wrong to teach people they can improve their station with hard work. All I am saying is that I disagree.

I hope you get the big grudge off your shoulder and learn to be more charitable in your postings.

 

[catholicbuckeye]

And what is the percentage of the total population of the world who have are millionaires? Tell the people in East Saint Louis that they aren’t millionaires because they don’t work hard enough and aren’t saving and investing. Also, be sure and tell them that a million dollars isn’t much.

You do realise that not everyone can be a millionaire, correct?

No, not everyone can be a millionaire. But I always laugh when I hear that sort of argument. It reminds me of when Michael Moore was at a university telling the students there that you couldn’t make it in America today - ofcourse, Michael Moore is a living, breathing embodiment of exactly the opposite - that ANYONE can make it in this country and become a millionaire many times over. Does that mean everyone does? No. I haven’t. I still have debt in excess of savings. But I don’t begrudge people for hardwork or wish to reward laziness. I am working hard and hope to “make it” someday.

As far as percentage of population, I believe 1 in every 270 Americans is a millionaire; hooray for capitalism.

 

[Vaclav]

You said it was wrong to teach people they can improve their station with hard work. All I am saying is that I disagree.

I hope you get the big grudge off your shoulder and learn to be more charitable in your postings.

I apologise for coming across as being uncharitable.

Never did I say that it was wrong to teach people that they should not work hard. Where did I say that?

 

[vern_humphrey]

And what is the percentage of the total population of the world who have are millionaires?

Not nearly as high as it could be if eveyone had a first class education and a value system that included hard work, saving and investing.

Tell the people in East Saint Louis that they aren’t millionaires because they don’t work hard enough and aren’t saving and investing.

I always tell people – and I live and work with some very poor people – that the key to success is getting an education, working, saving and investing.

Why would I shrink from telling that to people in East Saint Louis?

Also, be sure and tell them that a million dollars isn’t much.

It would be no more than the truth. Consider that a person worth a million dollars has somewhere between a quarter and half that in his house. That leaves him $750K toi $500K to live on. At 6% interest, that would give him an income of $45K to $30K – a bit under the media income.

You do realise that not everyone can be a millionaire, correct?

There are those with physical and mental disabilities who cannot. There are many more who will not.

But no one in this country who is willing to get an education, work, save and invest is blocked.

 

[gmarie21]

I apologise for coming across as being uncharitable.

Never did I say that it was wrong to teach people that they should not work hard. Where did I say that?

I think that some here think poverty=laziness and ignorance and therefore if you defend those who are living in poverty you’re defending laziness and ignorance. All are wrong assumptions, obviously.

 

[buffalo]

Does social justice include poverty of spirit?

 

[Vaclav]

No, not everyone can be a millionaire. But I always laugh when I hear that sort of argument. It reminds me of when Michael Moore was at a university telling the students there that you couldn’t make it in America today - ofcourse, Michael Moore is a living, breathing embodiment of exactly the opposite - that ANYONE can make it in this country and become a millionaire many times over. Does that mean everyone does? No. I haven’t. I still have debt in excess of savings. But I don’t begrudge people for hardwork or wish to reward laziness. I am working hard and hope to “make it” someday.

As far as percentage of population, I believe 1 in every 270 Americans is a millionaire; hooray for capitalism.

OK.

I thought this was more of a discussion on economics, which by the way is what separates me from Michael Moore (among many other things I’m sure).

I have no grudges or chips on my shoulder. I am very happy to be a Catholic, and very much enjoy the Social Teachings of the Church.

Yet, I don’t believe that unfettered capitalism is the panacea of all ills, nor is America’s version necessarily superior to all others. There are of course, some very real problems with poverty in this country (as with many countries) and I am proud of the Church’s charitable work to deal with these.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think that some here think poverty=laziness and ignorance and therefore if you defend those who are living in poverty you’re defending laziness and ignorance. All are wrong assumptions, obviously.

Indeed.

We should stop trying to read each other’s minds and read the posts. No one calls the poor “lazy or ignorant.” And on the other side of the discussion no one is defending those qualities.

However, there are social attitudes that make people believe they “can’t make it.” And that those who succeed are somehow “cheating.”

We would do the next generation a great service if we could dispel those attitudes, convince them they can “make it” and insure they get the education they need – including a thorough understanding of the value of saving and investing.

 

[gmarie21]

OK.

I thought this was more of a discussion on economics, which by the way is what separates me from Michael Moore (among many other things I’m sure).

I have no grudges or chips on my shoulder. I am very happy to be a Catholic, and very much enjoy the Social Teachings of the Church.

Yet, I don’t believe that unfettered capitalism is the panacea of all ills, nor is America’s version necessarily superior to all others. There are of course, some very real problems with poverty in this country (as with many countries) and I am proud of the Church’s charitable work to deal with these.

You forgot to mention JPII’s concerns about both Communism/Socialism and Capitalism. Neither, according to those who are much wiser within the Church, are perfect for humankind.

 

[Vaclav]

I think that some here think poverty=laziness and ignorance and therefore if you defend those who are living in poverty you’re defending laziness and ignorance. All are wrong assumptions, obviously.

Which is interesting as that notion primarily arose from Calvinism and Calvinist theology and not from the Church.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Does social justice include poverty of spirit?

Social Justice focusses on social matters – material poverty and the causes thereof.

 

[Vaclav]

You forgot to mention JPII’s concerns about both Communism/Socialism and Capitalism. Neither, according to those who are much wiser within the Church, are perfect for humankind.

Very true.

There are not many nations left devoted to the former though, with the exception of Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

But I agree.