The Rich Man and Lazarus...Hell or Purgatory?

[Hope3]

So, what is it, did Jesus go to heaven that day He died to unlock the gates or did He not?

He unlocked the gates of heaven immediately after His death. Then He went to preach His gospel to the dead (bosom of Abraham) and to the spirits in prison (purgatory) before He escorted them to heaven.

It says nothing about heaven being called “rest.” If you do not have a preconceived notion that heaven is where the saved will go, you can never interpret “His rest” as being heaven on that passage.

If “His rest” is a place and we are to take the OT definition for it, here is one Scripture that says plainly and clearly what it is: “For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it” (Ps. 132:13-14).

This is why Jesus founded His Church and commanded the leaders He chose to preach His gospel. Hebrews 4:11, 2 Timothy 2:1-2

 

[Hope3]

The first explanation that I gave for soul and spirit was from a Catholic Bible Commentary.

I found another explanation for soul and spirit:

In one passage Scripture seems to distinguish “spirit” and “soul”: “May the God of peace himself make you perfectly holy and may you entirely, spirit, soul, and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thes 5:23). But we must make no sharp distinction between the two.

The human soul is “the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: ‘soul’ signifies the spiritual principal in man” (Catechism, No. 263). The word “spirit” points to the fact that we are created for a supernatural end" (No. 367). The two terms are complementary."

Taken from the September/October 2010 issue of The Catholic Answer (TCA)

 

[Mailman]

Yes, I would agree with you that this is what the writer of ECCL actually believed.

The OT writers wrote what they themselves “understood.” This ECCL writer did not understand what actually happens to people after their bodies die. The writer of ECCL did not understand that people’s spirits/souls are still alive and conscious after death. Since Jesus specifically told His listeners about what happened to the rich man and Lazarus after their bodily deaths, I will believe Him rather than the writer of ECCL 9:10. God revealed Himself to humanity slowly over the course of thousands of years.

So, what you are saying is that Scripture is NOT true forever and Jesus would NOT quote Eccl 9:10 because it is flawed?

Jesus’ body was dead, but not His soul/spirit. His Spirit went to preach to the “spirits” in prison/purgatory [1 Peter 3:18-20](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+3:18-20&version=NKJV) and also to the spirits in Abraham’s bosom. [1 Peter 4:6](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+4:6&version=NKJV)

1 Pet. 3:20 says this preaching to the “spirits in prison” happened “in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing…” What can you say about that?

1 Pet. 4:6 – Look at the context (v. 1-4). Peter is talking about living in sin [lusts of the flesh] and living “to the will of God” when he says in verse 5, “Who shall give account to judge the living and the dead.” Obviously what Peter meant by “the dead” are those living in sin because “the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23). And what he meant by “the living” are those living “to the will of God” because “… the gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23). So, what verse 6 is saying is that the Gospel is preached, not only to the righteous but to the wicked as well.

“Sleep” means “bodily” death. It does not mean that “dead” peoples’ spirits are actually sleeping like we sleep at night. The spirits of the dead are always conscious of what is going on. Jesus was a Spirit for eternity before He became Man and received His human body. The angels and demons are spirits only and they are conscious all the time. Humans have an added dimension of a human body to go along with their immortal souls/spirits and we receive our immortal souls/spirits at the time of conception.

I could not find this teaching in Scripture, so I don’t believe it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Soul, body, and spirit are what man is comprised. The “soul” of man is immortal and contains man’s heart/mind/understanding and will. “Spirit” in this Scripture is speaking of the “understanding” component of the immortal soul," and “soul” pertains to the “will” component of the immortal soul. “Body” is our flesh and blood that is the home of our soul and spirit. Soul (“will” as in “free will”) and spirit (understanding) are both components of the immortal Soul.

Paul here referred to the MIND in man when he used the word “spirit,” to the PHYSICAL LIFE when he used the word “soul” (see Rev. 8:9 where the same Greek word rendered “soul” in this text is translated “life,” referring to sea life, and Rev. 16:3 where it is translated “soul” but refers again to natural sea life), and to the FLESH when he used the word “body.” Paul was exhorting the Christians in that place to have their whole minds, lives and bodies preserved blameless – preserved from the penalty of sin, which is death – in anticipation of the coming of the Lord. (See also 2 Cor. 7:1).

Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

“Destroy” means “eternal condemnation” in this verse and “soul” means both the “will” and the “understanding” of man’s immortal soul.

Sometimes the “soul” of man is also called the “spirit” of man:

Mat. 10:28 is directly stating that even though one man may kill another, the killer cannot cause the ULTIMATE destruction of life. Mortal men can destroy human life, but God is going to resurrect everyone back to life.

The English word “soul” is translated from the Greek word psuche and the Hebrew word nephesh, both of which mean a living, breathing creature, when referring to man or animal. “Soul” never means something immortal in man or animal. It simply pertains to the life of all physical creatures.

In Lev. 17:11 the word translated “life” comes from the Hebrew word for “soul” and can be just accurately translated, “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood.” Jesus gave His soul (life’s blood) in payment for sin (Isa. 53:12). “Soul,” then, refers to the physical life in man or animals.

Jesus said the soul can be destroyed. Did he mean “eternal condemnation” – meaning being condemned forever without dying? Ezekiel twice said: “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And Paul said, “The wages of sin is death…” Yes, death, the absence of life, and not eternal condemnation without dying, is what Jesus meant by “destroy,” as clearly taught by His apostles and prophets.

 

[Mailman]

Today, we know scientifically, that the sun does not actually rise even though Scripture states that it did. Genesis 19:23, Judges 9:33

If Jesus says Scripture is “true forever” (John 10:35), then I would have to believe that such is the case because I acknowledge Him as Lord and His Word, the Truth. And if Scripture is true forever, then not a single line in the entire Bible is erroneous. So, when I come across a Scripture that seems to contradict either a PROVEN scientific fact or another plain text in Scripture, I would question my understanding of that Scripture rather than conclude that the sacred writer was not given enough revelation to have knowledge of the truth.

Gen. 19:23 – We are now half a century into the space age yet people still say, “the sun sets…” and “the sun rises…” Why? Why do people still use these expressions when we all know it is the rotation of earth that causes the rising and setting of the sun? Because we describe things in the reality we see it, that’s why. And God does the same in His Word so it would make sense to us experiencing it here on earth. Even our top scientific minds today use these same expressions when talking to their fellow scientists. But really, is there another way to say, “the sun rises at 6 in the morning” so it would be scientifically correct yet not sound silly in the process?

The earth is a globe so it has no “ends.” Psalm 2:8

I don’t see anything wrong with that applying it to a round earth and a human being so miniscule in comparison to the earth he is standing on.

Psalm 104:5 “You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,”

The earth moves around the sun.

Has the earth moved from its assigned orbit around the sun? Yes, that is what God meant by that statement. He has set the earth and everything around it in their proper places so that the earth should not move from its assigned orbit. If it moves even just a little bit, the earth would either get scorching hot and extinguish all life or it could become a frozen wasteland.

Limbo “theory” was never made a doctrine. “Heliocentric” universe as “theory” was not “the” problem.

That’s what Catholics say for obvious reasons.

This is this man’s opinion of what transpired. The truth about all of this is more complicated than what is written in these two paragraphs.

Not just this man but practically all unbiased non-Catholic historians.

Jesus did not speak in parables with the express intention that some people would not be able to understand Him.

Mat.13:10-12 “And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Mark 4:10-13 "But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that ‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

This is a Semitic way of speaking. God knew who would believe in Jesus’ teaching and who would not. Isaiah 6:9, 10

Let me ask you this. How should God say it, or how should He phrase His words, so that to you it means Jesus spoke in parables so people won’t understand Him?

Jesus still had to explain the parables to His apostles/disciples in order for them to understand them.

Of course, precisely because the parables were not easy to understand for everyone, including Christ’s disciples. Since the Holy Spirit was not yet given, Jesus had to explain what the parables meant to His disciples and those whom He chose to have that knowledge.

The particular judgment is when a persons meets Jesus at the instant of death. He will go immediately to either heaven, purgatory, or hell. Hebrews 9:27

That text does not say “the judgment” will take place immediately after a man dies. All it says is that after our death we face “the judgment” – when that will be, it does not say. We have to go to other scriptures to find out when that Day of Judgment will be.

The general judgment is on the last day, the Day of Jesus’ Second Coming and it is when we will all see how well all of us cooperated with God’s salvation plan during the whole history of mankind. All of us sheep or goats are judged by Jesus who sits on the great white throne. Matthew 25:31-46

So, am I right in saying that your church does not teach a “Day of Judgment” but two days of judgment?

 

[Mailman]

The “New Jerusalem” depicted in the Book of Revelation is symbolic for the spiritual aspects of Jesus’ post-Resurrection Church (in heaven). Hebrews 12:18-24 Notice that the writer of Hebrews is speaking of the Church which is also the new Jerusalem and the new Mt. Zion **on earth **(“you have come”).

The writer of Hebrews is speaking about a future time when those in God’s Church will enter the Holy City, New Jerusalem. Notice that Rev. 21:1-2 says this New Jerusalem will not be coming down to this earth until after the millennium (1,000 years after the Second Coming) when there will be a “new heaven and a new earth.” If the new Jerusalem is here now, then Christ has already come back.

If you will notice in verse 28, entering the Holy City is synonymous with receiving the Kingdom of God. God’s Kingdom will be inherited only when Christ returns as the following passage clearly shows:

“When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,” – notice this is the second coming of Christ – “then shall shall He sit upon the throne of His glory… then” – and not until then – “shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:31-34).

The “physical” kingdom of God is in heaven.

Matthew 20:20-24 "Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him.
21 And He said to her, “What do you wish?”
She said to Him, **“Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom.” **
22 But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
They said to Him, “We are able.”
23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; **but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.” **
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers.

Where is Jesus right now? Acts 7:55, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 10:12

It is true that Jesus is in heaven right now at the right hand of the Father; however, the passage you quoted does not say that the Kingdom being spoken of will be in heaven. You are reading something into the text that is not there.

Jesus stated that He was going to prepare a place for them in His Father’s house and His Father’s house is in heaven.

John 14:1-3 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” NIV

I have given my explanation to this passage in my previous post. I would appreciate it if you could tell me what is wrong with it rather than use the text again to reiterate your view.

No human had ever ascended into heaven before Jesus’ death. The “Word” descended from heaven in order to be born of a virgin as “Jesus, the Word Incarnate.”

Those words of Scripture were spoken before Jesus’ death and resurrection. The angels always could travel between heaven and earth. Genesis 28:12, Matthew 18:10

Sorry, I may not have made it clear enough. What I was trying to say was that Jesus’ statement does not say no one has gone to heaven before His death, thereby hinting that after His death people started going there.

 

[Mailman]

No, I do not agree. The Paradise of God is in heaven.

So, what is wrong with the proof I presented of the Paradise of God not being in heaven? And where do you think the new Jerusalem will be located – here on earth or up in heaven?

Immortal spirits of human beings are there now with God in heaven (Paradise).

Our change into immortality is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:53. When will this change happen? The previous verse (v.52) tells us that this change will happen “AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Now, when will the trumpet sound to usher in our change into immortality? “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16). Clearly, the trumpet will sound at Christ’s second coming and then “the dead in Christ shall rise first” to “be raised incorruptible” – to IMMORTALITY.

Now, if these Scriptures be true, then no immortal spirits of human beings are now in heaven.

Jesus’ kingdom in this world (earth) is within the hearts and minds and souls of His followers. Luke 17:21

To whom is Jesus speaking in Luke 17:21? Wasn’t He speaking to the Pharisees who asked Him the question? Now, could the Kingdom of God be “within the hearts and minds and souls” of these unconverted, hypocritical, lying Pharisees? And were these Pharisees Jesus’ followers?

If you have a Bible with the marginal references, you will notice that the Greek words translated into the English words “within you” is alternately rendered “in the midst of you,” or “among you.” The context indicates that this indeed is the better translation.

The Greek word entos, translated “within,” is better translated “in the midst of” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Within”). Several translations, including the NASB, MKJV and LITV, translate Christ’s words as “the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Or, in the RSV, “the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” The ISV renders it, “For the kingdom of God is among you,” the same as in the New RSV.

Jesus was not talking about sentiments in the mind or heart. He was talking about His reign as the Messiah. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the King of the future Kingdom was, then and there, standing in the midst of them (notice all translations render it present tense). He warned them that they were so spiritually blind that they could not recognize the very personification of that Kingdom in Him, the very King of the Kingdom they had been waiting to reign on earth.

Jesus never returns to earth to rule in Israel in Jerusalem. He only rules in the heavenly Jerusalem which is His Church in heaven.

So, you don’t believe what is written in the Scriptures?

“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion” (Ps. 2:6).

“And it shall come to pass that everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year, to worship the King, the LORD of hosts…whoso will not come up… unto Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts… ” (Zec. 14:16).

“But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains… and people shall flow unto it… And many nations shall come, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob…for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Mic. 4:1-2).

Yes. [2 John 1:9](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 John+1:9&version=NKJV)

If Jesus’ bosom is the same as the Father’s bosom is Jesus, then, in His own bosom on that text in John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Is this what the text is telling us? – No man has seen Jesus Christ, but He Himself, who is also His own Son, who is in His own bosom, he has declared Himself.

Yes, Moses is a descendant of Moses.

If the reason why “Moses’ bosom” means the same as “Abraham’s bosom” is because Moses is a descendant of Abraham, then it follows that any Jew’s bosom would be the same as Abraham’s bosom, right? Therefore, Judas’ [Iscariot] bosom (Judas being a Jew) could also mean Abraham’s bosom?

On that passage in Numbers 11:12, Moses was to carry the Israelites in his bosom “unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers.” If Moses’ bosom means the same as Abraham’s bosom, then this “land which thou swarest unto their fathers” is the same place where souls go before entering heaven [Abraham’s bosom], right? So, what you are saying is that God promised Abraham and his descendants this place called purgatory/ limbo?

 

[Mailman]

He unlocked the gates of heaven immediately after His death. Then He went to preach His gospel to the dead (bosom of Abraham) and to the spirits in prison (purgatory) before He escorted them to heaven.

Why did Jesus not allow King David to enter heaven then? Peter tells us that on that day at Pentecost at the founding of the NT Church, “David is not ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:34).

 

[Hope3]

So, what you are saying is that Scripture is NOT true forever and Jesus would NOT quote Eccl 9:10 because it is flawed?

Eccl 9:10 “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.”

You can do no work after death that will help you to inherit eternal life. There is knowledge and wisdom after death, but they are not of the type that will help you to inherit eternal life. You are judged immediately after you die and this judgment is everlasting. Hebrews 9:27

A “covenant” is “forever” for as long as it is in force. If one party breaks the covenant, then it is no longer in force. If the covenant is fulfilled, then it is no longer in force. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and then He made a better (new) covenant to take its place. His new covenant is truly everlasting because He will not break His covenant.

Scripture can and does have historical errors. Queen Maachah is listed as both King Asa’s grandmother [1 Kings 15:13](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Kings+15:13&version=NKJV), and also as his mother. [2 Chronicles 15:16](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Chronicles+15:16&version=NKJV) She is actually Abijam’s mother [1 Kings 15:1-3](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Kings+15:1-3&version=NKJV) and Asa’s grandmother.

1 Pet. 3:20 says this preaching to the “spirits in prison” happened “in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing…” What can you say about that?

Peter is saying that while Jesus was in the grave awaiting His resurrection from the dead, He went and preached to the spirits/souls of the persons who were in prison/purgatory and some of these souls/spirits were the repentant persons who had drowned during the Great Flood while Noah was living safely on the ark. This means that some of these persons in prison/purgatory had been there for about 2000 years earth time before Jesus went to preach to them.

1 Pet. 4:6 – Look at the context (v. 1-4). Peter is talking about living in sin [lusts of the flesh] and living “to the will of God” when he says in verse 5, “Who shall give account to judge the living and the dead.” Obviously what Peter meant by “the dead” are those living in sin because “the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23). And what he meant by “the living” are those living “to the will of God” because “… the gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23). So, what verse 6 is saying is that the Gospel is preached, not only to the righteous but to the wicked as well.

I disagree. Peter states “also” [in addition to]. The gospel is preached to the living on earth, but while Jesus was in the grave awaiting His resurrection, He went to preach to all the dead, those in purgatory and those in Abraham’s bosom so that they would understand that they only received their salvation because of His sacrifice on the cross. Acts 4:12

1 Pet. 4:6 “For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

I could not find this teaching in Scripture, so I don’t believe it.

Jesus clearly showed by His parable about the rich man and Lazarus that the spirits/souls of the dead are not sleeping (unconscious).

Mat. 10:28 is directly stating that even though one man may kill another, the killer cannot cause the ULTIMATE destruction of life. Mortal men can destroy human life, but God is going to resurrect everyone back to life.

Mat. 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

I disagree. All men, both the righteous and the wicked, will be resurrected from the dead (physical death) and will be given immortal bodies. The bodies and souls/spirits of the wicked will be tormented in hell forever. Destroy means to condemn to eternal torment. Revelation 20:10

The English word “soul” is translated from the Greek word psuche and the Hebrew word nephesh, both of which mean a living, breathing creature, when referring to man or animal. “Soul” never means something immortal in man or animal. It simply pertains to the life of all physical creatures.

In Lev. 17:11 the word translated “life” comes from the Hebrew word for “soul” and can be just accurately translated, “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood.” Jesus gave His soul (life’s blood) in payment for sin (Isa. 53:12). “Soul,” then, refers to the physical life in man or animals.

“Soul” can mean different things. It can simply mean a “person.” Acts 2:41 “Soul” can mean the “immortal spirit” of a person. Once created, it must always exist. Revelation 20:4 And “soul” can also mean the “life-giving blood” of a creature. When a dog dies, its soul no longer exists because the life of the dog is in its blood and the dog’s blood decays along with the rest of the dog. Deuteronomy 12:23

to be continued…

 

[Hope3]

Continued:

Jesus said the soul can be destroyed. Did he mean “eternal condemnation” – meaning being condemned forever without dying? Ezekiel twice said: “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And Paul said, “The wages of sin is death…” Yes, death, the absence of life, and not eternal condemnation without dying, is what Jesus meant by “destroy,” as clearly taught by His apostles and prophets.

A persons’ immortal soul will always exist. “Destroyed” means “eternally condemned to the flames and torments of hell.” John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 14:9-11 Ezekiel was speaking of spiritual death. If the sinner repents, he shall once again have spiritual life. Ezekiel 33:12-20

 

[Hope3]

If Jesus says Scripture is “true forever” (John 10:35), then I would have to believe that such is the case because I acknowledge Him as Lord and His Word, the Truth. And if Scripture is true forever, then not a single line in the entire Bible is erroneous. So, when I come across a Scripture that seems to contradict either a PROVEN scientific fact or another plain text in Scripture, I would question my understanding of that Scripture rather than conclude that the sacred writer was not given enough revelation to have knowledge of the truth.

I already showed you that Scripture is sometimes inaccurate regarding historical details. I already showed you that “forever” does not always mean what you think it means.

Gen. 19:23 – We are now half a century into the space age yet people still say, “the sun sets…” and “the sun rises…” Why? …

Sure they do, but the people who lived in OT times did not know that the earth was globe-shaped and that it revolved around the sun. They actually believed that the sun literally “rose” every morning and that the earth was literally “flat.”

Has the earth moved from its assigned orbit around the sun? Yes, that is what God meant by that statement. He has set the earth and everything around it in their proper places so that the earth should not move from its assigned orbit. If it moves even just a little bit, the earth would either get scorching hot and extinguish all life or it could become a frozen wasteland.

God may allow shifts shifts in the earth’s orbit for His own purposes. Isaiah 55:8-9

That’s what Catholics say for obvious reasons.

Catholics say it because it is fact. Limbo was a theory, not a doctrine.

The heliocentric theory was put forth by the ancient Greeks. science.jrank.org/pages/3278/Heliocentric-Theory.html Later, Nicolaus Copernicus also believed in this theory:

"The heliocentric theory argues that the Sun is the central body of the solar system and perhaps of the universe. Everything else (planets and their satellites, asteroids, comets, etc.) revolves around it.

The first evidence of the theory is found in the writings of ancient Greece. Greek philosopher-scientists deduced by the sixth century B.C. that Earth is round (nearly spherical) from observations that during eclipses of the Moon, Earth’s shadow on the Moon is always a circle of about the same radius wherever the Moon is on the sky. Only a round body can always cast such a shadow." space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/iceage_orbit_wg.html

Not just this man but practically all unbiased non-Catholic historians.

Unless they have access to the archival documents pertaining to this case, they have no business making any sort of declarations about it.

Let me ask you this. How should God say it, or how should He phrase His words, so that to you it means Jesus spoke in parables so people won’t understand Him?

Parables are a method of teaching that use the ordinary things of the common life of man to help teach him about spiritual concepts. Farmers sow seeds. Farmers understand about weeds. Farmers understand about harvesting. Jesus used this method of teaching because this is what He wanted to do. His purpose was not to confound them. Jesus did not believe in speaking idle/worthless words. Matthew 12:36, Luke 24:10-12

Of course, precisely because the parables were not easy to understand for everyone, including Christ’s disciples. Since the Holy Spirit was not yet given, Jesus had to explain what the parables meant to His disciples and those whom He chose to have that knowledge.

Every person who has a “humble and contrite heart” is meant to know/understand the gospel so that he can obey it. Isaiah 57:15, [2 Thessalonians 1:7-9](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians+1:7-9&version=NKJV)

That text does not say “the judgment” will take place immediately after a man dies. All it says is that after our death we face “the judgment” – when that will be, it does not say. We have to go to other scriptures to find out when that Day of Judgment will be.

It does not have to. We can know from the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus that the Rich Man and Lazarus had both been judged after their deaths and that the rich man was already in hell and that Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom awaiting Jesus’ resurrection. Abraham stated that there was a great gulf permanently separating them which no one could cross.

Luke 16:26 “And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.”

So, am I right in saying that your church does not teach a “Day of Judgment” but two days of judgment?

There is only one Day chosen for the Final or General Judgment. On this day the books will be opened for all mankind to see. Revelation 20:12

 

[Hope3]

The writer of Hebrews is speaking about a future time when those in God’s Church will enter the Holy City, New Jerusalem. Notice that Rev. 21:1-2 says this New Jerusalem will not be coming down to this earth until after the millennium (1,000 years after the Second Coming) when there will be a “new heaven and a new earth.” If the new Jerusalem is here now, then Christ has already come back.

I disagree. This is present tense and He is speaking specifically to the recipients of his epistle/letter. The writer of Hebrews states: “YOU HAVE COME.”

Hebrews 12:22-23 “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

The Church on earth (the one with the Holy Eucharist) Hebrews 13:10, [1 Corinthians 11:28-30](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+11:28-30&version=NKJV) is the “spiritual” Mt. Zion/New Jerusalem. All worthy members of this Church will eventually enter into the “physical” New Jerusalem after the Judgment.

If you will notice in verse 28, entering the Holy City is synonymous with receiving the Kingdom of God. God’s Kingdom will be inherited only when Christ returns as the following passage clearly shows:

“When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,” – notice this is the second coming of Christ – “then shall shall He sit upon the throne of His glory… then” – and not until then – “shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:31-34).

Hebrews 12:28 “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.”

When a person on earth is in a state of sanctifying grace, he is already “spiritually” sharing in the kingdom of heaven in his soul. Luke 17:21 After he dies, he will “literally” share the kingdom of heaven with all other righteous persons who are in heaven with him.

It is true that Jesus is in heaven right now at the right hand of the Father; however, the passage you quoted does not say that the Kingdom being spoken of will be in heaven. You are reading something into the text that is not there.

Where is the Tree of Life? This tree is in Paradise/heaven of God and this same tree is also in the New Jerusalem, therefore the New Jerusalem is a part of the Paradise/heaven of God.

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” Revelation 22:1-5

I have given my explanation to this passage in my previous post. I would appreciate it if you could tell me what is wrong with it rather than use the text again to reiterate your view.

The New Jerusalem is a part of heaven/Paradise. It is not going to become a part of the earth.

Sorry, I may not have made it clear enough. What I was trying to say was that Jesus’ statement does not say no one has gone to heaven before His death, thereby hinting that after His death people started going there.

Jesus spoke the following statement before His death.

John 3:13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man”

Stephen was comforted and strengthened by the fact that his imminent martyrdom would result in his going to be with Jesus in heaven immediately after his death. Acts 7:54-60, Revelation 6:9-11

 

[Hope3]

Our change into immortality is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:53. When will this change happen? The previous verse (v.52) tells us that this change will happen “AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Now, when will the trumpet sound to usher in our change into immortality? “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16). Clearly, the trumpet will sound at Christ’s second coming and then “the dead in Christ shall rise first” to “be raised incorruptible” – to IMMORTALITY.

Now, if these Scriptures be true, then no immortal spirits of human beings are now in heaven.

1 Cor. 15:53 is speaking of the “mortal” physical bodies of the people who are still alive on earth when Jesus returns at His Second Coming. Their bodies becoming immortal have nothing to do with their spirits since their spirits have always been immortal. Look carefully, the saints and angels in heaven will be accompanying Jesus on His return to earth. Jude 1:14-15, Mark 13:27

To whom is Jesus speaking in Luke 17:21? Wasn’t He speaking to the Pharisees who asked Him the question? Now, could the Kingdom of God be “within the hearts and minds and souls” of these unconverted, hypocritical, lying Pharisees? And were these Pharisees Jesus’ followers?

Jesus meant that the kingdom of God was already here in their midst available to all who repented of their sins and obeyed Him.

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.”

Mark 1:15 "and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

If you have a Bible with the marginal references, you will notice that the Greek words translated into the English words “within you” is alternately rendered “in the midst of you,” or “among you.” The context indicates that this indeed is the better translation.

The Greek word entos, translated “within,” is better translated “in the midst of” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Within”). Several translations, including the NASB, MKJV and LITV, translate Christ’s words as “the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Or, in the RSV, “the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” The ISV renders it, “For the kingdom of God is among you,” the same as in the New RSV.

Yes, it can definitely be understood in this way. However, it can definitely also be understood that a righteous person does belong to the “spiritual” kingdom of heaven while he is still on earth.

Jesus was not talking about sentiments in the mind or heart. He was talking about His reign as the Messiah. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the King of the future Kingdom was, then and there, standing in the midst of them (notice all translations render it present tense). He warned them that they were so spiritually blind that they could not recognize the very personification of that Kingdom in Him, the very King of the Kingdom they had been waiting to reign on earth.

Yes, Jesus is the Messiah; past, present, and future, and He is presently ruling His kingdom from heaven and He will rule it from heaven forevermore. Luke 22:68-70, Colossians 3:1-3

So, you don’t believe what is written in the Scriptures?

“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion” (Ps. 2:6).

The spiritual fulfillment is the new spiritual Mt. Zion/New Jerusalem which is His Church which I documented in a previous post. After His Second Coming, this New Jerusalem will also be a physical place in heaven/Paradise.

“And it shall come to pass that everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year, to worship the King, the LORD of hosts…whoso will not come up… unto Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts… ” (Zec. 14:16).

“But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains… and people shall flow unto it… And many nations shall come, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob…for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Mic. 4:1-2).

This is apocalyptic literature. It is not meant to be taken literally. This is speaking of the eschatological reign of Jesus Christ in heaven after His Second Coming and the Final Judgment.

to be continued…

 

[Hope3]

Continued:

If Jesus’ bosom is the same as the Father’s bosom is Jesus, then, in His own bosom on that text in John 1:18?

This is a figure of speech. Same bosom. Not meant to be taken literally. The Father and Jesus/Word are two of the three Persons who are the one Lord God. The Lord God is a Trinity of three Persons. John 17:20-22 Both the Father and the Son reside in heaven along with the Holy Spirit.

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Is this what the text is telling us? – No man has seen Jesus Christ, but He Himself, who is also His own Son, who is in His own bosom, he has declared Himself.

“God” means “God the Father” in this particular verse. There are three Persons in the Trinity of God: God the Father, God the Son/Word/Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit. [1 John 5:7](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+5:7&version=NKJV)

If the reason why “Moses’ bosom” means the same as “Abraham’s bosom” is because Moses is a descendant of Abraham, then it follows that any Jew’s bosom would be the same as Abraham’s bosom, right? Therefore, Judas’ [Iscariot] bosom (Judas being a Jew) could also mean Abraham’s bosom?

Abraham’s bosom no longer has people in it. Its former occupants are now all in heaven and have been since Jesus unlocked the gates of heaven by His death.

Judas is most likely in hell. Mark 14:21

On that passage in Numbers 11:12, Moses was to carry the Israelites in his bosom “unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers.” If Moses’ bosom means the same as Abraham’s bosom, then this “land which thou swarest unto their fathers” is the same place where souls go before entering heaven [Abraham’s bosom], right? So, what you are saying is that God promised Abraham and his descendants this place called purgatory/ limbo?

No, this is merely a figure of speech. God did not promise the Israelites a place under the earth in Hades called the Limbo of the Patriarchs otherwise known as Abraham’s bosom. God promised Abraham and the Israelites a literal area of land on earth. The Israelites entered into it after their 40 years wandering in the desert.
Numbers 34:2

 

[Hope3]

Why did Jesus not allow King David to enter heaven then? Peter tells us that on that day at Pentecost at the founding of the NT Church, “David is not ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:34).

If King David was a righteous man at the time of his death (we have no reason to believe that he was not), then he entered into heaven when Abraham did after Jesus died on the cross. Jesus first preached to them and explained who He was and that He redeemed them from Adam’s sin and then they were allowed to enter into heaven.

Acts 2:34-35 is merely repeating the words of Psalm 110:44 and so does and Matt 22:44.

King David actually wrote this Psalm 110:1 while he was still alive on earth. This was about 1000 years before the Word became Incarnate as Jesus so this is why King David had not yet ascended into heaven.

 

[PJM]

=Hope3;7049943]Yes, I would agree with you that this is what the writer of ECCL actually believed.

The OT writers wrote what they themselves “understood.” This ECCL writer did not understand what actually happens to people after their bodies die. The writer of ECCL did not understand that people’s spirits/souls are still alive and conscious after death. Since Jesus specifically told His listeners about what happened to the rich man and Lazarus after their bodily deaths, I will believe Him rather than the writer of ECCL 9:10. God revealed Himself to humanity slowly over the course of thousands of years.

“Sleep” means “bodily” death. It does not mean that “dead” peoples’ spirits are actually sleeping like we sleep at night. The spirits of the dead are always conscious of what is going on. Jesus was a Spirit for eternity before He became Man and received His human body. The angels and demons are spirits only and they are conscious all the time. Humans have an added dimension of a human body to go along with their immortal souls/spirits and we receive our immortal souls/spirits at the time of conception.

Soul, body, and spirit are what man is comprised. The “soul” of man is immortal and contains man’s heart/mind/understanding and will. “Spirit” in this Scripture is speaking of the “understanding” component of the immortal soul," and “soul” pertains to the “will” component of the immortal soul. “Body” is our flesh and blood that is the home of our soul and spirit. Soul (“will” as in “free will”) and spirit (understanding) are both components of the immortal Soul.

Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

“Destroy” means “eternal condemnation” in this verse and “soul” means both the “will” and the “understanding” of man’s immortal soul.

Sometimes the “soul” of man is also called the “spirit” of man:

Sometimes Scripture is very confusing.

In order for hell to be “hell,” requires a awareness of where one is, why one is there, and what one is missing. [By not seeing or being in the Divine Presence].

While our bodies are imortal until the Final Judgement and Ressurection of them; our minds, intellects, frewill and souls are indestructable SPIRITUAL GIFTS that fulfill God’s desire that we be “made in His image.” [Gen. 1: 26-27].

Indeed without these attributes being in place, hell would be FAR easier to endure.

As to Scripture sometimes being confussing. Tha friend is preciely why God gives this task to ONLY His CC, and GUIDES her personally to insure Her Truth.

**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God,[SINGULAR] which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” [SINGULAR].

Matt.16: 19 " I [JESUS] will give you[Peter and my Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **Matt.18: 18 **[SPEAKING TO ALL THE APOSTLES] “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The terms “binding and loosing” were Rabitical Terms, comonly used and enforceable at law for free and uninhibited governance of the Chruch made necessary by Christ Assendtion.

Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

It would be a practical impossibility to accomplish this task without the carism to translate the bible accurately, fully and truthfully. THUS Christ Himself along with the Holy Spirit [John 14] are ever present to insure the truths taught by the CC on all matters of Faith [Bible interpertation being a necessary and essentail key], and Morals.

John.17 Verses 14 to 19: " I{JESUS] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19] ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth." ***

NO OTHER CHURCH, NO OTHER RELIGION, NO OTHER FAITH HAS CHRIST HIMSELF TO GUARENTEE IT’S TRUTH ON ALL MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS. ONLY CHRIST CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND SO ONLY THIS CC CAN ACCURATELY, TRUTHFULLY AND FULLY EXPALIN THE BIBLE IN THE MANNER GOD HIMSELF INTENDS. So it has been, so it is, and so it shall continue to be.

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Cor. 4: 2 **“We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing"

Love and prayers,
Pat.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Hope3]

In order for hell to be “hell,” requires a awareness of where one is, why one is there, and what one is missing. [By not seeing or being in the Divine Presence]…

Well done! Matthew 25:21

 

[PJM]

=Mailman;7074111]So, what you are saying is that Scripture is NOT true forever and Jesus would NOT quote Eccl 9:10 because it is flawed?

1 Pet. 3:20 says this preaching to the “spirits in prison” happened “in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing…” What can you say about that?

1 Pet. 4:6 – Look at the context (v. 1-4). Peter is talking about living in sin [lusts of the flesh] and living “to the will of God” when he says in verse 5, “Who shall give account to judge the living and the dead.” Obviously what Peter meant by “the dead” are those living in sin because “the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23). And what he meant by “the living” are those living “to the will of God” because “… the gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23). So, what verse 6 is saying is that the Gospel is preached, not only to the righteous but to the wicked as well.

I could not find this teaching in Scripture, so I don’t believe it.

Paul here referred to the MIND in man when he used the word “spirit,” to the PHYSICAL LIFE when he used the word “soul” (see Rev. 8:9 where the same Greek word rendered “soul” in this text is translated “life,” referring to sea life, and Rev. 16:3 where it is translated “soul” but refers again to natural sea life), and to the FLESH when he used the word “body.” Paul was exhorting the Christians in that place to have their whole minds, lives and bodies preserved blameless – preserved from the penalty of sin, which is death – in anticipation of the coming of the Lord. (See also 2 Cor. 7:1).

Mat. 10:28 is directly stating that even though one man may kill another, the killer cannot cause the ULTIMATE destruction of life. Mortal men can destroy human life, but God is going to resurrect everyone back to life.

The English word “soul” is translated from the Greek word psuche and the Hebrew word nephesh, both of which mean a living, breathing creature, when referring to man or animal. “Soul” never means something immortal in man or animal. It simply pertains to the life of all physical creatures.

In Lev. 17:11 the word translated “life” comes from the Hebrew word for “soul” and can be just accurately translated, “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood.” Jesus gave His soul (life’s blood) in payment for sin (Isa. 53:12). “Soul,” then, refers to the physical life in man or animals.

Jesus said the soul can be destroyed. Did he mean “eternal condemnation” – meaning being condemned forever without dying? Ezekiel twice said: “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And Paul said, “The wages of sin is death…” Yes, death, the absence of life, and not eternal condemnation without dying, is what Jesus meant by “destroy,” as clearly taught by His apostles and prophets.

So friend,

Taking your logic to the next logical step. Are we to understand that you do not beleive in either Protestants or Catholics because neither apear in the bible?

 

[Amtrying]

I am very confused by this… In some part I read that this man was in purgatory because of the fact that he was feeling compassionate, compassion is a grace from God and all who are in hell are deprived from Gods graces! Thats interesting but idk am so confused I want to know what the church says here

 

[Hope3]

The rich man in hell did not have compassion on his brothers. He wanted to mitigate his own punishment due to the fact that he influenced his brothers by his own terrible example. If they end up in hell because of his terrible example (decadent lifestyle), then he will be punished for his part in their damnation.

Luke 17:2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

There are degrees of condemnation and each of these degrees has its corresponding degree of punishment:

Luke 20:47 who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

So, if his brothers are not condemned to hell, his own sufferings will not become greater than they are presently. If his brothers are condemned when they die, he will have to pay for the part he played in their condemnation and his sufferings will be greater than they are presently. This is why he does not want his brothers to be condemned to hell. Otherwise, he would love to see them in hell with him.

 

[esmac]

Bump.

I think the answer is no theologian is 100% certain whether the rich man was in hell or purgatory.

EWTN Catholic Q&A
The Rich Man and Lazarus
Question from Peter Cole on 08-30-2001:
Dear Father Echert, Last weekend at Mass our pastoral associate- a Sister- gave the talk at the homily time(I am well aware that this is against God’s law through the Church). She mentioned the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus and said that Lazarus was in a better part of Heaven than the rich man. Now, as a student with a BA in theology from Franciscan University, this strikes me as a misunderstanding of what Jesus was teaching. Jesus was saying that the rich man was in Hell because he ignored the needs of those in need. Does this not strike you as incorrect? One must wonder why so few believe in Hell any longer when they here this garbage.

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 08-31-2001:
The Rich Man was either in hell or in purgatory, as the analysis below will demonstrate. And, as you note, it is unlawful for anyone other than an ordained minister to preach at the time of the Gospel–a nun preaching is an act of defiance and disobedience to the authority of the Church and contrary to biblical teaching as well. The Gospel of St. Luke records: