The Rich Man and Lazarus...Hell or Purgatory?

[Hope3]

I think Patrick Madrid once made the point that the damned are incapable of charity, having irrevocably cut themselves off from the only source of love. The rich man’s desire to help his family was charitable. Therefore, he must not be damned, but only in Purgatory.

I think that’s an awful lot to read into the parable, but Patrick’s much smarter than me. FWIW.

Even though I do agree with most of what Patrick Madrid believes; in this case, I do not.

The Rich Man was not concerned with his brothers’ fate out of charity for them. He was concerned for himself alone because if they are damned because of his bad influence on them, then he will have to suffer more in hell when they are damned also. So, he would prefer they be saved instead of damned, but it is not out of his love for them that he desires this. Instead, he is fearful of the added punishment that will be inflicted upon himself in hell if later they do join him in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:33 “Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”

Matthew 12:36 “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.”

Mark 9:42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

Abraham displayed absolutely no pity for the Rich Man and this is because God had already condemned this man to hell for eternity.

 

[PJM]

=notredame_999;6965466][19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

[25] "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

[27] "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

[29] "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

[30] " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

[31] "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Is this hell or purgatory? It sounds terrible like it is hell, yet Pope Benedict I believe recently implied it was purgatory.

Your question is clarifed in verse 26.

[26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

Given the facts that one “cannot cross from there to here” it MUST BE HELL"

Were it Purgatory, one could, oncepurified an perfected make the move

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Yeah, I think you’re right.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Even though I do agree with most of what Patrick Madrid believes; in this case, I do not.

The Rich Man was not concerned with his brothers’ fate out of charity for them. He was concerned for himself alone because if they are damned because of his bad influence on them, then he will have to suffer more in hell when they are damned also. So, he would prefer they be saved instead of damned, but it is not out of his love for them that he desires this. Instead, he is fearful of the added punishment that will be inflicted upon himself in hell if later they do join him in hell.

You are adding something into the story that is not there. Nowhere does it say that his brothers are sinning because of his bad influence. Maybe he sinned because of their bad influence. Or, more likely, they were all raised improperly by their parents. We just don’t know because the passage doesn’t tell us. And since we do not know, we have to go by what is actually said:

1. The Rich Man expressed concern for his brothers. Compassion is grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces.
2. He interceded on behalf of his brothers. Those in hell do not intercede for us but those in purgatory do.
3. The damned are forever cut off from the saved. The Rich Man not only sees the saved, but he is able to communicate with them. Scripture has it that in heaven our happiness will be complete. How could you be completely happy if you see a loved one in hell in agony and constantly crying out to you for help?
   For these reasons, it is clear that the Rich Man was in purgatory.

 

[Cachonga]

Sir Knight:

we have to go by what is actually said:

Luke 16:22-23 - The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. (RSV emphasis mine). What part of “in Hades” indicates purgatory?

1. The Rich Man expressed concern for his brothers. Compassion is grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces.

What is your scriptural support for this claim?

1. He interceded on behalf of his brothers. Those in hell do not intercede for us but those in purgatory do.

But his “intercession” was directed to Abraham, not God; and it was not effective (if the prayers of people in purgatory as as effective, why should they even bother?).

How could you be completely happy if you see a loved one in hell in agony and constantly crying out to you for help?

How can you be completely happy in heaven knowing that there are untold numbers of people who are in the lake of fire? I guess God takes care of that in His own way.

Something else occurred to me as this topic has been discussed (it’s sort of related to the topic). Notice that Lazarus was taken by the angels directly to Abraham’s bosom (not purgatory). I would think this would make Lazarus a “catholic” saint, wouldn’t it? Or is Abraham’s bosom purgatory (probably bad news for Abraham)? Just something to think about.

 

[Mailman]

Mailman - what translation are you reading - because I can’t find any translation that says “every man in his own order” - rather “each in his own order” is phrased so as to highlight the distinction between “Christ” on the one hand, and “all others” on the other hand (not different resurrections for different men).

Here are a few:

**RSVCE | 1 Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

ESV | 1 Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

NIV | 1 Co 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

NRSV | 1 Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

KJV | 1 Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. **

I also checked the Greek - same result

Brian, I’m using the KJV. Your last entry (KJV) says “every man.” But it really doesn’t matter because the Greek can be translated either way. The DRB renders it “every one,” which is also correct. The thing is, however it’s translated, you cannot tell [with that one phrase alone] whether the order implied is 1) Christ, then “all others”, or 2) Christ, then the true Christians, and then the rest of humanity, or 3) something else.

But if you will notice the context, Paul here is talking to Christian converts. He opens with: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain” (v. 1-2).

The succeeding verses tell us that Paul is trying to strengthen the faith of these believers by preaching to them the truth about the resurrection and what it will be like to them [the true Christians]. So, he tells them that everyone – meaning, all those born human since they are subject to death, will be resurrected. But, he says, the order is Christ first [Christ having been born a human being also], and then “they that are Christ’s”, meaning the believers like themselves. Paul stops short of mentioning the resurrection of the non-believers and the disobedient.

So, when he says, “It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body” (v. 43-44)… And as we have borne the image of the earthy; we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (v. 49)”, he is referring to the resurrection for the true Christians, describing the kind of body they will have at their resurrection. Notice Paul continues with, “…this mortal must put on immortality” (v. 53). This could not apply to the wicked because “the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life…” (Rom. 6:23). So, clearly, the text in verse 23 only talks about the time order of the resurrection up to the resurrection of the just – Christ first, then the righteous dead. The others [those who have not heard of Christ, the non-believers, the disobedient, etc.] are not included.

 

[Mailman]

Mailman - I believe the 1,000 year (millenial) reign is Christ’s reign in heaven, and the Kingdom of God that came to earth at Pentacost - the 1,000 years being symbolic for a “long period of time”. The “first” resurrection is the literal resurrection of Christ and for men, the spiritual rebirth of those baptized in Christ.

At the end of this “long period of time” - Christ will return to judge the world - and all will be resurrected (the second resurrection) - bodily - some to eternal life, and some to eternal banishment from God’s presence.

There was also a partial “literal bodily resurrection” that occurred per scripture following Christ’s crucifiction.

Blessings,

Brian

If we are now on that 1,000-year “long period of time” then Satan has already been bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” (Rev. 20:3); he has been shut and sealed in that “bottomless pit” since that day at Pentecost. But look at man’s history the past 2,000 years. Does it show a world free from Satan’s influence?

The scriptures say Christ will reign on this earth: “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth” (Jer. 23:5). The saints will rule with Christ also on this earth: “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on this earth” (Rev. 5:10). That’s why in the “beatitudes” Christ said, “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5), which is really a quote from one of David’s psalms, “But the meek shall inherit the earth…” (Psa. 37:11).

Christ’s kingdom will be established only at His second coming: “When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” – notice it is only when the Son of Man shall come in his glory [the second coming] when He shall sit upon the throne of His kingdom – “And before him shall be gathered all the nations: … And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” Then notice what will happen next. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:31-34). Only when Christ comes the second time will the saints inherit the kingdom because that is the only time when they will be resurrected and Christ’s kingdom established.

There is a problem with your interpretation of the “first resurrection” being the literal resurrection of Christ. Notice that this would make all the prophecies from the first chapter of the book of Revelation up to verse 5 of the 20th chapter to have already been fulfilled when Christ’s resurrection took place. But this Revelation from Christ was given to the apostle John long after Christ’s resurrection and the first chapter says it was given “to show unto his [Christ’s] servants things which must shortly come to pass.” In other words, when John was given the revelation, the events have not yet happened. Notice verse 3 says, “Blessed… they that hear the words of this prophecy… for the time is near” showing all the prophecies about to be given was yet future.

God bless.

 

[Mailman]

Mailman,

God had not yet revealed to His people a clear understanding about the “resurrection” in the Old Testament and so there were different schools of thought about this subject during the time of Jesus. Some believed in a bodily Resurrection (Pharisees) and some did not (Sadducees). Mark 12:18-27

“27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

“Falling asleep” means “dying.” “Falling asleep” is an “Eastern culture” manner of speaking about dying (the cessation of life of the physical body). Acts 7:54-60 Stephen was actually stoned to death, but Scripture states that he “fell asleep.”

Please see my post #14.

People in the Old Testament times did not understand, like we do now, about what happens after death. Jesus explained more about it to them in this parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Our spirits are never ever destroyed and they are always conscious (aware of their surroundings). At the Resurrection (Jesus’ Second Coming), everyone, whether dead or alive, will receive resurrected, immortal bodies; whether people will be in heaven or hell for eternity makes no difference.

Can you show me some scriptures, or a scripture, that say something in us will never ever be destroyed and are always conscious even at death?

Also, at the Transfiguration, Moses who had died, and Elijah who had not died, appeared to Jesus, Peter, James, and John. No spirits are unconscious (literally asleep) after death. Matthew 17:1-4

Notice that as they were leaving the mountain, Jesus tells His disciples: “Tell the vision to no man” (Matt. 17:9). A vision is not a material reality but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. In vision Moses, Elijah and Jesus were seen in the glory of the resurrection. The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom. Days before, Jesus had said, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matt. 16:28). His disciples, with that vision, saw what it would be like in the coming Kingdom.

God bless.

 

[Hope3]

You are adding something into the story that is not there. Nowhere does it say that his brothers are sinning because of his bad influence. Maybe he sinned because of their bad influence. Or, more likely, they were all raised improperly by their parents. We just don’t know because the passage doesn’t tell us. And since we do not know, we have to go by what is actually said:

1. The Rich Man expressed concern for his brothers. Compassion is grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces.
2. He interceded on behalf of his brothers. Those in hell do not intercede for us but those in purgatory do.
3. The damned are forever cut off from the saved. The Rich Man not only sees the saved, but he is able to communicate with them. Scripture has it that in heaven our happiness will be complete. How could you be completely happy if you see a loved one in hell in agony and constantly crying out to you for help?
   For these reasons, it is clear that the Rich Man was in purgatory.

You are assuming that his motive for his brothrers’ salvation is pure in intention. [1 Corinthians 4:5](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+4:5&version=NKJV) Why did Abraham refuse to help him? I certainly pray for the pour souls in order to help alleviate their sufferings. [1 Timothy 2:1](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+2:1&version=NKJV) It seems to me then that the Rich Man is in hell since Abraham refused to take pity on him and help him.

 

[Mailman]

How could you be completely happy if you see a loved one in hell in agony and constantly crying out to you for help?

That is why a merciful God would NOT decree eternal life in torment to the incorrigibly wicked. The punishment revealed in the Bible is eternal DEATH – cessation of life forever. Eternal LIFE is something we do not have now. It is a GIFT of God given at the resurrection to those who obey Him. Eternal life and eternal death are contrasted all through the Bible.

 

[Robbinson]

If we are now on that 1,000-year “long period of time” then Satan has already been bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” (Rev. 20:3); he has been shut and sealed in that “bottomless pit” since that day at Pentecost. But look at man’s history the past 2,000 years. Does it show a world free from Satan’s influence?

The world is not free of “Satin’s influence” - only Satin himself is bound, not the other fallen angels and demonic forces who owe their allegience to Satan. Thus sin continues to abound in our world, wheat with weeds. When “Satin” returns, today’s problems will look like nothing compared to the “GREAT TRIBULATION” that occurs when Satin himself is loose.

The scriptures say Christ will reign on this earth: “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth” (Jer. 23:5). The saints will rule with Christ also on this earth: “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on this earth” (Rev. 5:10). That’s why in the “beatitudes” Christ said, “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5), which is really a quote from one of David’s psalms, “But the meek shall inherit the earth…” (Psa. 37:11).

Christ’s kingdom will be established only at His second coming: “When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” – notice it is only when the Son of Man shall come in his glory [the second coming] when He shall sit upon the throne of His kingdom – “And before him shall be gathered all the nations: … And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” Then notice what will happen next. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:31-34). Only when Christ comes the second time will the saints inherit the kingdom because that is the only time when they will be resurrected and Christ’s kingdom established.

Its not “either or” its “both”. Christ said the Kingdom of God was coming at his death and it would come, not as a kingdom “seen” but a kingdom in our hearts and it would come slowly and “grow” like a mustard seed - not a actual kingdom coming in a flash. However, when Christ returns for judgement (which is what he is returning for) he will create a “new heaven and a new earth” - in that sense, the saints “in heaven” will be ruling with him on “earth”

There is a problem with your interpretation of the “first resurrection” being the literal resurrection of Christ. Notice that this would make all the prophecies from the first chapter of the book of Revelation up to verse 5 of the 20th chapter to have already been fulfilled when Christ’s resurrection took place. But this Revelation from Christ was given to the apostle John long after Christ’s resurrection and the first chapter says it was given “to show unto his [Christ’s] servants things which must shortly come to pass.” In other words, when John was given the revelation, the events have not yet happened. Notice verse 3 says, “Blessed… they that hear the words of this prophecy… for the time is near” showing all the prophecies about to be given was yet future.

God bless.

I’ll have to study that out further- I dont have access to the appropriate resources for a few days - so I owe you a thoughtful reply on the last point.

Blessings

Brian

 

[Hope3]

Please see my post #14.
Can you show me some scriptures, or a scripture, that say something in us will never ever be destroyed and are always conscious even at death?

Did you wish me to address something specific in post #14?

Acts 14:21-22 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Man was created with an immortal soul “in the image and likeness of God.” Genesis 1:26 We can never, ever have the same exact divinity (immortality trait) as God has, but our souls cannot ever be destroyed because this is how He created us. This is why although the Rich Man’s spirit was in hell after he died, he was not being destroyed by the flames, only tormented by them. Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10 The damned are tormented forever and ever. Lazarus and Abraham were also fully conscious in paradise/bosom of Abraham while awaiting the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross so that they could then enter into heaven to be with God. John 3:13
When Scripture says “destroyed” as pertaining to souls, it means that the soul is spiritually dead (lacks spiritual life so it cannot enter into everlasing life) It does not mean that the soul and/or the resurrected body will be entirely consumed by hellfire and thereby exist no more. Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:47-48

God is (not was) the God of the “living” Abraham. Matthew 22:32 The marytrs and elders in heaven are fully conscious. Revelation 6:9-11 %between% The “cloud of witnesses” are the saints in heaven and they are fully conscious. Hebrews 12:1-3

Notice that as they were leaving the mountain, Jesus tells His disciples: “Tell the vision to no man” (Matt. 17:9). A vision is not a material reality but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. In vision Moses, Elijah and Jesus were seen in the glory of the resurrection. The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom. Days before, Jesus had said, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matt. 16:28). His disciples, with that vision, saw what it would be like in the coming Kingdom. God bless.

I understand what you are saying and I agree that this is a good definition of “vision.” It seemed so “real” that Peter asked if he should build tabernacles for them! Mark 9:5-6 “Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”— 6 because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid.”

May God bless you, too.

 

[Hope3]

Mailman,

RE: the “first resurrection”

Revelation 20:4-6 “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”

These priests are actually the saints (royal priesthood of believers) who are in heaven right now. [1 Peter 2:9](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+2:9&version=NKJV)

The first resurrection (v. 6) should be understood in a spiritual sense, meaning Baptism which regenerates man and gives him new life by freeing him from sin and making him a son of God. The second resurrection is the one that happens at the end of time, when the body is brought back to life and the human being, body and soul, enters into everlasting joy. The “rest of the dead” (v. 5) are those who have not received Baptism; they, too, will be raised up on the last day, to be judged according to their deeds.

Commentary is from The Navarre Bible New Testament.

 

[Cachonga]

Hope3:

The first resurrection (v. 6) should be understood in a spiritual

sense, meaning Baptism which regenerates man and gives him new life by freeing him from sin and making him a son of God. The second resurrection is the one that happens at the end of time, when the body is brought back to life and the human being, body and soul, enters into everlasting joy. The “rest of the dead” (v. 5) are those who have not received Baptism; they, too, will be raised up on the last day, to be judged according to their deeds. Commentary is from The Navarre Bible New Testament.

This may be straying off topic, but something doesn’t sound quite right here. If this is correct, then doesn’t verse 6 (“Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”) indicate that anyone who was baptized has assurance of salvation and entry into heaven? If not, what does it mean that the “second death has no power” over anyone who “has part in the first resurrection”?

 

[Mailman]

Did you wish me to address something specific in post #14?

Acts 14:21-22 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Are you saying this passage, specifically the text you bolded, indicates man has an immortal soul???

Man was created with an immortal soul “in the image and likeness of God.” Genesis 1:26

That text does not say man was created with an immortal soul. It says man was created in the image and likeness of God. No mention there of being made immortal or having an immortal soul. The Bible is clear that only God has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16).

Man was created in God’s “likeness”, meaning he has the same outward form and shape as God. Man was also made in the IMAGE of God. This refers to God’s mind and character. Man was created with the gift of mind power as well as character. These attributes make man different from the animals – the lower creatures of God’s creation.

We can never, ever have the same exact divinity (immortality trait) as God has, but our souls cannot ever be destroyed because this is how He created us.

Christ said both soul and body can be destroyed by hellfire (Matt. 10:28). If you don’t believe what that passage says, let me ask you this: How should the Bible say it (or how should it phrase a statement) so that for you, it would mean that the soul can be destroyed?

This is why although the Rich Man’s spirit was in hell after he died, he was not being destroyed by the flames, only tormented by them.

The parable does not say the rich man’s spirit was in “hell” after he died. It says the rich man died and was buried – no mention of his spirit going to “hell.” Then it says, “And in hell he lift up his eyes…” But what kind of hell was that? It wasn’t the kind of hell that “burn as an oven” (Mal. 4:1). Notice that when Jesus speaks of such a kind of hell, the word used is Gehenna (Mat. 10:28; 5:22; 5:30; 23:33). But in the parable, the Greek is Hades, which simply means the grave, or the place of burial in the ground.

What the parable is saying is that, in the place where he was buried, the rich man opened his eyes (in a resurrection) and saw the flames of fire nearby. Notice that he couldn’t have been in those flames already because he only asked for Lazarus to “dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue.” Wouldn’t you think the rich man would ask for at least a bucket of water to cool his whole body, not just his tongue if he were being burned alive in that fire?

Revelation 19:20. Revelation 20:10. The damned are tormented forever and ever.

Rev. 19:20 says the beast and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire, nothing more.

Rev. 20:10 says, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet [are], and shall be tormented for ever and ever.” The verb “are” is not in the original Greek, that’s why it’s in brackets/italics in the KJV. See an interlinear or any concordance. Properly translated the passage should read, “…where the beast and false prophet WERE CAST….”

Lazarus and Abraham were also fully conscious in paradise/bosom of Abraham while awaiting the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross so that they could then enter into heaven to be with God. John 3:13

How do you know that Lazarus and Abraham were waiting for the sacrifice of Jesus so that they could enter heaven? John 3:13 only says that no one has gone to heaven except Christ.

How could Abraham be in Abraham’s bosom when there’s only one Abraham? And how did you know Abraham’s bosom means paradise?

 

[Mailman]

When Scripture says “destroyed” as pertaining to souls, it means that the soul is spiritually dead (lacks spiritual life so it cannot enter into everlasing life) It does not mean that the soul and/or the resurrected body will be entirely consumed by hellfire and thereby exist no more. Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:47-48

Have you heard of an immortal worm? Or do you believe in an immortal worm? I thought you just said only man was created with an immortal soul?

God is (not was) the God of the “living” Abraham. Matthew 22:32.

“God is the God of the living” means that although the righteous are dead, they are as good as alive because there will be a resurrection of the dead and for the righteous, that resurrection is to life eternal.

The marytrs and elders in heaven are fully conscious.Revelation 6:9-11.

The entire description is symbolic. John saw this vision (he was seeing a heavenly enactment of what was to happen on earth) when Christ came to the Fifth Seal. The biblical interpretation of these “Seals” is given in Matthew 14 and the Fifth Seal according to Matt. 24:9-28 symbolizes the tribulation.

The tribulation came on the saints of God in type, during the Middle Ages, and it will come yet again. The souls crying “Avenge our blood” are analogous to Abel’s blood “crying unto God from the ground” (Gen. 4:10). Blood doesn’t talk. The representation is obviously not literal, but symbolic.

The “souls under the altar” are merely a symbolic representation of the martyrdom of the saints. Just as the blood of the bullock in the OT sacrifices was poured under the altar (Lev. 4:7), so these saints appear to John to be under the altar. Just as prayers of saints are compared to incense brought to a heavenly altar (Rev. 5:8; 8:3), so the prayers of these martyred saints come up to God’s altar, in symbolic vision.

The “cloud of witnesses” are the saints in heaven and they are fully conscious. Hebrews 12:1-3

That is merely speculation and has no biblical support.

I understand what you are saying and I agree that this is a good definition of “vision.” It seemed so “real” that Peter asked if he should build tabernacles for them! Mark 9:5-6 “Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”— 6 because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid.”

May God bless you, too.

So, you believe they were seeing the real thing?

God bless.

 

[Robbinson]

There is a problem with your interpretation of the “first resurrection” being the literal resurrection of Christ. Notice that this would make all the prophecies from the first chapter of the book of Revelation up to verse 5 of the 20th chapter to have already been fulfilled when Christ’s resurrection took place. But this Revelation from Christ was given to the apostle John long after Christ’s resurrection and the first chapter says it was given “to show unto his [Christ’s] servants things which must shortly come to pass.” In other words, when John was given the revelation, the events have not yet happened. Notice verse 3 says, “Blessed… they that hear the words of this prophecy… for the time is near” showing all the prophecies about to be given was yet future.

As I stated, the “firs resurrection” was the resurrection of Christ (and the spiritual resurrection of believers in Baptism). I don’t see any difficulty if Revelation speaks of things that have happened and what will happen - what has happened lays the foundation for what will come. A basic principale/teaching of virtually all Chrisitan traditions is that Christ was our “first fruits” of resurrection (the first resurrection) and scripture says this as well. "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." (1 Co 15:20–21). Which, by the way, is no “accident” as His resurrection occured on the Jewish feast of the “first fruits”.

Augstine can put this better than me - below was His thinking on the resurection from the City of God.

“The rest of them,” he says, “did not live.” For now is the hour when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live; and the rest of them shall not live. The words added, “until the thousand years are finished,” mean that they did not live in the time in which they ought to have lived by passing from death to life. And therefore, when the day of the bodily resurrection arrives, they shall come out of their graves, not to life, but to judgment, namely, to damnation, which is called the second death. For whosoever has not lived until the thousand years be finished, i.e., during this whole time in which the first resurrection is going on,—whosoever has not heard the voice of the Son of God, and passed from death to life,—that man shall certainly in the second resurrection, the resurrection of the flesh, pass with his flesh into the second death. For he goes to say “This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection,” or who experiences it. Now he experiences it who not only revives from the death of sin, but continues in this renewed life. “In these the second death hath no power.” Therefore it has power in the rest, of whom he said above, “The rest of them did not live until the thousand years were finished;” for in this whole intervening time called a thousand years, however lustily they lived in the body, they were not quickened to life out of that death in which their wickedness held them, so that by this revived life they should become partakers of the first resurrection, and so the second death should have no power over them.”
(Augustine - City of God)

 

[Hope3]

This may be straying off topic, but something doesn’t sound quite right here. If this is correct, then doesn’t verse 6 (“Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”) indicate that anyone who was baptized has assurance of salvation and entry into heaven? If not, what does it mean that the “second death has no power” over anyone who “has part in the first resurrection”?

I think this particular passage is referring to only the “baptized martyrs” (and “baptized other saints”) who are already in heaven and that it is not referring to those who are baptized and still living on earth.

Second death means eternal damnation. First, we die a physical death, then if condemned, we also die a spiritual death (loss of spiritual life/heaven for eternity).

Those persons who have not been baptized on earth by either water, desire, or blood are not allowed to enter into heaven after the second resurrection either.

 

[Hope3]

Are you saying this passage, specifically the text you bolded, indicates man has an immortal soul???

No, that was not what I was referring to. I meant that there will be no pre-millenial rapture to remove Christians from the earth before Antichrist begins his reign of terror on earth.

Christ said both soul and body can be destroyed by hellfire (Matt. 10:28). If you don’t believe what that passage says, let me ask you this: How should the Bible say it (or how should it phrase a statement) so that for you, it would mean that the soul can be destroyed?

The soul is immortal, otherwise Jesus would not say that He is going to prepare a place for us in His Father’s house so that we can live there after we die.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

Mark 9:45-47 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

This means a person is tormented in eternal hellfire (fire is not quenched) without ever being consumed/destroyed by the fire. (Worm never dies.)

The parable does not say the rich man’s spirit was in “hell” after he died. It says the rich man died and was buried – no mention of his spirit going to “hell.” Then it says, “And in hell he lift up his eyes…” But what kind of hell was that? It wasn’t the kind of hell that “burn as an oven” (Mal. 4:1). Notice that when Jesus speaks of such a kind of hell, the word used is Gehenna (Mat. 10:28; 5:22; 5:30; 23:33). But in the parable, the Greek is Hades, which simply means the grave, or the place of burial in the ground.

What the parable is saying is that, in the place where he was buried, the rich man opened his eyes (in a resurrection) and saw the flames of fire nearby. Notice that he couldn’t have been in those flames already because he only asked for Lazarus to “dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue.” Wouldn’t you think the rich man would ask for at least a bucket of water to cool his whole body, not just his tongue if he were being burned alive in that fire?

Cemeteries do not have “flames.” Hades is the abode of the dead and it is composed of three different places: hell/Gehenna; limbo/bosom of Abraham; and Purgatory/prison.

When a person dies, he is immediately judged (particular judgment) and then he is sent to either heaven, purgatory, or hell. The general or last judgment is for all people at the end of time so that everyone can see who is damned and who is saved.

Particular judgment: Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,”

Purgatory/prison: Luke 12:58-59

Hell/Gehenna and Limbo/Bosom of Abraham is shown in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Hell/Fire and brimstone (lake of fire): Revelation 19:20 “Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Revelation 20:10 “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Second death means condemnation and the loss of eternal life forever. Spiritual Death means the opposite of Spiritual Life. It is not a literal, physical death.

Rev. 19:20 says the beast and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire, nothing more.

Rev. 20:10 says, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet [are], and shall be tormented for ever and ever.” The verb “are” is not in the original Greek, that’s why it’s in brackets/italics in the KJV. See an interlinear or any concordance. Properly translated the passage should read, “…where the beast and false prophet WERE CAST….”

John was seeing the “future” in this vision and so he saw that the devil was cast into the same fire that the beast and the false prophet were previously cast into shortly before.

How do you know that Lazarus and Abraham were waiting for the sacrifice of Jesus so that they could enter heaven? John 3:13 only says that no one has gone to heaven except Christ.

If no human had ever ascended to His Father (God) in heaven, then no human being was in heaven yet before Jesus died.

 

[Hope3]

Continued:

How could Abraham be in Abraham’s bosom when there’s only one Abraham? And how did you know Abraham’s bosom means paradise?

Abraham’s bosom is a paradise-like place where there is “rest” and “consolation” for the righteous, but it is not heaven with God. It is named after Abraham because he is the father of the Israelites. Perhaps this is near the place or connected to the place where Enoch and Elijah were sent since they cannot be in the heaven with God at this point in time in history because Jesus had not died yet. This place is called “Limbo” because it is a “waiting place” for the righteous souls to reside in until the gates of heaven are re-opened. The sin of Adam caused the gates to be barred. Genesis 3:24