The Rich Man and Lazarus...Hell or Purgatory?

[Hope3]

Have you heard of an immortal worm? Or do you believe in an immortal worm? I thought you just said only man was created with an immortal soul?

He was quoting from the OT. Isaiah 66:24

Animals do not have the same type of souls as humans do. God can use anything He wants to use in hell to torment the damned. He is not limited by our man-made ideas or our human understanding. Isaiah 55:9

“God is the God of the living” means that although the righteous are dead, they are as good as alive because there will be a resurrection of the dead and for the righteous, that resurrection is to life eternal.

Only the bodies of the righteous are dead, not their immortal souls. They are conscious and serving God in heaven right now. Luke 23:43

The entire description is symbolic. John saw this vision (he was seeing a heavenly enactment of what was to happen on earth) when Christ came to the Fifth Seal. The biblical interpretation of these “Seals” is given in Matthew 14 and the Fifth Seal according to Matt. 24:9-28 symbolizes the tribulation.

The tribulation came on the saints of God in type, during the Middle Ages, and it will come yet again. The souls crying “Avenge our blood” are analogous to Abel’s blood “crying unto God from the ground” (Gen. 4:10). Blood doesn’t talk. The representation is obviously not literal, but symbolic.

The “souls under the altar” are merely a symbolic representation of the martyrdom of the saints. Just as the blood of the bullock in the OT sacrifices was poured under the altar (Lev. 4:7), so these saints appear to John to be under the altar. Just as prayers of saints are compared to incense brought to a heavenly altar (Rev. 5:8; 8:3), so the prayers of these martyred saints come up to God’s altar, in symbolic vision.

Yes, it is symbolic, but it depicts a spiritual truth. Many things and events that are fulfilled competely in the NT were pre-figured at least once in the OT. Also, part of John’s vision was historical such as the depiction of the fall of the angels. Revelation 12:7-9 The events depicted in the Book of Revelation are not in chronological order.

That is merely speculation and has no biblical support.

Paul is speaking of the patriarchs as being this cloud of witnesses and this includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. These men are the cloud of witnesses who surround the Church. Hebrews 11 When Hebrews was written, there were no chapter and verse notations. It was one long letter.

So, you believe they were seeing the real thing? God bless.

They were seeing something that they did not fully understand and neither do I fully understand it and since I was not there personally, I can only say that it was definitely a real “vision.” May God bless you, too.

 

[Hope3]

A basic principale/teaching of virtually all Chrisitan traditions is that Christ was our “first fruits” of resurrection (the first resurrection) and scripture says this as well. "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." (1 Co 15:20–21). Which, by the way, is no “accident” as His resurrection occured on the Jewish feast of the “first fruits”.

Thank you. I had not heard about this Jewish feast sharing the same day as the Resurrection. How well it fits with NT Scripture. “New Testament concealed/hidden in the Old Testament and the Old Testament revealed in the New Testament.”

 

[Mailman]

A basic principale/teaching of virtually all Chrisitan traditions is that Christ was our “first fruits” of resurrection (the first resurrection) and scripture says this as well. "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." (1 Co 15:20–21). Which, by the way, is no “accident” as His resurrection occured on the Jewish feast of the “first fruits”.

I am with you on this, except the one about Christ being on that “first resurrection” [found in Revelation] just because He is the firstfruits.

Augstine can put this better than me - below was His thinking on the resurection from the City of God.

“The rest of them,” he says, “did not live.” For now is the hour when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live; and the rest of them shall not live. The words added, “until the thousand years are finished,” mean that they did not live in the time in which they ought to have lived by passing from death to life. And therefore, when the day of the bodily resurrection arrives, they shall come out of their graves, not to life, but to judgment, namely, to damnation, which is called the second death. For whosoever has not lived until the thousand years be finished, i.e., during this whole time in which the first resurrection is going on,—whosoever has not heard the voice of the Son of God, and passed from death to life,—that man shall certainly in the second resurrection, the resurrection of the flesh, pass with his flesh into the second death. For he goes to say “This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection,” or who experiences it. Now he experiences it who not only revives from the death of sin, but continues in this renewed life. “In these the second death hath no power.” Therefore it has power in the rest, of whom he said above, “The rest of them did not live until the thousand years were finished;” for in this whole intervening time called a thousand years, however lustily they lived in the body, they were not quickened to life out of that death in which their wickedness held them, so that by this revived life they should become partakers of the first resurrection, and so the second death should have no power over them.”
(Augustine - City of God)

Brian, I’m sure you can put it better than Augustine. I can’t understand what he’s saying. Just give it to me in plain and simple English. Thanks.

 

[Mailman]

The soul is immortal, otherwise Jesus would not say that He is going to prepare a place for us in His Father’s house so that we can live there after we die.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

When Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you”, who is the “you” He was referring to? Are they not the true Christians, those who have been faithful to Him until the end?

Mark 9:45-47 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

This means a person is tormented in eternal hellfire (fire is not quenched) without ever being consumed/destroyed by the fire. (Worm never dies.)

The passage does not say anything about a person being tormented forever in “the fire that shall never be quenched.” It only says the person will be cast into that fire.

Now, when do worms normally appear on a person’s body? It’s when that body is dead and decaying, right? Therefore the fact that worms are present tells us that those thrown into this hellfire would die and decay.

Now, about these worms that do not die - I’ve asked you whether you believe in immortal worms but I didn’t get a straight answer. I can understand your difficulty because then God would have made these worms also in His image and likeness [which to you means having some immortality trait]. Let me tell you what I believe about this “worm that does not die” and the “fire that is not quenched” and see if it makes some sense.

Whenever Jesus speaks of a hellfire for the wicked, He uses the word “Gehenna.” Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, was located outside of Jerusalem and was a place where trash, filth, and dead bodies of animals and even criminals were thrown. This place, of course, teemed with worms or maggots because it fed on the dead bodies and other organic matter deposited there. It was to these worms that Jesus was referring when He said “their worm does not die.” But Jesus didn’t mean that each individual worm continued to live forever.

Maggots, as we all know are the larvae which develop from the eggs of flies. They are in this stage only for a few days, feeding on dead bodies before they pupate and finally emerge as flies. Thus these worms “do not die” but continue to develop into flies just as any normal, healthy worm. The flies deposit their eggs only as long as there are dead bodies or other organic matter for the larvae to feed on.

This same reference to worms is found in Isaiah 66:24. Jesus’ statement, as you correctly stated, is a quote from this Isaiah verse. A careful reading of this particular verse shows that this is not talking of live people, but the “CARCASSES of the men that have transgressed against me.” They are not alive and consciously suffering and having immortal worms feasting on their immortal bodies.

Now, about the fire that “shall never be quenched”, does it mean burning forever and never burning up? Try burning a piece of paper. Now, don’t quench that fire, meaning don’t put it out for that’s what “quench” means. Pretty soon the paper will burn up. Then put it down on the floor and step on it. Now it’s merely ashes under the soles of your feet – just what the Bible says the wicked shall be (Mal. 4:3). In Jeremiah 17:27, God warned the Jews that Jerusalem would be burned, and the fire would not be quenched – unless they repented. In Jeremiah 52:13, you read the account of the burning of Jerusalem. That was not quenched, but you can see that it is not still burning. It just burned itself out.

God, through His servant Jude, gave us a perfect example of the effect of eternal fire. “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah… giving themselves to fornication… are set forth for an EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE” (Jude 7). Now, are these cities still burning and yet not being burned up?

“Eternal fire” means a fire whose results are permanent or everlasting. Sodom and Gomorrah have never been rebuilt. The fires which burned those cities went out of themselves. Clearly, there is no question as to what the Bible means by an everlasting fire.

 

[Mailman]

Cemeteries do not have “flames.” Hades is the abode of the dead and it is composed of three different places: hell/Gehenna; limbo/bosom of Abraham; and Purgatory/prison.

Not all the dead are in cemeteries. The dead are also in the bottom of the ocean and in many other such unlikely places. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. As such, its aim is to teach a lesson, not to be finicky with details of the events.

I don’t know where you got the idea about what Hades is composed of. But I’m sure it’s not taken from the Bible or any Greek lexicon.

When a person dies, he is immediately judged (particular judgment) and then he is sent to either heaven, purgatory, or hell. The general or last judgment is for all people at the end of time so that everyone can see who is damned and who is saved.

Particular judgment: Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,”

Purgatory/prison: Luke 12:58-59

Hell/Gehenna and Limbo/Bosom of Abraham is shown in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

I’m sorry, but I see these views as all speculation. You pull out a passage that is either vague or unrelated to the subject and then make an interpretation without any supporting scripture.

Hell/Fire and brimstone (lake of fire): Revelation 19:20 “Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Revelation 20:10 “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

The “are” and the “they” are not in the original Greek. “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [were], and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Only the devil shall be tormented forever.

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Second death means condemnation and the loss of eternal life forever.

Do you mean to say “the loss of spiritual life”? - because eternal life means to live forever.

Spiritual Death means the opposite of Spiritual Life. It is not a literal, physical death.

I guess what you are trying to say here is that the “second death” in Rev. 21:8 means spiritual death, which is not a literal physical death? If so, I would like to ask you why you think “second death” should be INTERPRETED to mean spiritual death and why it is wrong to just take the passage to mean what it says.

John was seeing the “future” in this vision and so he saw that the devil was cast into the same fire that the beast and the false prophet were previously cast into shortly before.

Yes, that’s right.

If no human had ever ascended to His Father (God) in heaven, then no human being was in heaven yet before Jesus died.

Yes, but how do you know that human beings were able to enter heaven after Jesus died?

 

[Mailman]

Continued:

Abraham’s bosom is a paradise-like place where there is “rest” and “consolation” for the righteous, but it is not heaven with God. It is named after Abraham because he is the father of the Israelites. Perhaps this is near the place or connected to the place where Enoch and Elijah were sent since they cannot be in the heaven with God at this point in time in history because Jesus had not died yet. This place is called “Limbo” because it is a “waiting place” for the righteous souls to reside in until the gates of heaven are re-opened. The sin of Adam caused the gates to be barred. Genesis 3:24

Thanks for the explanation. Are there any scriptures that will support the idea that “Abraham’s bosom” is a paradise-like place? And doesn’t Gen. 3:24 say it was the Garden of Eden that was closed? Wasn’t the Garden located on earth, not in heaven?

BTW, if the interpretation of “Abraham’s bosom” is a paradise-like place, what would be the interpretation of Moses’ bosom (Num. 11:12)? What about Jesus’ bosom (Isa. 40:11)? And there’s also “the Father’s bosom” (John 1:18).

 

[Mailman]

Only the bodies of the righteous are dead, not their immortal souls. They are conscious and serving God in heaven right now. Luke 23:43

So, you believe the thief on the cross went to heaven with Jesus that day?

Paul is speaking of the patriarchs as being this cloud of witnesses and this includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. These men are the cloud of witnesses who surround the Church. Hebrews 11 When Hebrews was written, there were no chapter and verse notations. It was one long letter.

What I was referring to as having no biblical support is that part about being fully conscious. Look at Hebrews 11:13. It says “These [the patriarchs] ALL DIED in faith NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES….” This was written years after Christ’s sacrifice and ascension, yet the patriarchs, at this time, were all still dead and have not received the promises.

They were seeing something that they did not fully understand and neither do I fully understand it and since I was not there personally, I can only say that it was definitely a real “vision.” May God bless you, too.

Well, here’s something to think about. If what they saw were the real Moses and Elijah, how did they know it was them when they were just souls/spirits and have no bodies yet? Or how could they even see them?

God bless.

 

[Mailman]

To those who believe that the dead are conscious in Hades/hell, how would you explain this Scripture which plainly says the dead are NOT conscious there?

“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is NO work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave sheol/hades] whither thou goest” (Eccl. 9:10).

It says there is NO KNOWLEDGE, nor is there WISDOM, in sheol, in other words NO CONSCIOUSNESS, NO MENTAL ACTIVITY. There is also no physical activity – “no work, nor device” – of any kind. It is a very dead place is what this Scripture plainly says.

Notice that the Hebrew word sheol translated “grave” in this verse is the same as the Greek hades translated “hell” in the NT. The proof is on these two verses:

NT: “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Greek *hades], neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption” (Acts 2:27), which is a quote from this OT verse -

OT: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hebrew *sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption” (Psalm 16:10).

That passage in Ecclesiastes also shows that sheol/hades is not “the abode of the dead” in the sense that dead spirits are walking around in a dark cavern somewhere in the heart of the earth. It is merely the grave where everyone goes when he dies.

 

[JamesPrentice]

Perhaps I misunderstood exactly what you were saying (it’s late and I’m tired), but it sounded like you were saying that the rich man might also be in Abraham’s bosom. I’m not sure when the Lake of Fire was created, but hell (and death) will be cast into it after the final judgment (see Rev 20:13-15). The point is that hell is a real place, and the rich man is there, and will remain there until he is judged and cast into the lake of fire. On the other hand, if purgatory is a real place, why didn’t Jesus tell us just as clearly about it as He did about heaven and hell?

I agree with you totally. There is a great deal of evidence for Purgatory. So much so that the Catholic church,from day one,believes it exists. As far as why Jesus did not tell us in clear terms of its existence I have no idea. But what I do know is this. The Apostles were given a great deal of information “via the Holy Ghost” that was never put in print. I think it was John who said something to the effect that if everything the Lord said was to be put in writing it could not be done. I apologize for not knowing the exact passage in scripture.
However, nowhere in the Bible do you hear Jesus saying that the earth is round, and not flat; that the earth revolves around the sun and the moon revolves around the earth. Furthermore, He could have given a better explanation of creation than what we witness in Genesis. .He could have also explained the existence of dinosaurs. He did not do any of those things. At least not to us. He may have told the Apostles. Who knows? One thing for sure…that information was not passed down to His church.
Put it this way. If God wanted us to know everything…He could very well have told us in no uncertain terms. If His Son, Jesus, wanted us to know everyrthing, in crystal clear lanquage, He would not have spoken in parables.
For whatever reason God wants to keep us quessing. And I wouldn’t rule out the possiblity that Satan has something to do with all this confusion.

 

[Cachonga]

JamesPrentice:

I agree with you totally. There is a great deal of evidence for Purgatory. So much so that the Catholic church,from day one,believes it exists. As far as why Jesus did not tell us in clear terms of its existence I have no idea. But what I do know is this. The Apostles were given a great deal of information “via the Holy Ghost” that was never put in print. I think it was John who said something to the effect that if everything the Lord said was to be put in writing it could not be done. I apologize for not knowing the exact passage in scripture.

First, I have yet to see any evidence for purgatory. The scriptures pointed to are usually just being taken out of context. Second, just because not everything Jesus said or did was written down doesn’t mean there are important things we need to know that are not written down. While Jesus did not command anyone to write things down, some men were inspired by the Holy Ghost to do just that. Surely God would not neglect to add something necessary to His word while inspiring men to write it down?

However, nowhere in the Bible do you hear Jesus saying that the earth is round, and not flat; that the earth revolves around the sun and the moon revolves around the earth. Furthermore, He could have given a better explanation of creation than what we witness in Genesis. .He could have also explained the existence of dinosaurs. He did not do any of those things. At least not to us. He may have told the Apostles. Who knows? One thing for sure…that information was not passed down to His church.

And how does this information about the world (which is temporary and passing) compare with information about what we should expect in the “real” (spiritual) world? I don’t need to know the answers to the questions you brought up in order to live a godly life and walk by faith, but I do know what to expect when I leave this life (heaven or hell), and I know this because the Bible makes it known to us. Granted, we do not know exactly what to expect, but I do know there is a real heaven and a real hell, but I have no evidence whatsoever for anything in between (other than the great chasm fixed between as described by Abraham in the verses in question).

Put it this way. If God wanted us to know everything…He could very well have told us in no uncertain terms. If His Son, Jesus, wanted us to know everyrthing, in crystal clear lanquage, He would not have spoken in parables.

I agree with you on this. However, I would also believe that God would tell us what we need to know in order to live the Christian life, and, in fact, that is exactly what we have in the Scriptures (even though I disagree with some of the OT books, but that’s a different topic).

For whatever reason God wants to keep us quessing. And I wouldn’t rule out the possiblity that Satan has something to do with all this confusion.

The same God who loves us enough to send His son to die a cruel, painful death on the cross so that we might have eternal life with Him wants to “keep us guessing”? Is this the Muslim god you are talking about? It’s certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac Jacob! You claim there is “a great deal of evidence for Pugatory. So much so that the Catholic church, from day one, believes it exists.”. Do you have any documentation that Jesus or the apostles taught on purgatory? If not, how can you make such a claim?

 

[Hope3]

I

Brian, I’m sure you can put it better than Augustine. I can’t understand what he’s saying. Just give it to me in plain and simple English. Thanks.

I’d prefer that also.

 

[Hope3]

When Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you”, who is the “you” He was referring to? Are they not the true Christians, those who have been faithful to Him until the end?

Yes. Only those who truly love Him (the ones who obey His commandments until they die) enter into eternal life.

Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” James 1:12

The passage does not say anything about a person being tormented forever in “the fire that shall never be quenched.” It only says the person will be cast into that fire.

Revelation 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." The beast and false prophet are humans.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” All the damned humans are tormented forever.

 

[Robbinson]

I’d prefer that also.

The “first resurrection” has a double fulfillment. Christ is resurrected “first” (bodily resurrection) which is the “first fruits” of our resurrection. With Him, those who believe and are baptized die with Him and are “resurrected” into new life in Christ (albiet not bodily) but spiritually. We “live” with Him in new life here and earth and when we die, we “live with him” in heaven. Those who do not know Him do not partake in this “first resurrection”.

As I posted earlier, the 1,000 years is a symbolic reference to a long period of time. Christ is reigning now in heaven, at the right hand of the Father in Heaven with the “saints” (believers who die and are now with Him in heaeven - our "cloud of witnessess).

Satin is “bound” now, but the world continues to suffer from demonic forces - but the “kingdom of God” on earth began, as a mustard seed, with Pentacost. We were told it would not “appear instantly”, but like a mustard seed grow - it is a Kingdom of the Heart which will have its final fulfillment upon Christ’s return and judgement. Prior to judgement, Satin will be released “for a while” leading to the Great Tribulation before Christ’s return.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of all, bodily, good and bad, at the time of Final Judgement on Christ’s return. At that time, those in faith will be resurrected to eternal life. Those not in faith will be resurrected to eternal banishment from the presence of God in the lake of fire prepared for Satin.

With judgement will come the “new heaven and new earth” the "new heavenly Jerusalem where Christ will reign forever as King.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Hope3]

Not all the dead are in cemeteries.

General statement to point out that “flames” are not part of a mere burial place.

I don’t know where you got the idea about what Hades is composed of. But I’m sure it’s not taken from the Bible or any Greek lexicon.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity

I’m sorry, but I see these views as all speculation. You pull out a passage that is either vague or unrelated to the subject and then make an interpretation without any supporting scripture.

We have the one Church who interprets her own Scriptures which she authored and she teaches us these things.

Do you mean to say “the loss of spiritual life”? - because eternal life means to live forever.

That is what I meant. Hell is for those who are spiritually “dead” meaning they do not have fellowhip (life) with God.

I guess what you are trying to say here is that the “second death” in Rev. 21:8 means spiritual death, which is not a literal physical death? If so, I would like to ask you why you think “second death” should be INTERPRETED to mean spiritual death and why it is wrong to just take the passage to mean what it says.

Yes, it is permanent spiritual death in hell. Second death is condemnation to hell for eternity. “The permanent loss of heaven” is the “second death.” Eternal life is in heaven with God so the second death means loss of spiritual life forever.

Yes, but how do you know that human beings were able to enter heaven after Jesus died?

They had to wait until Jesus redeemed them from Adam’s sin. Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin on the cross. Romans 5:6-19

 

[Hope3]

Thanks for the explanation. Are there any scriptures that will support the idea that “Abraham’s bosom” is a paradise-like place? And doesn’t Gen. 3:24 say it was the Garden of Eden that was closed? Wasn’t the Garden located on earth, not in heaven?

You are welcome.

Isaiah 57:1-2 “The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from evil.
2 He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.”

The Garden of Eden seems to have been located on earth and this place was not ever Abraham’s bosom. The Garden of Eden has never been found by any person since the time of Adam’s and Eve’s expulsion from it. Angels are guarding it:

Genesis 3:24 “So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Looks to me that the Tree of Life has since been moved to the heaven of God:

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”

BTW, if the interpretation of “Abraham’s bosom” is a paradise-like place, what would be the interpretation of Moses’ bosom (Num. 11:12)? What about Jesus’ bosom (Isa. 40:11)? And there’s also “the Father’s bosom” (John 1:18).

Moses’ bosom is the same as Abraham’s. Moses came after Abraham. Jesus’ bosom means to carry His sheep/lambs in His arms. Father’s bosom is Paradise of God in heaven.

 

[Hope3]

So, you believe the thief on the cross went to heaven with Jesus that day?

Yes, I believe that Jesus unlocked the gates as a result/fruit of redemption and He escorted all the righteous, all who were in limbo and purgatory, to heaven (even though He did not remain there in heaven Himself).

What I was referring to as having no biblical support is that part about being fully conscious. Look at Hebrews 11:13. It says “These [the patriarchs] ALL DIED in faith NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES….” This was written years after Christ’s sacrifice and ascension, yet the patriarchs, at this time, were all still dead and have not received the promises.

Our bodies die, but not our spirits. Just as Jesus stated, the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham were conscious. The “promises” were redemption and eternal life in heaven with God. The patriarchs’ bodies died and are no more at this point in time, but their spirits/souls were very much alive and conscious and they received these promises (entered heaven) as soon as Jesus died on the cross.

If what they saw were the real Moses and Elijah, how did they know it was them when they were just souls/spirits and have no bodies yet? Or how could they even see them?

God makes clearly known what He desires to be made clearly known. There was no doubt in the apostles’ minds that these two men were Moses and Elijah (Moses representing the Law and Elijah representing the Prophets).

Matthew 5:17, Luke 16:16, Luke 24:44

 

[Hope3]

To those who believe that the dead are conscious in Hades/hell, how would you explain this Scripture which plainly says the dead are NOT conscious there?

“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is NO work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave sheol/hades] whither thou goest” (Eccl. 9:10).

It says there is NO KNOWLEDGE, nor is there WISDOM, in sheol, in other words NO CONSCIOUSNESS, NO MENTAL ACTIVITY. There is also no physical activity – “no work, nor device” – of any kind. It is a very dead place is what this Scripture plainly says.

Notice that the Hebrew word sheol translated “grave” in this verse is the same as the Greek hades translated “hell” in the NT. The proof is on these two verses:

NT: “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Greek *hades

], neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption” (Acts 2:27), which is a quote from this OT verse -

OT: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hebrew *sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption” (Psalm 16:10).

That passage in Ecclesiastes also shows that sheol/hades is not “the abode of the dead” in the sense that dead spirits are walking around in a dark cavern somewhere in the heart of the earth. It is merely the grave where everyone goes when he dies.

The early OT persons were not given enough revelation from God to understand all the things that were eventually made known or made more clearly known in the NT. Jesus dispels all misunderstandings about “consciousness after death” when He relates the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. He also clears up some other misconceptions about life after death. Mark 12:20-25

 

[Robbinson]

Yes, I believe that Jesus unlocked the gates as a result/fruit of redemption and He escorted all the righteous, all who were in limbo and purgatory, to heaven (even though He did not remain there in heaven Himself).

Our bodies die, but not our spirits. Just as Jesus stated, the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham were conscious. The “promises” were redemption and eternal life in heaven with God. The patriarchs’ bodies died and are no more at this point in time, but their spirits/souls were very much alive and conscious and they received these promises (entered heaven) as soon as Jesus died on the cross.

God makes clearly known what He desires to be made clearly known. There was no doubt in the apostles’ minds that these two men were Moses and Elijah (Moses representing the Law and Elijah representing the Prophets).

Matthew 5:17, Luke 16:16, Luke 24:44

Agreed on all points.

The thief was promised to be with Christ in paradise"today" - not some time in the future after a 2,000 plus year hiatus.

The transfiguration is clear evidence that those who have died are conscious. This is supported by the parable of Abraham’s bossom (again, the dead are conscious) and by the passages in reveleation describing the saints in heaven who are clearly “aware” of what is transpiring on earth and they are “conscious” and conversing with Christ and sending the prayers of the saints on earth up to the Father.

It takes a fair amount of tortured exegesis to believe in the doctrine of soul sleep and anihilation given the plethora of verses which suggest otherwise.

Once again, we see the problem of interpreting scripture devoid of traditional understanding - the empirical problems associated with this are the 40,000 plus denominations yielding some awefully bizaaire doctrines - some having “reasonable” possible exegesis without the benefit under understanding historical teaching of the apostles and their disciples.

To be fair, I “understand” the “problem/issue”. If I tried to interpret scripture, my self, today, without historical understanding, studying the teachings of the Church and understanding of the apostles and their direct disciples, on this, and any number of other doctrines (rapture, double predesintation, communion of saints, purgatory, etc) I could come up with literally dozens of “possible” and potentially “reasonable” alternative interpretations. That is precisely why God replicated the “pattern of authrority” he established in the “old covenant” (the chair of moses) with a pattern of authority in the new covenant (Peter and the apostlles and their successors) . . . to preserve the truth and provide a guide by which the Church and its teachings could survive until Christ’s second coming.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Hope3]

The “first resurrection” has a double fulfillment. Christ is resurrected “first” (bodily resurrection) which is the “first fruits” of our resurrection. With Him, those who believe and are baptized die with Him and are “resurrected” into new life in Christ (albiet not bodily) but spiritually. We “live” with Him in new life here and earth and when we die, we “live with him” in heaven. Those who do not know Him do not partake in this “first resurrection”.

As I posted earlier, the 1,000 years is a symbolic reference to a long period of time. Christ is reigning now in heaven, at the right hand of the Father in Heaven with the “saints” (believers who die and are now with Him in heaeven - our "cloud of witnessess).

Satin is “bound” now, but the world continues to suffer from demonic forces - but the “kingdom of God” on earth began, as a mustard seed, with Pentacost. We were told it would not “appear instantly”, but like a mustard seed grow - it is a Kingdom of the Heart which will have its final fulfillment upon Christ’s return and judgement. Prior to judgement, Satin will be released “for a while” leading to the Great Tribulation before Christ’s return.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of all, bodily, good and bad, at the time of Final Judgement on Christ’s return. At that time, those in faith will be resurrected to eternal life. Those not in faith will be resurrected to eternal banishment from the presence of God in the lake of fire prepared for Satin.

With judgement will come the “new heaven and new earth” the "new heavenly Jerusalem where Christ will reign forever as King.

Blessings,

Brian

Good job! I agree with you. His Church on earth is attached spiritually to this heavenly Jerusalem right now.

Hebrews 12:22-24 " But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

 

[Bob_Crowley]

[19] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24]

Is this hell or purgatory? It sounds terrible like it is hell, yet Pope Benedict I believe recently implied it was purgatory.

It seems to me the text gives the answer. I’ve always understood it to be hell. Where people get the idea it’s purgatory, I don’t know. There is also an unbridgeable chasm, which implies hell as well.