The Rich Man and Lazarus...Hell or Purgatory?

[panevino]

To those who believe that the dead are conscious in Hades/hell, how would you explain this Scripture which plainly says the dead are NOT conscious there?

“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is NO work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave sheol/hades] whither thou goest” (Eccl. 9:10).

It says there is NO KNOWLEDGE, nor is there WISDOM, in sheol, in other words NO CONSCIOUSNESS, NO MENTAL ACTIVITY. There is also no physical activity – “no work, nor device” – of any kind. It is a very dead place is what this Scripture plainly says.

…

I believe the point of the verse and preceeding ones is to highglight that our works are accepted by God when we are alive and we should live life doing his will - ECC9:7-9 and that its too late once your dead.
It does not say that there is “no mental activity” …I assume the soul remains active to experience the not so nice surroundings of Hell…

 

[ZhaneAugustine]

my guess is that had the rich man been in purgatory then jesus would have added a third man who was likewise bad and truly in hell.

there are plenty of references in the bible where we read about prayers for those who have died, but nothing Abraham indicated that those would work for the rich man, hench he wouldn’t be in purgatory but hell.

also there seemed no sense of hope for the rich man, whereas any reference we read about purgatory is shown that while its prisionlike there is escape thus a hope. again, since i’ve never read anything that would indicate hope for the rich man, no knowledge of his that he’d get out, it implies hell to me.

 

[Mailman]

Revelation 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." The beast and false prophet are humans.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” All the damned humans are tormented forever.

I have commented on the first one *, so here’s for the second passage.

Verse 8 gives the time setting of Rev. 14:11. It is speaking about the impending fall of “Babylon.” Verses 9 and 10 say: “…If any man worship the beast and his image and receive his mark… he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone…in the presence of the Lamb” – that is, at Christ’s second coming.

Those who have a part in this system of “Babylon,” and who receive this punishment from God, have “no rest day nor night” as long as they remain in that land falling under God’s wrath. They will either have to flee that area and seek God’s mercy or be tormented by hellfire until they perish. Notice that this passage does not say these individuals are being tormented forever in an ever-burning hell. Verse 11 says: “…The SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever…” Smoke is what is given off by burned bodies, right?

Other passages clarify that the wicked will be completely destroyed, as in Mal. 4:1-3: “For, behold, the day cometh” – the time of the judgment, a future time – “that shall burn as an oven…” – the Gehenna hell fire – “and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch” (verse 1). This shows the wicked will not be tormented forever but will be burned up in the hellfire and turned into ashes. “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this [judgment day], saith the LORD of hosts.”*

 

[Mailman]

The “first resurrection” has a double fulfillment. Christ is resurrected “first” (bodily resurrection) which is the “first fruits” of our resurrection. With Him, those who believe and are baptized die with Him and are “resurrected” into new life in Christ (albiet not bodily) but spiritually. We “live” with Him in new life here and earth and when we die, we “live with him” in heaven. Those who do not know Him do not partake in this “first resurrection”.

Thanks for that… Can you please clarify these two points:

1. Are you saying the “first resurrection” has been continually occurring since the time of Christ’s resurrection, and will last until Christ’s second coming?
2. Are we on that “first resurrection” at the time of our baptism, or at the time of our death?

As I posted earlier, the 1,000 years is a symbolic reference to a long period of time. Christ is reigning now in heaven, at the right hand of the Father in Heaven with the “saints” (believers who die and are now with Him in heaeven - our "cloud of witnessess).

If God’s saints were all resurrected right after Christ’s resurrection (the “first resurrection”) and all of them went to heaven that same day, why is it that on that day at Pentecost, the apostle Peter declared that King David was still dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven?

Satin is “bound” now, but the world continues to suffer from demonic forces -

If Satan is bound now and had been bound since Christ’s resurrection [the “first resurrection”], why is it that years after Christ’s resurrection, we hear this warning from the apostle Peter concerning Satan, the devil: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Pet. 5:8).

but the “kingdom of God” on earth began, as a mustard seed, with Pentacost. We were told it would not “appear instantly”, but like a mustard seed grow - it is a Kingdom of the Heart which will have its final fulfillment upon Christ’s return and judgement.

I would not comment on this here because we would be way off topic.

Prior to judgement, Satin will be released “for a while” leading to the Great Tribulation before Christ’s return.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of all, bodily, good and bad, at the time of Final Judgement on Christ’s return. At that time, those in faith will be resurrected to eternal life. Those not in faith will be resurrected to eternal banishment from the presence of God in the lake of fire prepared for Satin.

The Bible does not say anything about a “spiritual” resurrection or “bodily” resurrection. All it mentions is a resurrection of the dead. How do you know that there are these two types of resurrections?

Are those resurrected on the “first resurrection” still dead or are they considered alive? (I know that’s a stupid question because “resurrect” means to bring back to life, but I’m asking it anyway because a person is supposed to undergo two resurrections.)

With judgement will come the “new heaven and new earth” the "new heavenly Jerusalem where Christ will reign forever as King.

Blessings,
Brian

What do you understand of this “new earth”? Is this the earth we’re now living in which will be renewed? Where will this “new heavenly Jerusalem” going to be located – on earth or in heaven? If Christ will rule as King then, who will be His subjects and where will they be living – on earth?

God bless.

 

[Mailman]

They had to wait until Jesus redeemed them from Adam’s sin. Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin on the cross. Romans 5:6-19

But that passage does not say the righteous will enter heaven. We cannot even find the word “heaven” on that passage. Maybe I should I ask this first: Where in Scripture can we find heaven promised as the reward of the saved? Then, we go to that question, “How do you know that human beings were able to enter heaven after Jesus died?”

 

[Mailman]

Looks to me that the Tree of Life has since been moved to the heaven of God:

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”

This “Paradise of God” is NOT in heaven.

Turn to Rev. 22:1-2. It says: “And he showed me a pure river of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life….”

Now, here we find the Tree of Life. Where is this located? It says it is where the “throne of God and of the Lamb” is situated. But is this “throne of God” the throne of God in heaven? No! In chapter 21 we find that this “throne of God and the Lamb” is in the holy city, New Jerusalem. And if we read verse 2, it says that John saw this New Jerusalem, “coming down from God out of Heaven prepared us a bride….” – in other words, coming down to this earth.

As Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you [the New Jerusalem, the place being prepared]… I will come again [come again to this earth]… so where I am [on this earth], you may be also [on this earth, not in heaven]” (John 14:2-3). And then again: “And behold, I am COMING quickly” – coming to this earth – “and My reward is with Me” – Jesus will bring His reward with Him to this earth – “to give to each as his work is” (Rev. 22:12).

Moses’ bosom is the same as Abraham’s. Moses came after Abraham. Jesus’ bosom means to carry His sheep/lambs in His arms. Father’s bosom is Paradise of God in heaven.

Really? Now, that’s interesting. But God is supposed to be a Trinity. Shouldn’t Jesus’ bosom be the same as the Father’s bosom? And how could Moses’ bosom be the same as Abraham’s bosom when Abraham is regarded as the father of all the faithful?

BTW, how do you interpret this injunction by the apostle Peter, the supposed first pope of the Catholic Church - “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Pet. 1:20)?

 

[Mailman]

Yes, I believe that Jesus unlocked the gates as a result/fruit of redemption and He escorted all the righteous, all who were in limbo and purgatory, to heaven (even though He did not remain there in heaven Himself).

But Jesus said He did not ascend to heaven yet on Sunday morning after His resurrection: “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father…” (John 20:17). How do you explain this?

Our bodies die, but not our spirits. Just as Jesus stated, the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham were conscious. The “promises” were redemption and eternal life in heaven with God. The patriarchs’ bodies died and are no more at this point in time, but their spirits/souls were very much alive and conscious and they received these promises (entered heaven) as soon as Jesus died on the cross.

The passage says the patriarchs died – in other words, the whole person died. There’s no mention of a spirit or soul or body. It’s the whole person that died and the whole person that did not receive the promises. Can you give me some scriptures that say man has a soul that is immortal which will depart from the body when it dies?

Where does it say in Scripture that eternal life in heaven was part of God’s promise?

 

[Mailman]

The early OT persons were not given enough revelation from God to understand all the things that were eventually made known or made more clearly known in the NT.

**How wrong you are! And do you know why?

It is because you do not know the Scriptures!**

That’s from Mark 12:24. And that’s exactly what Jesus would tell you if He were to appear to us today. If you haven’t already noticed, Jesus quotes Scripture [OT] all the time as if it were the very Word of God.

Even the Catholic Church admits that Jesus Christ and the Apostles confirmed the “Divine authority of every one of these books [the OT] and of every part of each book… for they supposed its TRUTH in their teaching, used it as a FOUNDATION of their doctrine, and intimately connected it with the religious system of which they were the founders.” That’s from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The same source further states that, “Christ made use of the Bible” – remember they only had the OT then – “He appealed to it as an IRREFRAGABLE AUTHORITY… The Apostles did in like manner… Both sides had access to the Scriptures in a text admitted by all, both recognized in them a Divine authority, as in the very word of God.”

If someone had asked Jesus then what it was like to be in sheol, He would surely have responded with something like this: “Have you not read…” (Mat. 12:50), or “It is written in the Scriptures….,” and then quote that Ecclesiastes passage. And if someone had questioned the truthfulness of that Scripture, Jesus would surely have this to say:

“What the Scripture says is TRUE FOREVER” (John 10:35, GNB).

Jesus dispels all misunderstandings about “consciousness after death” when He relates the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. He also clears up some other misconceptions about life after death. Mark 12:20-25

The way I see it, the problem with your theology is that you establish a doctrine by vague or difficult to be understood scriptures – and parables at that. You should begin with the plainer scriptures and reserve the more obscure ones until you have more knowledge. And you need to consider ALL the scriptures on any one subject to get at the truth, BUT –and this is very important – always begin with plain and clear scriptures.

Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables? Not because He wanted His audience to better understand Him, as what we have been taught in school (I studied in Catholic schools, yes), but because He did not want them to understand what He was teaching. The resurrection mentioned on that parable in Mark 12 is the resurrection of the just [only] to eternal life; it does not apply to all.

BTW, is this what you believe about the soul and what happens at death?

“The soul whose inseparable attribute is life will never admit of life’s opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible… Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death… Death is merely the separation of soul and body.”

 

[Mailman]

The thief was promised to be with Christ in paradise"today" - not some time in the future after a 2,000 plus year hiatus.

Properly punctuated, that verse should read: “Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.” By using the word “today,” Jesus was stressing the time of His promise – not the time He would be in Paradise.

According to The Companion Bible, Jesus’ reply, “Assuredly I say to you today” was “a common Hebrew idiom… which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis.” Since punctuations were not used in the inspired Greek in which Luke wrote, Jesus’ meaning could be distorted with incorrect punctuation and this Hebrew figure of speech obscured.

We should remember that Jesus had said: “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). Jesus’ rule, His government – the Paradise of God – is for the age to come. When Christ “comest into [His] kingdom,” it won’t be until His second coming because that is the time He will establish His Kingdom.

It takes a fair amount of tortured exegesis to believe in the doctrine of soul sleep and anihilation given the plethora of verses which suggest otherwise.

I can see a lot more verses [plainer and clear verses] supporting the doctrine that when men die, the whole person dies. In fact you cannot see one verse in Scripture that contains the words “immortal soul.” There is also no text in Scripture that says there is something in man that leaves the body when it dies to go on to live forever.

Once again, we see the problem of interpreting scripture devoid of traditional understanding - the empirical problems associated with this are the 40,000 plus denominations yielding some awefully bizaaire doctrines - some having “reasonable” possible exegesis without the benefit under understanding historical teaching of the apostles and their disciples.

The belief that there is something in man that is immortal is not biblical. The New Bible Dictionary gives a background of the unbiblical nature of this doctrine: “The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul…” (1996, “Resurrection”).

This concept of the immortality of the soul is not taught in the OT. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia confirms this: “We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament.” This is the reason why the Jews’ questions to Christ had always been how to have eternal life rather than how to enter heaven. Jesus, likewise, NEVER once mentioned heaven as the place where the righteous go after death.

The first-century Church also did not believe in the immortal soul doctrine. Edward Fudge, in The Fire That Consumes, says that, “The doctrine is increasingly regarded as a post-apostolic innovation…” If you have read about the background of most of the Catholic fathers, you would know that these people were steep in Greek philosophy. Christianity got the immortal soul doctrine from them and they in turn got this from the Greek philosophers. The Greeks, on the other hand, got that belief from the Egyptians, who were the first to embrace it (Herodotus, Euterpe)

Here’s more of what Fudge wrote: “The immortality of the soul was a principal doctrine of the Greek philosophers, Plato… In Plato’s thinking, the soul… was self-moving and indivisible… It existed before the body which it inhabited, and which it would survive.”

These teachings of Plato and other Greek philosophers profoundly influenced Christianity. Jeffrey Russell, in his book, A History of Heaven, states that “The unbiblical idea of immortality did not die but even flourished, because theologians… admired Greek philosophy [and] found support there for the notion of the immortal soul….”

 

[Mailman]

continued…

To be fair, I “understand” the “problem/issue”. If I tried to interpret scripture, my self, today, without historical understanding, studying the teachings of the Church and understanding of the apostles and their direct disciples, on this, and any number of other doctrines (rapture, double predesintation, communion of saints, purgatory, etc) I could come up with literally dozens of “possible” and potentially “reasonable” alternative interpretations. That is precisely why God replicated the “pattern of authrority” he established in the “old covenant” (the chair of moses) with a pattern of authority in the new covenant (Peter and the apostlles and their successors) . . . to preserve the truth and provide a guide by which the Church and its teachings could survive until Christ’s second coming.

Blessings,

Brian

I can also understand why people believe the RCC is the true church and so believe in anything it says even if this is not in harmony with the holy writings. I have been there and it took me a very, very long time to finally accept the truth.

God bless.

 

[Mailman]

I believe the point of the verse and preceeding ones is to highglight that our works are accepted by God when we are alive and we should live life doing his will - ECC9:7-9 and that its too late once your dead.
It does not say that there is “no mental activity” …I assume the soul remains active to experience the not so nice surroundings of Hell…

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. If you are reading that verse without knowing anything about what people believe about death and its aftermath, would you still say that that statement does not say that there is no mental activity?

 

[panevino]

Postedby mailman…There is also no text in Scripture that says there is something in man that leaves the body when it dies to go on to live forever…

Moses died - deut 34:7
Moses speaks to Jesus -mat 17:3

 

[Cachonga]

ZhaneAugustine:

there are plenty of references in the bible where we read about prayers for those who have died,

Really? Could you please provide some references (from what is accepted as Scripture by both Catholics and Protestants)! Remember, most Protestants do not accept books like Tobit, Judith, etc… as Scripture, so any references from these would be immediately dismissed.

 

[Robbinson]

continued…

I can also understand why people believe the RCC is the true church and so believe in anything it says even if this is not in harmony with the holy writings. I have been there and it took me a very, very long time to finally accept the truth.

God bless.

Mailman - LOL - I guess I’d have to take issue with the suggestion there is any Catholic teaching that is “not in harmony with the holy writings”. There are teachings that are not expressly contained within the scritpures (based upon our understanding that the Deposit of Faith also includes oral tradition and magisterium teaching) but not inconsistent with scripture.

This begs, of course, the larger question of what scripture is telling us (interpretation) - I’m sure you “interpret” many verses in ways inconsistent with Church teaching - but many will “interpret” those same verses differently than you. Catholic interpretation on core doctrines can trace consistency back to the time of the apostles - I don’t think you can say the same.

I don’t doubt your sincerity re: seeking (or thinking you have found) the truth. I sincerely believe the Catholic Church holds the fullest expression of the truth.

I suppose a fair question would be - if an apostle taught “x” and another “disciple”/"follower of Christ said, “not x, but y” - who would we be more inclined to believe given the authority given the apostles by Christ?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Robbinson]

Properly punctuated, that verse should read: “Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.” By using the word “today,” Jesus was stressing the time of His promise – not the time He would be in Paradise.

According to The Companion Bible, Jesus’ reply, “Assuredly I say to you today” was “a common Hebrew idiom… which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis.” Since punctuations were not used in the inspired Greek in which Luke wrote, Jesus’ meaning could be distorted with incorrect punctuation and this Hebrew figure of speech obscured.

We should remember that Jesus had said: “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). Jesus’ rule, His government – the Paradise of God – is for the age to come. When Christ “comest into [His] kingdom,” it won’t be until His second coming because that is the time He will establish His Kingdom.

I can see a lot more verses [plainer and clear verses] supporting the doctrine that when men die, the whole person dies. In fact you cannot see one verse in Scripture that contains the words “immortal soul.” There is also no text in Scripture that says there is something in man that leaves the body when it dies to go on to live forever.

The belief that there is something in man that is immortal is not biblical. The New Bible Dictionary gives a background of the unbiblical nature of this doctrine: “The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul…” (1996, “Resurrection”).

This concept of the immortality of the soul is not taught in the OT. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia confirms this: “We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament.” This is the reason why the Jews’ questions to Christ had always been how to have eternal life rather than how to enter heaven. Jesus, likewise, NEVER once mentioned heaven as the place where the righteous go after death.

The first-century Church also did not believe in the immortal soul doctrine. Edward Fudge, in The Fire That Consumes, says that, “The doctrine is increasingly regarded as a post-apostolic innovation…” If you have read about the background of most of the Catholic fathers, you would know that these people were steep in Greek philosophy. Christianity got the immortal soul doctrine from them and they in turn got this from the Greek philosophers. The Greeks, on the other hand, got that belief from the Egyptians, who were the first to embrace it (Herodotus, Euterpe)

Here’s more of what Fudge wrote: “The immortality of the soul was a principal doctrine of the Greek philosophers, Plato… In Plato’s thinking, the soul… was self-moving and indivisible… It existed before the body which it inhabited, and which it would survive.”

These teachings of Plato and other Greek philosophers profoundly influenced Christianity. Jeffrey Russell, in his book, A History of Heaven, states that “The unbiblical idea of immortality did not die but even flourished, because theologians… admired Greek philosophy [and] found support there for the notion of the immortal soul….”

Wow - you really have jumped into the your new theology, hook line and sinker. One of the interesting things about theology - if you study long enough, and spend enough time with effective communicators, you can find a “reasonable” basis for many divergent doctrines. The doctrines you are expousing have less support (scripturally, historically, and gramatically) than many others - but I understand them.

Why do you think God gave Moses authority of Israel and rejected Miriam and Aaron’s suggestion they had equal authority? And why do you think God rejected Korah’s suggestion that we are all “priests” with equal authority to Moses?

Why do you think God gave Peter and the apostles express authority to bind and lose and what “Church” do you think Jesus was describing when he described a “visible” Church one could go to to resolve disputes? And if not the Catholic Church (which has existed in apostolic succession since the birth of the Church at Pentacost) - where were folks to go to “resolve those disputes” and how does one disintinguish which “church” denomination “has it right”.

I’ll wager that you, in your sincere search, have held many divergent views on scripture than those you hold now - and imagine you will do so again in the future. Why? (its not personal to you) - because you don’t recognize authority and every denomination in history (which rejects apostolic authority) has ultimately splintered over internal disagreement over doctrine.

We can pray for each other and celebrate our common bond in Christ -that is most important.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Hope3]

my guess is that had the rich man been in purgatory then jesus would have added a third man who was likewise bad and truly in hell.

Good point.

 

[Hope3]

Really? Could you please provide some references (from what is accepted as Scripture by both Catholics and Protestants)! Remember, most Protestants do not accept books like Tobit, Judith, etc… as Scripture, so any references from these would be immediately dismissed.

Who gave the Protestants the authority to question/change/alter/degrade/remove any of the books of the OT canon of Scripture that was already in place (canonized) by about the late 300’s by Church Councils and these same canons (both OT and NT) reaffirmed again by the Council of Trent?

 

[Hope3]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. If you are reading that verse without knowing anything about what people believe about death and its aftermath, would you still say that that statement does not say that there is no mental activity?

Since Jesus’ spirit went to preach to the dead during the time that His body was in the grave awaiting resurrection, then they had to be conscious in order to hear Him.

1 Peter 4:6 “For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

 

[Hope3]

It seems to me the text gives the answer. I’ve always understood it to be hell. Where people get the idea it’s purgatory, I don’t know. There is also an unbridgeable chasm, which implies hell as well.

Seems plain to me, too.

 

[Hope3]

Really? Could you please provide some references (from what is accepted as Scripture by both Catholics and Protestants)! Remember, most Protestants do not accept books like Tobit, Judith, etc… as Scripture, so any references from these would be immediately dismissed.

The necessity and practice of praying for the dead came to us first through the Jews.

The Kaddish is still prayed today by the Jews for their dead in order for them to receive merit after death. (Catholics do not believe that merit can be gained for any person after death, but we do believe that we can help the poor souls in purgatory to be released from this prison/purgatory and enter into heaven sooner than if we do not pray for them at all.) Kaddish: chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282507/jewish/Soul-Talk.htm

From the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark the Evangelist, a disciple of St. Peter:

O Lord our God, give peace to the souls of our fathers and brethren who have fallen asleep in Jesus, remembering our forefathers of old, our fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, bishops, and the souls of all the holy and just men who have died in the Lord.

newadvent.org/fathers/0718.htm