the rich man.

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sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.
 
Spencer I believe this verse shouldn’t be taken literally. In the two Gospels in which this passage is found (Mt 19:21 and Lk 18:22) we see that Jesus gives this advice to a rich man who wanted to know how to “inherit eternal life” (in other words to get to heaven). Jesus knew of course that the one thing that lay as an obstacle to his being allowed to heaven is his attachment and love of money or material possession. So Jesus wanted to make him AWARE about his attachment because every movement of Change begins with Awareness. Christ wanted to come in strong and doesn’t want to mince words with this guy. Yes he uses a form of exaggeration but then if we look deeply into his words, he truly doesn’t exaggerate at all because bottom line is, if we cannot give up anything in exchange for the life offered by Christ then how can He admit us to heaven? He himself gave up his Life to save us and that means nothing is this world should be greater than our Love for God. Christ will make demands from each of us according to the capacity and situation of our lives.
 
spencer2 said:
sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.
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My personal, non-officical position is that Jesus knew that it was necessary for that man to sell all he had to get into heaven. Jesus sees into all hearts and knows what each of us is tied to in this world, and what we need to be detatched from.

It seems to me that the general principle here is not that everyone in the world has to sell everything and give it to the poor, but that each of us has to be ready to make that radical of a change in our lifestyles if it is necessary for us to get to Heaven, depending on what worldly things are keeping us away from God.

Just my :twocents:

–Jen
 
We will have to be purified of all selfish attachments, either here, or in purgatory. There can be no traces of self in heaven. I think a persons eyes are turned towards self rather than God when they seek riches. God is a Jealous God and wants our whole heart. It is possible to have riches, and not be attached to them, but there is still the problem of having to try to squeeze through the eye of a needle. If there is too much self we probably wont fit. We all have a responsibility to use what ever we don’t need to take care of the poor. If we don’t we are going to have a very difficult time when Matthew 25 comes around at the last judgement.

If a person has a family they are obligated to support them by providing food, clothing, education, health insurance, and shelter. I think it would be irresponsible to sell everything when a person has dependents.

The people in history who have taken up Christ on his offer such as the Apostles, Saint Francis of Assisi and Mother Teresa of Calcutta became saints through abandoning everything for the love of God.

I think a decision like that would have to carefully be discerned with a spiritual director. Mother Teresa had get permission from her religious superiors before she embarked on her journey. Francis on the other hand was impulsive, read the scripture, took it literally, and just did it. It’s not for the faint of heart, but I’m sure the rewards are way beyond anything that can be described. One would have to do it to understand what God does with such a soul.

I tried it when I was much younger but didn’t get very far. I tried pulling a Saint Francis. I sold everything, and left the house without shoes, or a coat. It was about 20 degrees out, so I made it about three blocks before I ran home and jumped in a hot shower. 🤷
 
Ferds Guiang:

However, the scene from Romans and the treatment of Aninias and his wife is revealing. What is strange in this case is that it is not in character or spirit of what scripture teaches, in that we should not place too much value on money, which is the category of “possessions”.

We see from Peter that he unconsciously placed an intrinsic value on money that would manifest when a situation arrives that he is unable to attain it, something he needed to reconcile with PRIOR to being tested by occasions to sin later such has this. Peter needed to exercise this propensity to attachments to things into a transformation to values of faith.

Ironically, this test of sacrifice was played out every day by him when the Apostles needed to request food from the flock. They accepted what they received in faith, no vendettas to those who had more to give. It is a wonder this lesson didn’t carry over to Aninias.

As we are all taught, by Peter himself ironically, is that we should place faith in God and pray for what is needed and accept the amount has a gift from God, even if it is zero. It is evident the Franciscan spirit would be alien to him, has seeing a Jesus in Aninias was not within one of his capabilities.

A transformed Peter could then pass onto Aninias this skill and gained a convert as a bonus and perhaps win over at least some tithe. It would seem that with power comes a lessor desire for tact and strategy, which is nothing new to us.

You figure. 🤷

Andy
 
Thanks ebcat. I have the deepest respect of this Pope whom I met once. Is there a written version of this? I don’t use media add ons because I had a bad incident with viruses in the past. One piggybacked one of these packages. Perhaps you can give me the gist of the lesson?

The Aninias case has always been a point of contention with me and I haven’t yet heard a convincing argument for it.

Andy
 
AndyF said:
The Aninias case has always been a point of contention with me and I haven’t yet heard a convincing argument for it.
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Hi Andy–

I don’t understand what it is about this case that is a problem for you. I’ve always thought that the passage was clear that it wasn’t the money that was the problem but lying to the Church. Peter made it clear (Acts 5:4) that there was no requirement for Ananias and Sapphira to sell the land in the first place (“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own?”), and that once it was sold, there was no requirement for them to bring the money to the Church (“And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal?”). Their great sin was trying to get the false appearance of piety in the Church, by telling everyone that they had sold their property and brought all of the proceeds of it to the Church, when in fact that was a lie. That is why (IMO) it wasn’t until Sapphira lied specifically to Peter and the other Apostles that she died. If it was just that they hadn’t brought all of the money, there was no reason she couldn’t have died when Ananias brought the money, even if she wasn’t there at the time. The problem was the lie.

–Jen
 
spencer2 said:
sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.
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Be careful in taking things out of context.
The rich young man came to jesus and asked what he must do to inherent eternal life. Jesus points him to living the commandments. “I’ve kept these since I was a child”, he responds and then asks, “What else do I lack?”(Mt 19:20), to which Jesus replied, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me".(Mt 19:21)

Note that Jesus had not condemned the young man for his possessions.
Jesus command to sell all is in response to the young man’s Holy desire to do more. Unfortunately the Gospel goes on to tell us that Holy desires are not always enough for the young man, “went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions”.

Jesus tries to show us in this and the following section about the rich entering the kingdom, and threading a camel through a needles eye, that there is always more to do, there is always need to strip ourselves of earthy attachments; and most important that, becoming, “perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”, (Mt 5:48) is an ongoing and difficult journey.

So to answer your posted question, no we do not have to live in poverty and work only for the support of the poor.
We should however endeavor to live simply and without undue attachment to worldy honors, or worldy goods.
Christ also tells us not to worry -
31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or’What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. (Mt 6)

In closing I would suggest sitting down with your bible every day and reading Mt Chapters 5 through 7. Do this every day for a week. Don’t try to draw out every meaning of every word, but let the entire sermon flow over and into you. This will help to give you a good model and balance for living the Christian life.

And finally I wish to add, perhaps teh most important point in all of this. Christ tells us that All of the Law and all of the Prophets are built upon the two great commandments of Love (Mt 22:36-40). So in all of our endevors to grow in Holiness and to understand Gods will for us, Look to Love. God’s Love for us and our reflecting of that Love to our neighbor.

Peace
James
 
Mark 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, **what must I do to inherit eternal life?” **10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 10:19 You know the commandments: Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 10:20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.” 10:21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

I have always seen this passage as a call made to the young man to become one of Jesus’ disciples/apostles. “Follow Me” – come along with Me, travel with Me.
(Many priests and religious today take a vow of poverty.)

The young man had asked what he must do to have eternal life and Jesus’ response was to keep the commandments. But the young man seems to experience an interior desire to do more. (Implied in his response that he had kept all the commandments for a long time, and yet felt the need to ask what he must do beyond keeping the law.)
 
spencer2 said:
sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.
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this was Christ’s call to one specific individual who asked for His counsel, the rich young man. Others in history have discerned this call as well, and some have acted on it, like Francis. The general teaching of Christ about possessions, wealth and poverty are throughout the Gospel, crystalized in the Beatitudes, which apply to all.
 
spencer2 said:
sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is why priests take a vow of poverty so they are holier than the rest of us. Most of us cannot do this so we are not as holy but we will still have salvation if we accept Jesus and obey the church.

I think this verse means that those that do have money or don’t work for the poor spend more time in purgatory but they still will go to heaven.
 
I believe the official teaching on the Church is that:

A) To be Saved (“inherit eternal life”), we must obey the precepts and commandments of the Church
B) The evangelical counsels ("sell all you, give to the poor, etc.) are NOT necessary for Salvation, but more to achieve a higher state of Christian perfection (“if thou will be perfect”)
 
If I have not mistaken, St. Francis of Assisi took it literally. Maybe also the sisters of saint Clare. (not so sure:shrug:)
 
kelvinf said:
If I have not mistaken, St. Francis of Assisi took it literally. Maybe also the sisters of saint Clare. (not so sure:shrug:)
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It is not a question of taking it literally or not, it is more that St. Francis and St. Clare decided to follow the evangelical counsels, but it is/was not strictly required for Salvation.
 
revert_jen said:
My personal, non-officical position is that Jesus knew that it was necessary for that man to sell all he had to get into heaven. Jesus sees into all hearts and knows what each of us is tied to in this world, and what we need to be detatched from.

It seems to me that the general principle here is not that everyone in the world has to sell everything and give it to the poor, but that each of us has to be ready to make that radical of a change in our lifestyles if it is necessary for us to get to Heaven, depending on what worldly things are keeping us away from God.

Just my :twocents:

–Jen
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What makes it so that this part of the Bible only applies to a specific person, or that we can say Jesus was exaggerating? Or that we interpret it as anything other than literal?
 
aperture said:
What makes it so that this part of the Bible only applies to a specific person, or that we can say Jesus was exaggerating? Or that we interpret it as anything other than literal?
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I didn’t interpret it as anything other than literal. As the Catechism says (quoting St. Thomas Aquinas), “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.” I’m not going to go against the Catechism and St Thomas!

Taking that passage literally means I believe the story happened just as it was written, and that Jesus said exactly what it says he said. I do believe that. The sense of scripture that relates to the Bible teaching us how to behave is the “moral sense.” I also believe the passage has something to teach us about how to behave, as I described in my earlier post. But it sounds like by “literal” you don’t mean literal but something like “litero-moral,” and, fair enough, I don’t read it that way.

Also, I didn’t say that Jesus was exaggerating. I think he meant exactly what he said to that man. If you look back at what JRKH said, I agree with all of that.

What I said was that I thought that it was an overgeneralization to say that this was a literal command for all Christians. Jesus didn’t say it in the sermon on the mount, when he as speaking to all of his followers, but to one specific man. I think the example is valid for us, but not a literal command to all, since Jesus didn’t say it to all.

You’re free to disagree, it is just my opinion.

–Jen
 
aperture said:
What makes it so that this part of the Bible only applies to a specific person, or that we can say Jesus was exaggerating? Or that we interpret it as anything other than literal?
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The Catholic Church is the only body that can authoritatively interpret Scripture. My understanding is that the Church interprets (and by interpret, I mean interpret how as Christians it should be applied) this verse (and even the Beatitudes) as obedience to the commandments/precepts being required for Salvation, but obedience to the evangelical counsels as not strictly necessary for Salvation.

If you can find Church teaching which contradicts this, go ahead, but otherwise, your opinion (and mine and all others) is inferior to the Magisterium of the Church.
 
regarding the rich man, I see this as a commandment for all who can accept it, Jesus said, “try your hardest to enter through the narrow gate” this is it…! I agree with the church, in teaching this is part of our salvation…

because when the disciples heard what Jesus said, they questioned him, and said, “then who can be saved?” And God answered, Amen.

2nd Clement puts it like this, " For Alms-giving lifteth off the burden of sin" what’s he talking about? He is saying, people are dying and you have money in the bank… therefore God says, “be blameless as I am” [my understanding of scripture]…

Think about what I said here, read in-between the lines… is having money really the burden of sin? certainly makes you think about how the world works… The early church fathers used to embrace “a spirit of Poverty”, Jesus said, '“How blessed are you who are poor” [Luke 12:20]… why because it has blessings in God’s eyes… May I add this is still the teaching of the church (to embrace a spirit of poverty)…

Good luck 😉
 
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