The right (and duty) to kneel

[alessandro]

My mother was recently chastised by her pastor, for curtseying before receiving Communion.

She didn’t even fully genuflect; she merely curtseyed in respect of the Body of Christ she was about to receive. When she inquired, after Mass, why he had said that to her, he reiterated that one shouldn’t curtsey or genuflect, but at most should bow at the waist, lest he interfere with the procession; and added that “if you don’t like it, you should find another church.”

Believe it, or not.

I wrote an article about this: Read it here. It features an open letter from Mrs. Vivian Dudro to the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, about restoring respect toward the Real Presence by allowing and encouraging genuflection in the Mass again.

 

[threej_lc]

It is a sad time that we live in that performing acts of reverence to the true presence is criticized by His ministers. Confusing in the rubrics and the role of the liturgy runs rampant. I, and many here, are praying for the Lord to remedy this. I am glad the Holy Spirit has called you to help fight this.

However, I must ask why did you name the specific pastor? Perhaps so we could pray for him more specifically? Then thank you. We are aware of the problems of the church. We are called to be a light in that which Christ founded for holiness and love. Please make sure you were not providing a specific name to create scandal for one of the the ministers the Lord specifically hand-picked to serve him.

We should thank God for all our priests, whether or not we think they’re doing a good job. This is a strong weekness of mine that the Lord has been chastising me for lately. I just hope to share what I have been learning.

Josh

 

[palmas85]

alessandro:

My mother was recently chastised by her pastor, for curtseying before receiving Communion.

She didn’t even fully genuflect; she merely curtseyed in respect of the Body of Christ she was about to receive. When she inquired, after Mass, why he had said that to her, he reiterated that one shouldn’t curtsey or genuflect, but at most should bow at the waist, lest he interfere with the procession; and added that “if you don’t like it, you should find another church.”

Believe it, or not.

I wrote an article about this: Read it here. It features an open letter from Mrs. Vivian Dudro to the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, about restoring respect toward the Real Presence by allowing and encouraging genuflection in the Mass again.

A good friend of mine and co worker is going through the RCIA process. I asked him about this and apparently that is what people are being taught these days. He was told that a bow was the only proper and accepted form of reverence permitted during reception of Holy Communion. Anything else was described as trying to be “holier than thou”. They were also told that receiving on the tongue is unsanitary due to the fact that the Priest could touch someones tongue with his fingers and then touch someones elses.

 

[alessandro]

threej_lc:

However, I must ask why did you name the specific pastor? Perhaps so we could pray for him more specifically? Then thank you. We are aware of the problems of the church. We are called to be a light in that which Christ founded for holiness and love. Please make sure you were not providing a specific name to create scandal for one of the the ministers the Lord specifically hand-picked to serve him.

My intent was not to cause scandal, but to keep him accountable for his actions. Nevertheless, I have removed his name from the weblog entry. I can’t seem to remove it from the above post, however.

 

[alessandro]

palmas85:

… a bow was the only proper and accepted form of reverence permitted during reception of Holy Communion. Anything else was described as trying to be “holier than thou”.

What is ‘holier than thou’ is the priests’ attitudes when they lose direction and get caught up in the novelty of Vatican II. They forget what is important, and then sneer at anyone who reminds them of Tradition.

There are so many things wrong with the Church today: They should focus their attention on fixing the problems rather than creating new ones.

All the saints must be rolling over in their graves to hear that a priest reprimands someone for curtseying or genuflecting. In some traditions, the concelebrants and even the congregation are fully prostrate (lying on the floor) before the Host – that’s how much they revere it.

It’s time that we clean up the Church!

 

[netmilsmom]

palmas85:

They were also told that receiving on the tongue is unsanitary due to the fact that the Priest could touch someones tongue with his fingers and then touch someones elses.

LOL!
But drinking the backwash of another from a cup is no problem, huh?

I take my Body and Blood by intinction, thank you! And I am really glad my hubby is in RCIA where we have it this way too.

 

[threej_lc]

alessandro:

My intent was not to cause scandal, but to keep him accountable for his actions. Nevertheless, I have removed his name from the weblog entry. I can’t seem to remove it from the above post, however.

Thanks! Lord bless you!
Josh

 

[AltarMan]

This issue is cut and dried:

**The following adaptation of GIRM 160 was approved by the Holy See for the United States. **

"GIRM 160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, **the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence** and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

Recognized by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, 17 April 2002, and, promulgated as particular law of the United States by Decree of the President of the USCCB, Bishop Wilton Gregory, 25 April 2002."

 

[JNB]

Gee not this debate again. The issue actually is far from cut and dried, from how “norm” is defined, meaning norm is how somthing is normally done, but doesnt have the weight of canon law, to the 3 letters from the CDW in the Vatican 3 years ago on the issue stateing that one who kneels for communion should not be imposed upon or being called disobidient. Yes it is confusing, yes teh Vatican should have been a bit more clear before this new “norm” was issued, but the end result today is it is not disobdient to kneel or genuflect for communion.

This issue is cut and dried:

**The following adaptation of GIRM 160 was approved by the Holy See for the United States. **

"GIRM 160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

Recognized by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, 17 April 2002, and, promulgated as particular law of the United States by Decree of the President of the USCCB, Bishop Wilton Gregory, 25 April 2002."

 

[palmas85]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

LOL!
But drinking the backwash of another from a cup is no problem, huh?

I take my Body and Blood by intinction, thank you! And I am really glad my hubby is in RCIA where we have it this way too.

I still maintain that receiving under both species is best done by intinction and I really cannot understand for the life of me why the Latin Rite does not do it.

Oh I forgot, it gives something for all the extraordinary ministers to do. Sorry about that.

 

[m134e5]

Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

and what are the reasons for the norm? if it is so important that we not kneel, then why have I yet to hear a good reasons for everyone not to kneel? It may trip someone? They should slow down! People with knee replacements can’t kneel? Then they shouldn’t- it’s not required!

 

[thistle]

Here in the Philippines we are periodically politely reminded by the priest that we should bow respectfully before receiving Communion. He has never said anything about kneeling or curtseying.
I would have no objections to kneeling although I don’t see why it should be a duty. It is no more or less respectful than a bow.

 

[Dropper]

thistle:

Here in the Philippines we are periodically politely reminded by the priest that we should bow respectfully before receiving Communion. He has never said anything about kneeling or curtseying.
I would have no objections to kneeling although I don’t see why it should be a duty. It is no more or less respectful than a bow.

I think that the change from kneeling to standing (at least in the US) has definately had an impact on the belief in the Real Presence.

I mean if that’s Our Lord (and it is), shouldn’t we kneel before Him? I wonder how many people on Judgement Day will only bow before Him.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

alessandro:

My mother was recently chastised by her pastor, for curtseying before receiving Communion.

She didn’t even fully genuflect; she merely curtseyed in respect of the Body of Christ she was about to receive. When she inquired, after Mass, why he had said that to her, he reiterated that one shouldn’t curtsey or genuflect, but at most should bow at the waist, lest he interfere with the procession; and added that “if you don’t like it, you should find another church.”

Believe it, or not.

I wrote an article about this: Read it here. It features an open letter from Mrs. Vivian Dudro to the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, about restoring respect toward the Real Presence by allowing and encouraging genuflection in the Mass again.

This issue is also about following legitimate instructions from the Church (Bishop). The Bishops have full authority to determine the gesture required before receiving Holy Communion and they have determined that a head-bow along with Amen is the norm. They have also specifically instructed the Faithful in the US not to genuflect, curtsey or attempt to kneel. Why do people feel that they can do as they please and ignore the legitimate instructions of the Bishops? Then complain when other people won’t follow other instructions of the Bishops. We ALL either follow the instructions of the Bishops where the Bishops have the authority to issue instructions or we are adding to the overall problem of ignoring the authority of the Church!

I totally agree with the pastor except the part about finding another church.

By the way the word “Norm” does not refer to how things are normally done. It has a specific meaning in Canon Law.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

LOL!
But drinking the backwash of another from a cup is no problem, huh?

I take my Body and Blood by intinction, thank you! And I am really glad my hubby is in RCIA where we have it this way too.

I agree that intinction is a good way to distribute Holy Communion. However it is only practicable in a small church since only the priest may intinct the Host and it must be received in the mouth. I have been in small parishes where Holy Communion is only offered by intinction. This violates the rules the other way. Where in the US reception in the hand is supposed to always be an option. In this case the priest should wait to see which way the communicant wishes to receive. In larger parishes it’s not possible to offer intinction since usually only one priest is distributing Holy Communion anyone wishing to receive by intinction would have to switch lines.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dropper:

I think that the change from kneeling to standing (at least in the US) has definately had an impact on the belief in the Real Presence.

I mean if that’s Our Lord (and it is), shouldn’t we kneel before Him? I wonder how many people on Judgement Day will only bow before Him.

Well, if that’s Our Lord (and “It” is) why don’t we show “true and proper” reverence and prostrate ourselves on our faces? I think people should simply follow the norms set forth by the legitimate authority over us, ie, the bishops and priests.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Dropper:

I think that the change from kneeling to standing (at least in the US) has definately had an impact on the belief in the Real Presence.

I mean if that’s Our Lord (and it is), shouldn’t we kneel before Him? I wonder how many people on Judgement Day will only bow before Him.

Personally, I would like to see at option that we can rec’v via kneeling at a communion rail. However, until that option is approved, we have an obligation to respect the authority of the Church delegated to US Bishops and recieve as instructed. Personal acts of piety in violation of instuction from the Bishops is neither orthodox or reverrent. I don’t see the difference between kneeling in opposition to specific instruction or wearing a rainbow sash when receiving communion. Both are acts of defiance.

 

[MariaG]

Orionthehunter:

Personally, I would like to see at option that we can rec’v via kneeling at a communion rail. However, until that option is approved, we have an obligation to respect the authority of the Church delegated to US Bishops and recieve as instructed. Personal acts of piety in violation of instuction from the Bishops is neither orthodox or reverrent. I don’t see the difference between kneeling in opposition to specific instruction or wearing a rainbow sash when receiving communion. Both are acts of defiance.

I agree. This issue can change. Those who feel strongly about kneeling should pray for a change of instructions every time they receive, after a profound head bow, or if they feel the need, a bow from the waist. While a person is not to be denied communion for kneeling, they are supposed to be instructed. Hopefully, the instruction is in a Christian manner unlike the OP experience. To then defy the instruction just because you don’t like them or think kneeling is better is wrong. How does that make you different than Luther who felt he knew better than the Pope?

Like them or not, agree with them or not, the Bishops of the US have authority over the faithful in the US. Defiance of authority of the Church, under the guise of piety is hypocritical.

 

[palmas85]

MariaG:

I agree. This issue can change. Those who feel strongly about kneeling should pray for a change of instructions every time they receive, after a profound head bow, or if they feel the need, a bow from the waist. While a person is not to be denied communion for kneeling, they are supposed to be instructed. Hopefully, the instruction is in a Christian manner unlike the OP experience. To then defy the instruction just because you don’t like them or think kneeling is better is wrong. How does that make you different than Luther who felt he knew better than the Pope?

Like them or not, agree with them or not, the Bishops of the US have authority over the faithful in the US. Defiance of authority of the Church, under the guise of piety is hypocritical.

The whole situation is just too ambiguous. You can kneel, and cannot be denied if you kneel, but you should be instructed not to kneel… It looks to me like the Church is trying to have it both ways and not offend anybody. That seems to be very indicative of the Church in these troubled times. Don’t set any more hard and fast rules than necessary. And all that attitude really does is confuse people and breed discontent…

I prefer to receive kneeling, but if the Church came out and said in a definite voice, receive standing only, I would do it out of obedience and accept it as a matter of discipline.

Why be wishy washy about it?

 

[JNB]

Orionthehunter:

Personally, I would like to see at option that we can rec’v via kneeling at a communion rail. However, until that option is approved, we have an obligation to respect the authority of the Church delegated to US Bishops and recieve as instructed. Personal acts of piety in violation of instuction from the Bishops is neither orthodox or reverrent. I don’t see the difference between kneeling in opposition to specific instruction or wearing a rainbow sash when receiving communion. Both are acts of defiance.

Man, who is the pharisee here. Anyways, the Vaticans CDF stated in 3 letters to the US bishops that people who kneel for communion are not to be considered or disobideint, end of discussion. To compare those who kneel for communion to those who wear rainbow sashes shows me you have your priorities way out of wack. Also to Br. Rich SFO, read Aderomus bulliten, Norm means just that, the way somthing is NORMALLY done, not an equivlent to a Canon law that has to be 100% followed, hence the 3 letters from the CDF to the US bishops on the subject.