"The Right Thing to Do about a Bad Dad"

[sarah_j]

Mom is making excuses for Rick so that she can rationalize
letting Nana babysit Sweetpea.
It may be convenient for her to let Nana babysit her daughter, but
look at the situation in which she is leaving the child !
Mom’s number one concern should be protecting her 5 yr. old,
even if it means giving up a free babysitter!
Nana sounds almost as unstable as her son.

The Dad is a destructive force in Sweetpea’s life and the child knows it.
They ALL know it, but don’t want to admit it, for various reasons.
It is scarring the child to know that her father is messed up and yet all
the adults in her life are denying this to her. In effect, they are “gaslighting”
the child.
Even if he isn’t molesting her, she is being damaged by the whole situation.
Happy children don’t hide in closets and have to be dragged screaming to the
car to go visit their fathers.

Judging from all you’ve said, I don’t see anyone in that situation who is going
to step up and protect the child. Nana, the Mom, and the Dad all seem part of
the problem. They are all manipulators.

It’s up to you to protect that child. It’s best to stop thinking that you
can talk them into doing the right thing for Sweetpea.
That isn’t going to happen. IMO.

I would talk to a child advocate about your concerns for Sweetpea.
You may not have any legal standing, but the courts do. There is probably
a social worker who is attached to the family court. Find out who that is
and talk to her/him.
The family isn’t going to like it if you talk to child protection, so brace yourself,
but I don’t see that you have any choice. Be strong!

 

[Viki63]

Even if he isn’t molesting her, she is being damaged by the whole situation.
Happy children don’t hide in closets and have to be dragged screaming to the
car to go visit their fathers.
I would talk to a child advocate about your concerns for Sweetpea.
You may not have any legal standing, but the courts do. There is probably
a social worker who is attached to the family court. Find out who that is
and talk to her/him.
The family isn’t going to like it if you talk to child protection, so brace yourself,
but I don’t see that you have any choice. Be strong!

Yes, this is absolutely correct.
The moral issue in this case is that the adults should protect the child. Some of them are not doing this, so child protective services need to be involved.

Explaining things to the child is not the most important thing, really, what can she do to protect herself if left alone with a man who wants to molest her? Warning her not to be alone with him is pointless. She should be supervised by people who care about her.

Tell protective services, They can have a doctor and a social worker determine if she has been molested or not. Family members should not try to do this, they don’t have the expertise.

.

 

[Legend]

Eliza, the situation is indeed serious! Nana is definitely unstable and dangerous. You said that she and her husband have no ‘real’ visitation rights, nor does her son…is Mom allowing these Wednesday dinners with Dad to pay for the babysitting? In that case, it’s not ‘free’ and probably never was.

I can’t begin to express the danger I feel. Mom even said she felt that she and Rick bonded over Nana’s unusual behavior. Has Nana ever told anyone she’d like them to reconcile? Raise Sweetpea together?

The timing of these dinners is troubling in itself. Could she/they be contemplating a kidnapping? Insisting on picking up Sweetpea before her Mom gets off work…hmmm.

You, Grandma, and your husband should get together and talk of the possibilities. Having the child have dinner with a father AND a grandmother she is clearly uncomfortable with is a big price for babysitting. I think you said that Grandma hired a lawyer. Have her call him before the next ‘family dinner’. And from now on, document things that happen. Who Sweetpea is supposed to be with, is actually with, how she and they behave…anything you can come close to proving. Nana isn’t going to give up her fantasy of a perfect family easily, so don’t give up any reality. A child’s safety is at stake.

 

[Legend]

Sorry…I tried to edit, but it timed out.
It seems that these visits are court-ordered. So Mom is limited in what she can do. She should, however, have the time changed, so she can supervise the entire visit.

My other comments stand. There’s nothing like manipulating the wishes of the court. And Nana seems to be an expert.

 

[Eliza10]

1 of 2

Thank you for these responses. It really is helping me communicate. I found this great article on teaching your child about “Tricky People”, and also under “Prevention Tips” is “Red Flags”.

sarah j - Sweetpea’s time with “Rick” is limited to this 2 hour weekly time slot for now. I know Grandma has a lawyer on it and it helps that Rick is on his way to court for a DUI. Yes, Mom is not responding as quick as I’d like but I think she needs time to work out her own denial issues. So I am trying to speak the truth and pray, and I see progress. Also Grandma will be good to talk to soon, though her close family members are visiting from oversees, and are in the middle of a 2-week visit, so it has to wait.

Once again Sweetpea was picked up from here for that weekly visitation. This time I took Mom’s advice (also because of what happened last week) and did not tell Sweetpea a thing about what to expect later in the day (though this seems wrong to me, in this exceptional circumstance, perhaps it is best). Sweetpea did not ask. Then in my great hope to avoid last week’s scene, I sort of lied when I knew Nana and Poppa were on the way, saying, “Either your Nana or Mom is on their way to get you - one of them.” I NEVER mentioned “Rick”'s name, as Mom advised (she said it was the mention of Rick that made her act terrified, and clearly, that’s true). I texted Nana telling her I took Mom’s advice and never said Ricks name and that this should make her go with you easily. Thinking, this way its on my phone in case its helpful for court evidence.

Mom brought her back right after, and told me about her hole evening. I cannot write it all, but I will say, Mom took a stronger stance this time. Sweetpea was outside alone with Rick on the swings, and Mom told Nana this was NOT acceptable, that that is NOT supervised. Nana aggressively asserted herself in this and other things tonight but Mom stood her ground. Nana really disrespected her and I am going to address this with Nana myself. Nana had said to her “I have more experience! I raised 3 children!” and thankfully Mom said, “I am the Mom!” so hooray, good for her! I am going to say to Nana, “You and I had our chance, Its HER turn now. Our turn is over! SHE is the Mom and its OUR JOB to SUPPORT her. If you don’t, you are not supporting Sweetpea. And if you don’t’ support Sweetpea, you are not an important person in her life. If you want to be important to Sweetpea, you need to SUPPORT HER MOM! And back her up! THAT’s your job!” That is what i am thinking.

And then we need the courts to rule NO visitation without Mom there. Nana cannot be trusted. I know Mom will make it clear to Nana that if there is EVER any violation of it, in the slightest, she LOSE her privilege to see Sweetpea. Because Mom is afraid of the law herself, and has been told she could lose custody of her own child if she put her child in a position she knew was dangerous to her.

I really feel that my continually pointing out to Mom that* “YOU are the Mom, YOU are the important person here, its YOUR choice, YOU are in charge”* have helped. At least, I finally see her standing up to her more. Which made Nana mad, storming off, and leaving her to talk to more sympathetic Poppa, who feels QUITE torn, I am sure (But I am glad he is uncomfortable! He* needs* to stand up to Nana when little Sweetpea’s needs are not met. So if he is uncomfortable not doing that, GOOD.)

Mom had gotten heavily involved in relying on Nana for babysitting when her Dad (my new husband) who had been the always-available babysitter and also was where Sweetpea LIVED before Mom moved) abandoned the home and came to be with me in my state. We were a few months before marriage, and my Mom-care was getting overwhelming, making my visits to him harder or not possible, and his to me were expensive. So he came after Thanksgiving. (He had his own room!) and then we married Easter (and he moved in my room ) and then he helped me pack up house, shift stuff, not just mine, but my sons, and my parents - my Dad had passed 5 years before but no one had gone through his stuff) in whose house I had been living – very, very labor intensive, and I was working. So my need for relief was huge. So he did not go home for many months (it was this month last year we both returned here). When my husband left, Sweetpea’s Mom had just gotten her first apartment. Working to pay rent and utilities. She NEEDED babysitting. So Sweetpea spent LOTS of time there and Nana got to feeling that she is the important person - the “Mom”. But she is NOT! (Sweetpea is who she is because of Mom!).

So I reminded Mom that things change, and that she is not in that pickle anymore, and is not required to live as if she is, and she does not owe Nana anything, because your first priority is what YOU want for Sweetpea, and what works to make YOUR parenting better. And Nana’s job is to SERVE her, and to respect and support the mother/daughter relationship. (And if she is NOT doing that her role of importance in Sweetpea’s life needs to be a LOT less).

So I hope I am empowering Mom that what she thinks is best is her right and her place (and that Nan is out of place). I really got the idea tonight that that is so. I am encouraged.

[continued in next post]

 

[Eliza10]

2 of 2

Legend, yes, you’ve got it, the visits are court-ordered. Mom explained how she is really bound not to change a bit of the court-ordered 2 hours when I asked her tonight (I made some suggestions for how). So I cannot press it. I can keep praying, and meanwhile, that Mom is arriving her 15-30 minutes late each week [the court order only requires that Nana and Poppa supervise the visit) and the fact that Rick is always alone with Sweetpea in the yard when Mom arrives definitely gives Mom something to tell in court when Nana pushes to be the “visitation supervisor” for her son. Also now Mom is confrontign Nana that Nana is NOT Supervising properly as the court ordered, so, I think this will help. Hopefully, Nana will realize the possible consequences of getting caught “not* really supervising” on these Supervised visits, and fear will make her act right.

Mom *should *be out of work to arrive with them at the visits, but she manages a small store, and a key distributor comes that day and is often late, making her late. Her lawyer thinks she should take GREAT care right now following that last court order for this particular day and hour’s 2-hour supervised visitation EXACTLY. So she is taking her lawyer’s advice. She needs prayer about this. I am praying. Especially that she can be done earlier on that day. It seems to have to be the situation til the next court date.

Yes, I feel the danger, too, Legend, but while Mom experiences these feelings (re: her “bonding” comment), she does re-think them later. Yes, even my husband encouraged her a couple years back to reunite with Rick a couple of years back when he was having a clean month or two and showed “promise” (ALL his promises are empty!)! But she knows, he is far, far from straight. She KNOWS. She won’t ever trust him again. She knows her 10 years clean is FAR from his alleged 2 months (more like 2 days!). I may try to explain to her more about the manipulative nature of abusers, backing it up with good reading. Later. I think the “Tricky People” reading is the* most important* reading right now.

Yes, Legend, I am going to document what Mom told me about tonight’s visit, so that it will be in an email form she can share with her lawyer who can decide to use it or not.

Viki63, protective services… its definitely not at the point where its so bad that its okay to send a 5 year old to strangers (court-ordered fosters) for unspecified stretches of time. Right now the only thing that can go wrong is on that swing set, in that 15 minutes, and I can only hope I can convince Poppa to watch him for that 15 minutes. Also pray. I think that just before a court thing, if he is the molester think he is, he would be too cautious to take liberties when he could be found out.

I hope that when you three, or anyone else, reads this, and finds themselves thinking of it later, that you will see it as a sign you should pray, and at least say a quick: “Jesus, Joseph, Mary, please protect her.” Thank you. And thank you for caring enough to think on this. May you be blessed.

 

[Legend]

Eliza, is it possible that you, and Mom, are just beginning to recover from a Guilt-induced fog concerning Sweetpea? You, for the fact that your courtship and early married life took her major babysitter (your husband) away for long stretches of time, Mom for the fact that she chose to work, cutting down on her time with her daughter, and also for her past life in general? If so, I’m sure that Nana is using the fact to her, and her sons fullest advantage.

It’s important that you both deal with any lingering guilt feelings. How did Nana even get to the point where she could walk right into your house, chase Sweetpea upstairs, curse in her (and your) hearing, and manhandle her on your stairs? It’s hard to fathom anyone, especially a loving grandmother, would do this, without explanation or apology.

Are you feeling guilty about all the work Nana has done? Has she reminded you of it? It’s time to put the past in the past. A helpless child needs you. And her Mom, of course. Don’t let the past control either of you. You are needed…desperately…NOW! Make sure you get yourselves together before the upcoming court case

Sorry for the dramatics, but I picked up on this when you first described Nana as having a slight problem, then agreed that she was dangerous, then more fully described her behavior. You were getting to the point of putting the child first. You’re ready to deal with reality. Keep up the good work.

 

[Eliza10]

Eliza, is it possible that you, and Mom, are just beginning to recover from a Guilt-induced fog concerning Sweetpea? You, for the fact that your courtship and early married life took her major babysitter (your husband) away for long stretches of time, Mom for the fact that she chose to work, cutting down on her time with her daughter, and also for her past life in general? If so, I’m sure that Nana is using the fact to her, and her sons fullest advantage…

Wow, well, its hard to know just how much of the story to say! You can see, I told a LOT in this thread, yet, big parts got left out. How to not make these explanations go on forever? Its tricky! I will try to answer briefly!

Its hard to make brief. She chose to leave an get her own apartment long before she really needed to, but had found the perfect place she did not want to pass up, and truly, she knew it was time. She was motivated on her own for her own reasons. Not long after that (a couple of months) was when my husband decided to leave and come help me. He had already gone beyond the call of duty for many years and paid a big price for that too. She had other family that could help her, particularly her mother. She chose to use Nana and Poppa’s help a LOT. We even had family counselling on this (especially related to 12-step, co-dependence stuff which his daughter was very involved in), as well as wise advice from a pious priest. I feel confident we did the right thing in a complex situation. I don’t feel guilt about it because my husband and I put serious work into considering everything, getting counsel, with the goal of doing the wise and godly thing - the goal was not on our desires - we trusted God for that. So, no lingering feelings at all because we did the work beforehand. And we just continue trying to do the right thing one day at a time.

There is always a bit of fog in any situation you are in the middle of. As you can see, I realized the fog I have been in, allowing Nana to manhandle Sweetpea at pick up time in front of me. Don’t you ever witness wrong things, keep quiet, and later realize you should have said this or done that? It takes practice and thinking “next time I will…”. r, 'I . it. One just presses on to doing the right thing being open to what God is showing is true and right. Yes, I allowed Nana in the past to walk right in my house and felt somewhat uncomfortable but did not stop it. I will make a boundary now but in such a way that its all aobut me and not her, so it will be difficult for her to find a way to take offense.

It really is good news that Sweetpea’s Mom is now standing up strongly to Nana. Also I should point out that Sweetpea’s Mom really wants to work. She thrives at it. She now works for someone who appreciates her, and she needs that. I was a stay-home, homeschooling Mom (til my husband left) and I think that’s best. Sweetpea has a Mom that loves her and grandparents that love her and gets to be homeschooled by Grandma (and I assist) so its a pretty good life. Nana and Poppa are also good grandparents who love her - except its not safe until the court orders Rick can’t walk into that house or property.

Right now with Grandma’s family here discussions are on hold … and overnights as well, and Nana and Poppa with court ahead are afraid of Rick popping in on them so are taking her for a day at the park, a church picnic - those things.

 

[Legend]

I should have made it clear that I was " thinking out loud". I have no real opinions about mothers going to work, nor situations like you and your husband. I imagine there are ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ aspects about everyone, in every situation. In short, you should not feel obligated to answer each and every question I ask.

I have, however known a few ‘Nana’ types. Good for you…setting boundaries in your house. And I’m glad that you got professional and spiritual counseling, when making your previous decisions.

That you, personally, would get involved with a custody case that you are not, in the legal sense, involved in, says a lot about you. Your love and concern for Sweetpea makes her present condition, and will no doubt make her future much better and safer.

 

[Eliza10]

I should have made it clear that I was " thinking out loud". I have no real opinions about mothers going to work, nor situations like you and your husband. I imagine there are ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ aspects about everyone, in every situation. In short, you should not feel obligated to answer each and every question I ask.

I have, however known a few ‘Nana’ types. Good for you…setting boundaries in your house. And I’m glad that you got professional and spiritual counseling, when making your previous decisions.

That you, personally, would get involved with a custody case that you are not, in the legal sense, involved in, says a lot about you. Your love and concern for Sweetpea makes her present condition, and will no doubt make her future much better and safer.

Thanks, Legend. The “thinking-out loud” thing; I do that too sometimes. Mom’s going to work - I am all for staying home if you can. But I can see how for this Mom and certainly others can really benefit from working. It is giving her some self-esteem and a sense of capability, that she can take care of herself and her daughter. As long as she has us, her family, to help be there for childcare, its a really good thing for Sweetpea.

Nana and Poppa were here today to pick her up from her overnight here for a day at the beach, and will return her at 10pm, when her Mom will pick her up. I have a lot of things I would like to say to them both, however, I did not want to have anything but peace in front of Sweetpea, who was present with us all the whole time while Sweetpea finished her breakfast. I have noticed that Sweetpea said plenty of positive things about Nana and Poppa, and the things they do together. The ONLY time she refuses to go is anticipation of seeing their son. So, though Nana is a problem because of being in “de Nile” concerning her son, I do think that the son-problem can be taken care of by the court. When the court rules “no visitation without Mom present” and keeps it VERY limited, then I think they will be so afraid of losing ANY visitation that they will follow it. And Sweetpea is old enough to talk, and if she gets the “Tricky People” talk concerning not keeping secrets of adults from Mom, that will give some safety. (I keep praying, and it sure helps he just got a DUI).

Nana and Poppa live the furthest point away from Mom’s home - 30 min. south. We are on the way there, only 15 min. from her home, and also just a couple miles from Mom’s work. A complication for Nana and Poppa is that that they live rent-free in Nana’s Mom’s (great-grandma’s" house, who lives in their town in her other house, with apparently two other deadbeat relatives, and Great-grandma is a defender of Rick, and will not allow Nana and Poppa to evict Rick, and since its her house, they are not lawfully able to evict Rick (they wanted to). Poppa said once recently, concerning the courts and Rick, that if they lost visitation with Sweetpea because of Rick, they would MOVE TO OUR TOWN and live here, in order to be able to see Sweetpea. (They would not move further north to Mom’s town because his work is south of where they are now). They CAN well-afford to rent (according to Mom, as, they had to disclose their income when she disclosed theirs for the court), so, they could actually do this. It would put them away from Rick (the only REAL problem here - Nana is annoying at times, but not dangerous*), and it would be easier for Mom as far as traveling.

So, we’ll see. Thanks for the kind words about Sweetpea and me. She is so lovable; its easy to care. I feel so blessed to be in this “grandmother” role to her. And I am hoping my son finds a good Catholic girl at college that he is truly compatible with and falls in love with and marries and I will not long after be able to continue that role I have had practice in!

---

*She is not dangerous, but being an emotionally manipulative person, is not ALL-positive for Sweetpea. However, we don’t all have all-positive persons for relations. And Nana loves Sweetpea, even if in a faulty way, and good can be learned of having a less-than-stable relation - one can learn that imperfect people populate the world, and probably some ways to deal with them. Sweetpea has other examples of stable people in her life, and Poppa is stable, and is a stabilizing influence on Nana, so I do not see their active-grandparent involvement as dangerous for Sweetpea.

 

[Legend]

some new thoughts-finally!

Why is Sweetpea saying things about missing her dad, and wanting to be alone with him? This is obviously not true, as you said; when she knows she is going to see Rick, she begs not to have to…even asking to be allowed not to visit with him ‘just this once’. It sounds as if she has learned how to ‘bargain’, which is a little rare for a five-year-old.

And, in saying she wants to see him, only saying so when she knows she won’t be…is she being bribed/manipulated/even threatened by Rick or Nana? Someone ( ideally, her Mom) should start talking about the difference between truth and lies, never telling lies to Mom, and maybe being told a non-threatening story about how its always better to be truthful.

The page on’Tricky People’…I read some of it and find it usually makes sense. To ‘never,ever’ speak to a stranger is unrealistic-how’s she going to get help if she’s hurt, lost, or both? Yes, the safety of a person should be measured by unusual, tricky if you will, attitudes and requests-not simply on how well the child knows them!

Well, that was talking out loud. I do want to add, in all seriousness, that although Nana’s behavior has improved, she should still be regarded with caution…her love for her son has made her dangerous at times, and she did allow the court order-all time with Rick is to be supervised-to be violated at least two weeks in a row! But, as long as Mom is never too late…but then, that will be addressed at the next court appearence, when Rick will have to explain his latest DUI.

As to the last part of your most recent post…hoping your son will, when he is ready, meet, fall in love with, and marry a good Catholic girl, and start a family. You’ve already gone above and beyond with your step granddaughter. Hoping their troubles will be small-you’ve already tackled quite a few large ones!

 

[Eliza10]

some new thoughts-finally!

Why is Sweetpea saying things about missing her dad, and wanting to be alone with him? This is obviously not true, as you said; when she knows she is going to see Rick, she begs not to have to…even asking to be allowed not to visit with him ‘just this once’. It sounds as if she has learned how to ‘bargain’, which is a little rare for a five-year-old.

No, no, she is not bargaining for anything or trying to manipulate. I think she says this because she has been manipulated and coached by Nana, who wants to push her to “love daddy”, and I think the other thing is Rick manipulates her, telling her how to feel, and she is repeating these things she has been coached to say - because they never seem to have a purpose. They are just said, out of the blue. Perhaps she repeats them because they are strange thoughts she has been told she is to think. The real tell is the fight she puts up, the emotional reaction that cannot be hid, when she is told she is on her way to see Rick. Again, this week, Nana and Poppa pick her up from here, and I did not tell her that this was the night she sees Rick, and she did not put up a terrible fight.

Nana and Poppa have real first names of course, and also the grandparent-names which are not “Nana and Poppa”, the names I made up for this post… but I have been referring to them as that in these posts and I slipped and called them “Nana and Poppa” to Sweetpea’s Mom!

And, in saying she wants to see him, only saying so when she knows she won’t be…is she being bribed/manipulated/even threatened by Rick or Nana?

Yes.

Someone ( ideally, her Mom) should start talking about the difference between truth and lies, never telling lies to Mom, and maybe being told a non-threatening story about how its always better to be truthful.

I don’t think she is trying to lie. I think that Rick works at making it seem nice and special when they talk together. He is a manipulator. Like most abusers are. Its like she gets a double message, “Isn’t’ it special to be together? I am your daddy!” and the “ick” feeling she has.

The page on’Tricky People’…I read some of it and find it usually makes sense. To ‘never,ever’ speak to a stranger is unrealistic-how’s she going to get help if she’s hurt, lost, or both? Yes, the safety of a person should be measured by unusual, tricky if you will, attitudes and requests-not simply on how well the child knows them!

Yes, I really like the Tricky People teaching, and I am going to share it with Gramdma and Mom now that soon the guest are leaving.

Well, that was talking out loud. I do want to add, in all seriousness, that although Nana’s behavior has improved, she should still be regarded with caution…her love for her son has made her dangerous at times, and she did allow the court order-all time with Rick is to be supervised-to be violated at least two weeks in a row! But, as long as Mom is never too late…but then, that will be addressed at the next court appearance, when Rick will have to explain his latest DUI.

That’s what I wanted to write about! “Mom” called to tell me that she heard from the lawyer they hired. He attended the hearing (details were not given in the report he learned of it in, so to be sure it was a DUI he had to go). Sure enough, it was a DUI! In July! Just two months after the last, which was a supposed “one time thing”. Well, now its not one time, its two times! Furthermore, he went to some sort of counseling for this, and what came out in the counseling was that he was using drugs again! (I don’t know the details of that, just that). So now TWO important things. Its answer to my prayer that the truth comes out. Just in time! Truly, just in time. I mean, this could have happened after a court ruling, and then they would have had to go to the time and expense of court again. So I thank the Lord. I will keep you updated. First court appearance not til late in the month. I hope that they can change the time so that Mom does not have to ever be late. I promised Mom on the phone that I woudl take Sweetpea to her work on this day, so that she could take her to Nana and Poppa’s herself, and always be there when Rick is. Also Mom is afraid to bring her late 15 min,. or so, when work requires she be late. She should not be bound and threatened by an exact hour; it should be a “two-hour supervised visit after work on Wed.s”, or something like that. I hope they can get that in order in this ruling. Also unsolved is the problem of Rick coming in when Sweetpea is there. He is not a rule follower… he needs a legal threat against trespassing. Not sure how that will work but we will all discuss later…

As to the last part of your most recent post…hoping your son will, when he is ready, meet, fall in love with, and marry a good Catholic girl, and start a family. You’ve already gone above and beyond with your step granddaughter. Hoping their troubles will be small-you’ve already tackled quite a few large ones!

Thanks! That is sweet. My son starts college next week! I am so proud of him. Its a milestone.