The Right Thing to do

[David_Neel]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced. She was married by a JP. My son is also divorced. He was previously wed by a Mormon Bishop. The two want to get married in the Catholic Church but, since they are living together, want to speed up the process by marrying in a Protestant Church. They read some advice on the internet from a JCL that getting married in a Protestant Church (Church of God) is recognized by the Catholic Church and the lady can take RCI, marriage prep with my son ( my son is a confirmed Catholic) and they can be married in the Church at a later date. Is this method recognized as valid by the Church?

 

[Francine_Peters]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced.

No can do.

Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced. She was married by a JP. My son is also divorced. He was previously wed by a Mormon Bishop. The two want to get married in the Catholic Church but, since they are living together, want to speed up the process by marrying in a Protestant Church. They read some advice on the internet from a JCL that getting married in a Protestant Church (Church of God) is recognized by the Catholic Church and the lady can take RCI, marriage prep with my son ( my son is a confirmed Catholic) and they can be married in the Church at a later date. Is this method recognized as valid by the Church?

One option is to have a civil ceremony and follow up with getting marriage recognized by the church. Not the best option but not as convoluted as marrying in this or that nonCatholic church then getting things changed over.

 

[marci]

I’m not sure about this so maybe ask an apologist, but I don’t think that one must seek an annulment it one was married in a civil ceramony. As far as your son, if it was a protestant wedding, I would say he might need an annulment, but I’m no so sure about a mormon ceramony.

Maybe they might consider waiting until they work through these issues, so that they could get married in the church.

 

[rayne89]

I’m not sure about this so maybe ask an apologist, but I don’t think that one must seek an annulment it one was married in a civil ceramony. As far as your son, if it was a protestant wedding, I would say he might need an annulment, but I’m no so sure about a mormon ceramony.

Maybe they might consider waiting until they work through these issues, so that they could get married in the church.

You always need an annulment if you have been married before. It maybe a simple annulment which means the process is much shorter but if there has been a marriage contract of any kind the church always needs to look at the marriage to either declare it null or a valid marriage.

 

[rayne89]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced. She was married by a JP. My son is also divorced. He was previously wed by a Mormon Bishop. The two want to get married in the Catholic Church but, since they are living together, want to speed up the process by marrying in a Protestant Church. They read some advice on the internet from a JCL that getting married in a Protestant Church (Church of God) is recognized by the Catholic Church and the lady can take RCI, marriage prep with my son ( my son is a confirmed Catholic) and they can be married in the Church at a later date. Is this method recognized as valid by the Church?

You son will need to go through the annulment process and his fiance will also before the marriage can be recognized as valid. Getting married in a protestant church is recognized as valid -if neither party is Catholic or have previous marriages. Once validly married protestants enter the church than the marriage will become sacramental.

A Catholic married in any other church will not have a marriage recognized by the Catholic Church unless he gets a dispensation before getting married (and any previous marriages have been declared null.)

A Catholic married outside the church who has been married before (whether in the Catholic Church or outside it) must go through the annulment process first. Usually the process for a Catholic who married outside the church is much shorter since there is defect do to lack of proper form.

Then if the previous marriages are declared null, the couple can have their marriage convalidated -at that time it will become sacramental.

Is your son a practicing Catholic?

 

[puzzleannie]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced. She was married by a JP. My son is also divorced. He was previously wed by a Mormon Bishop. The two want to get married in the Catholic Church but, since they are living together, want to speed up the process by marrying in a Protestant Church. They read some advice on the internet from a JCL that getting married in a Protestant Church (Church of God) is recognized by the Catholic Church and the lady can take RCI, marriage prep with my son ( my son is a confirmed Catholic) and they can be married in the Church at a later date. Is this method recognized as valid by the Church?

your son needs to decide what religion he is going to practice. If he is a baptized Catholic he is subject to all the laws and disciplines of the Catholic Church, including those on marriage. You left out most of the key pieces of info. Don’t bother posting them because it will do no good. Both of these people need to talk to their priest (who is the pastor of the parish in which they reside, since they are not currently registered anyplace) and take his advice on annulment and validity of their first marriages. The Church is not run via the internet, and any advice there is going to be general not specific. Their plan is totally out of sync with Church teaching, beginning with the cohabiting part. They are not married until their first marriages have been investigated and declared null, and they marry with a priest or deacon as witness, with a dispensation for your son to marry a non-Catholic, and complying with all other laws. Until then they are objectively living in sin, as they are now doing, because they are not free to marry. Get them to a priest, and they have to do this, you cannot do it for them. Until then, they need to separate, and your son needs confession and absolution. The current arrangement is not conducive to the attitude required for a successful marriage.

 

[THurifer2]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced. She was married by a JP. My son is also divorced. He was previously wed by a Mormon Bishop. The two want to get married in the Catholic Church but, since they are living together, want to speed up the process by marrying in a Protestant Church. They read some advice on the internet from a JCL that getting married in a Protestant Church (Church of God) is recognized by the Catholic Church and the lady can take RCI, marriage prep with my son ( my son is a confirmed Catholic) and they can be married in the Church at a later date. Is this method recognized as valid by the Church?

Bad advice in bold and the above scenario has so many problems it is making me scratch my head. Are either one of them a practicing Catholic? Has either one had an annulment? I

What are the reasons for wanting to get married in the Catholic church? It appears that they have some serious priority issues if the want to “speed” things up. I suggest both of them enroll in RCIA…get their first Marriages sent to the tribunal and live separately. Sacramental confession for the confirmed Catholic. There really is no other option. If they really want to become serious practicing Catholics someone should tell them that is the way it should be.

Their desire to get married in a protestant church seems to indicate that they are not serious about practicing the Catholic faith.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No can do.

Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Don’t confuse a civil marriage with a sacramental marriage. They’re not the same.

Jim

 

[PhilipCal]

I see some real problems with the scenario you posed. Why not try Asking an Apologist? Or, you can consult with a Priest/Deacon at a Catholic parish close to you.

 

[rpp]

The Church does not recognize any marriage as valid unless it is witnessed by a priest or deacon. Also, the people getting married must be free to marry, that is no previous unannulled marriages.

There are no loopholes with Church Law.

 

[benedictgal]

My 29 year old son is wanting to marry a lady who is divorced. She was married by a JP. My son is also divorced. He was previously wed by a Mormon Bishop. The two want to get married in the Catholic Church but, since they are living together, want to speed up the process by marrying in a Protestant Church. They read some advice on the internet from a JCL that getting married in a Protestant Church (Church of God) is recognized by the Catholic Church and the lady can take RCI, marriage prep with my son ( my son is a confirmed Catholic) and they can be married in the Church at a later date. Is this method recognized as valid by the Church?

If your son was Catholic at the time his wedding was officiated by a Mormon bishop, then, he was involved in an invalid marriage that would not have been recognized by the Church anyway. Now, because his fiancee was previously married by the JP (assuming her spouse was not Catholic), she will need to petition for an anulment. The Church recognizes even those civil marriages contracted between two non-Catholics. The Church does not recognize marriages wherein the Catholic party (or parties) contracted their nuptials in a civil ceremony or in a non-Catholic ceremony (unless a priest served as a witness to bless the marriage in a mixed religious ceremony; then, that’s certainly a horse of a different color).

If the fiancee wants to become a Catholic, she is already setting out on the wrong foot. As puzzleannie said, both of them need to decide that they want to be Catholic and remain Catholic. It’s not a cafeteria. It’s either all or nothing.

Nonetheless, in order to get the most accurate ruling, it is best that your son contact your diocesan tribunal office as soon as possible.

 

[Phemie]

The Church does not recognize any marriage as valid unless it is witnessed by a priest or deacon.

Even if you are speaking strictly about Catholics, that is not so. There are lay people who may witness marriages in the Catholic Church, we had at least one in our diocese.

When it comes to non-Catholics, the Church presumes that they are in valid marriages unless it can be proven otherwise.

 

[benedictgal]

Phemie:
Phemie, only a deacon, priest or bishop can serve as the celebrant of the sacrament of matrimony. While you can have the best man and the maid of honor “witness” the event, an ordained Catholic clergyman has to be present. That is universal, and, to my knowledge, Rome has never granted an indult allowing a lay person the same authority as clergy when it comes to weddings.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie, only a deacon, priest or bishop can serve as the celebrant of the sacrament of matrimony. While you can have the best man and the maid of honor “witness” the event, an ordained Catholic clergyman has to be present. That is universal, and, to my knowledge, Rome has never granted an indult allowing a lay person the same authority as clergy when it comes to weddings.

Yes, the Bishop can request that a lay person be granted that faculty by Rome. There was a nun in a remote village of our diocese where a priest only went once or twice a year, if the weather cooperated, who was granted that faculty by Rome. It’s in Canon Law.

Can. 1112 §1. Where there is a lack of priests and deacons, the diocesan bishop can delegate lay persons to assist at marriages, with the previous favorable vote of the conference of bishops and after he has obtained the permission of the Holy See.

§2. A suitable lay person is to be selected, who is capable of giving instruction to those preparing to be married and able to perform the matrimonial liturgy properly.

 

[rpp]

There is a huge difference between presuming a marriage is valid and a valid marriage.

As I have actually gone through this process, I can tell you that a couple married outside of the Catholic Church must have their marriage convalidated by a priest, deacon, bishop, or in those very unusual and extraordinary situations mentioned in canon, a lay person designated by the bishop in cooperation with Rome. A situation which does not exist anywhere in the USA.

In the case mentioned by the OP, the marriage would be presumed valid, but would still need to be convalidated. And then only after it has been confirmed that both people are free to marry.

 

[Phemie]

There is a huge difference between presuming a marriage is valid and a valid marriage.

As I have actually gone through this process, I can tell you that a couple married outside of the Catholic Church must have their marriage convalidated by a priest, deacon, bishop, or in those very unusual and extraordinary situations mentioned in canon, a lay person designated by the bishop in cooperation with Rome. A situation which does not exist anywhere in the USA.

In the case mentioned by the OP, the marriage would be presumed valid, but would still need to be convalidated. And then only after it has been confirmed that both people are free to marry.

Sorry, the reason for a convalidation is precisely that the marriage is INVALID without it.

In the OP’s post there are three marriages being discussed:
Her son’s first marriage in the Mormon Church – probably invalid for lack of canonical form since she didn’t indicate he’d obtained a dispensation to marry there.
Her son’s girlfriend’s first marriage – she’s not Catholic so her marriage would be presumed valid.
The marriage they are planning in a Protestant Church with the intention of having it convalidated – this marriage would be invalid for lack of canonical form AND because she’s already married in the eyes of the Church.

A convalidation wouldn’t be possible until she petitioned for and received a decree of nullity for her first marriage.

 

[rpp]

Sorry, the reason for a convalidation is precisely that the marriage is INVALID without it.

In the OP’s post there are three marriages being discussed:
Her son’s first marriage in the Mormon Church – probably invalid for lack of canonical form since she didn’t indicate he’d obtained a dispensation to marry there.
Her son’s girlfriend’s first marriage – she’s not Catholic so her marriage would be presumed valid.
The marriage they are planning in a Protestant Church with the intention of having it convalidated – this marriage would be invalid for lack of canonical form AND because she’s already married in the eyes of the Church.

A convalidation wouldn’t be possible until she petitioned for and received a decree of nullity for her first marriage.

While a tribunal would have to evaluate the previous “attempts at marriages” of both people, I believe your analysis is correct.

As for the earlier note about the presumption of validity, that is also a matter for the Tribunal. However, before one can receive our Lord in the Holy Eucharist, canon law states a marriage outside of the Church must be convalidated.

I think we are both saying the same thing.

 

[Phemie]

While a tribunal would have to evaluate the previous “attempts at marriages” of both people, I believe your analysis is correct.

Actually, if his marriage is invalid for lack of canonical form it doesn’t even have to go to the Tribunal, although that’s up to the diocesan bishop.

Some bishops are satisfied if the priest can document:

• that the marriage was celebrated outside the Catholic Church,
• that the required dispensation had not been obtained,
• that a divorce has been obtained.

The above demonstrates that no valid marriage exists and nothing further need be done.

 

[rpp]

Actually, if his marriage is invalid for lack of canonical form it doesn’t even have to go to the Tribunal, although that’s up to the diocesan bishop.

Some bishops are satisfied if the priest can document:

• that the marriage was celebrated outside the Catholic Church,
• that the required dispensation had not been obtained,
• that a divorce has been obtained.
  The above demonstrates that no valid marriage exists and nothing further need be done.

Looking at this I cannot help but think, in a tongue in cheeck manner, that not only does the Church have the complete deposit of faith, not only is she guided by the Holy Spirit, but I think the Church invented bureaucracy .