The Right to Choose

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ryecroft

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I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.
 
It is a choice to do crack cocaine, marijuana, or meth. It is a choice to rob a bank. It is a choice to come home one day with a knife and slaughter your entire family. Why doesn’t the Church endorse these choices, either?

And as for the argument that people would procure abortions, whether or not they are legal- well, that’s the entire point of having laws, isn’t it? If people are going to have abortions anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to do dtugs anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to commit rape anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to commit genocide anyway, why not make it safe and legal?

We may have the ability to choose, but that doesn’t make it an absolute right.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.
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I hope that you don’t think I should have the right to choose to murder you. Why should we have the right to choose to murder our children? Just because we can’t see them yet? I don’t understand this. Babies of the same gestational age are carefully birthed and cared for in a NICU or torn apart within their mother’s wombs because of whether or not they are wanted. Doesn’t there seem to be something profoundly wrong with this? As a Catholic, can you imagine that there is anyone out there that God doesn’t want? Have you looked at pictures of abortion? If you haven’t, you should before you decide that you should still be pro choice.

I can provide you links if you want.
 
In response, yes I have seen the pictures, the videos, etc. and yes, in certain cases, I am still PRO Choice, but still Catholic. If I wasn’t pro choice in some cicumstances, I wouldn’t be here right now.
 
The “right to choose” is exercised in the choice whether or not to perform the act that results in pregnancy. Nothing impedes that right - in fact, to deny that right is a felony (rape).

Notice that even in your first sentence you are drawn to address when a child is “ensouled”. Without a doubt you are aware that there is another individual that has to be accounted for in a pregnancy. In the best interpretation of your view, then, there are competing rights - your “right to choose” and the child’s right to live. Seen in that way, it is very difficult to say the choice is a superior right to life itself; therefore those with your viewpoint who try to claim some type of morality in their position are left trying to creatively re-define life itself.

You should note that not even Rowe grants you the “right to choose”. Even Rowe does not say you are not killing a child. Rowe simply found a mysterious right to privacy that permits you to elect to kill a child in the womb. It leaves it to you to decide how you live with that.
 
The right to CHOOSE? Choose what? Finish the sentence. The right to choose to kill a baby.
And you wonder why the church is against murder?! Really?
You know being Catholic means something. You self identify as a Catholic and then say you believe PRO Choice.
That is not Catholic.
Dear Lord Jesus please forgive those who do not choose to carry to term the life you have gifted them with. Your creation. It makes my heart hurt to even think of abortion. I love you Lord and I love your precious creation from the moment of conception to natural death.
Love in Christ Jesus
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen
 
The Church teaches that an eternal soul is created at the moment of conception. Why would God wait forty or eighty days to ensoul someone? Why would He allow a body to grow without a soul? Just in case somebody “chose” to kill it? Is it just a soulless mass of lifeless tissue until “magically” after so many days the soul becomes eternal? A human being is a human being in all stages of life, starting from conception. We aren’t any less human at one second after conception than we are at one hundred years old. Sure, we may look different, we may not be functional yet at one second after conception, but are we not still human? At the exact MOMENT of conception, the person’s DNA is complete. The DNA does not change. DNA tells us the characteristics of that creation. There is no denying that it is human; it is certainly not the DNA of an elephant, a bat, or a plant that is in the human mother’s womb. It had a human father and a human mother, thereore it is human. There IS NO DENYING THIS FACT! So, if you “choose” to kill this creation, even if you do not believe that it has an eternal soul yet, you have still killed a human being, and that is strictly against God’s plan.

Just because it is not wanted is no reason to kill a child. If a woman who wants her child miscarries, even very early in the pregnancy, she grieves. Friends and family console her. Why? Because she has lost a soulless blob? No, because she has lost a child. Yet, when it is a mother who does not want it and “chooses” to kill it (Hmmmm…to kill or not to kill, THAT is the question…Geez, people talk about killing another human being as a “choice”, like deciding what to order off of a wine list or something :mad:) then she has not killed an honest to God human being, but a “tissue mass”. Wanted - miscarriage of a child. Unwanted - aborted soulless tissue mass. What is the REAL difference? Absolutely nothing!
 
So at what point would you protect the baby from being killed: 8 weeks? 3 months? 6 months? 8 months? 9 months? one minue before birth? one minute after birth? up to 6 months after birth? Everybody’s got some point at which they would prohibit the execution of the child. At least I think they do.
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
It is a choice to do crack cocaine, marijuana, or meth. It is a choice to rob a bank. It is a choice to come home one day with a knife and slaughter your entire family. Why doesn’t the Church endorse these choices, either?

And as for the argument that people would procure abortions, whether or not they are legal- well, that’s the entire point of having laws, isn’t it? If people are going to have abortions anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to do dtugs anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to commit rape anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to commit genocide anyway, why not make it safe and legal?

We may have the ability to choose, but that doesn’t make it an absolute right.
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Amen! Just because we have free will does not make every “choice” right. I could “choose” to go out and lynch a stranger just because he’s black. I could “choose” to go to my daughter’s school tomorrow with an assault rifle and open fire. After all, I have the God-given FREE WILL to do it.

But, you’ve to to ask yourself - should I?
 
ryecroft said:
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And please don't give the argument that "the fetus doesn't get to choose..." because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking .
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how do you know the baby can’t think. memory intelect and will are powers of the soul. babies get souls at conception. while i know a lot of stuff, i dont know much about how the soul actually works, i doubt anybody would claim too. but i do think that something that has memory intelect and will can make choices even if we cant intreprt or understand them.
 
Biggie said:
The “right to choose” is exercised in the choice whether or not to perform the act that results in pregnancy. Nothing impedes that right - in fact, to deny that right is a felony (rape).

Notice that even in your first sentence you are drawn to address when a child is “ensouled”. Without a doubt you are aware that there is another individual that has to be accounted for in a pregnancy. In the best interpretation of your view, then, there are competing rights - your “right to choose” and the child’s right to live. Seen in that way, it is very difficult to say the choice is a superior right to life itself; therefore those with your viewpoint who try to claim some type of morality in their position are left trying to creatively re-define life itself.

You should note that not even Rowe grants you the “right to choose”. Even Rowe does not say you are not killing a child. Rowe simply found a mysterious right to privacy that permits you to elect to kill a child in the womb. It leaves it to you to decide how you live with that.
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Actually, the only reason that I used the word “ensouled” was because that was the word that Thomas Aquinas used when he talking about when a pregnancy could end in good consince - granted, we can’t believe everything Aqinas said because he also said that if the woman carried a male, it was “ensouled” at 40 days, if it was a femal then it was “ensouled” at 80 days-they had some interesting ways of thinking back then. But we’re getting away from the actual question - this is legal in the US and many other countries - granted, personally I don’t think it sould be used as a form of birth control, there are far too many other ways and forms of artificial birth control that are much simpler than having an abortion. I just don’t believe that a woman if she does not want to or feels it is not in her best interest should be FORCED to CHOOSE only one way - In China, I don’t believe they should be forced to abort in certain situations - here I don’t feel that anyone has the right to make that decision but the person who is going to have to carry a fetus, pregnancy whatever you want to call it for nine months. I believe that when they die, they will have to explain themselves to God and that is more than enough justice.

I am trying to say that it is all wrong to have one - I believe that there are cases where it is necessary - or has been necessary to have one. Like anything else when time is up on Earth, if you believe in God then you believe that you’ll need to account for your actions. Personally, we’ve had to make the decision and I’m glad we were able to make that choice because I didn’t particularly want to die for the possiblity for a less than 10% chance of both of us making it in one piece. When you’ve dealt with that kind of choice then I think you’re ready to weigh in on saying “I would Never EVER Condone abortion at any time” - if your wife’s organs are petering out because her body can’t handle the extra burdern and you have to decide what to do, then come and tell me that you can say for 100% sure that you would never ever condone it.

And yes, there is a such thing as a Pro Choice Catholic. If you’re going to try to exclude every Catholic who believes that abortion is not allways 100% of the time wrong - for instance medically or for other reasons than you’re going to loose at least 58% of the Catholics (that was from one of the polls - and it was the most lenient -some go as high as 73%)
 
Heath_Bar said:
Absoulutely correct. We cannot be Catholic and pro-choice. Drop the cafeteria tray and get to confession. 😃
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You’re implying that someone needs to go to confession because they have an opinion??? that’s ridiculous - If I have an opinion and don’t do anything else regarding it - how can that be sinful? Are you trying to imply that just because you’re Catholic, you need to go out and put yourself in front of a planned parent hood or abotion clinic? To say that would be to say if you didn’t do that you were sinful. So if I also believe that the Church should allow women priests should I then also go to confession because I disagree with something the Church says??? I don’t believe that God is going to fault anyone for having an opinion be it for or against something - now if you do something about it, that’s a different situation.
 
ryecroft said:
You’re implying that someone needs to go to confession because they have an opinion??? that’s ridiculous - If I have an opinion and don’t do anything else regarding it - how can that be sinful? Are you trying to imply that just because you’re Catholic, you need to go out and put yourself in front of a planned parent hood or abotion clinic? To say that would be to say if you didn’t do that you were sinful. So if I also believe that the Church should allow women priests should I then also go to confession because I disagree with something the Church says??? I don’t believe that God is going to fault anyone for having an opinion be it for or against something - now if you do something about it, that’s a different situation.
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please dont take this as an attack on you, more on your flawed argument, but thats the thing, by writing it down and putting it out there for people to see we do DO things about our opinions.

you have just advocated against two teachings of the Church that were made infalliably
  1. no abortion, and
  2. no women priests
while i cant quote canon law off the top of my head at this hour i’m pretty sure that its a no-no
 
aggiecatholic05 said:
please dont take this as an attack on you, more on your flawed argument, but thats the thing, by writing it down and putting it out there for people to see we do DO things about our opinions.

you have just advocated against two teachings of the Church that were made infalliably
  1. no abortion, and
  2. no women priests
while i cant quote canon law off the top of my head at this hour i’m pretty sure that its a no-no
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aggie catholic - please don’t take this the wrong way, but I did put it in a “what if” situation - I just don’t see how my being a Catholic who happens to pro choice in certain circumstances can be a sin. I get what you’re trying to point out but just because I have an opinion and state it does not cause it to be a sin. So saying that I disagree with teachings of the Catholic Church and being a Catholic is a sin? If it is than God help us because I feel the inquisition coming - of course, no one expects the Spanish inquisition - sorry couldn’t resist that last part!
 
technically you said ‘so if’ not ‘what if’, but i get it. i took it to be more of you giving you opinions in that manner than a true hypothetical. the internet still doesnt express tone well.

now so we’re clear this is a hypothetical not just at you: if you publicly express your opinion that goes against Church teaching that could, COULD be an act of schism. and passing that idea on to someone else could make them act on that opinion in a manner that could make you complicit in their sin.

oh and at least to me good jokes/lines are always welcome
 
ryecroft said:
aggie catholic - please don’t take this the wrong way, but I did put it in a “what if” situation - I just don’t see how my being a Catholic who happens to pro choice in certain circumstances can be a sin. I get what you’re trying to point out but just because I have an opinion and state it does not cause it to be a sin. So saying that I disagree with teachings of the Catholic Church and being a Catholic is a sin? If it is than God help us because I feel the inquisition coming - of course, no one expects the Spanish inquisition - sorry couldn’t resist that last part!
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We all have the right to form an opinion, however, we have the obligation to form those opinions in accord with the teachings of the Church, if we are to remain Catholic.

We must have an “informed conscience”. By studying the teachings of the Magisterium, we are able to form an opinion in accord with the Church. Clearly, you have failed in this obligation.

Whether a sin or not? Not for me to say, but I can see where scandal and possibly influencing others could indeed be sinful.
 
Indyann said:
We all have the right to form an opinion, however, we have the obligation to form those opinions in accord with the teachings of the Church, if we are to remain Catholic.

We must have an “informed conscience”. By studying the teachings of the Magisterium, we are able to form an opinion in accord with the Church. Clearly, you have failed in this obligation.

Whether a sin or not? Not for me to say, but I can see where scandal and possibly influencing others could indeed be sinful.
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I have studied the teachings of the “magisterium” and read information ad nausium - I’m clear on what the teachings are - you said that I have failed in this obligation -I’ve read nearly everything I could get my hands on regarding this - especially when I was working on my masters work in ecclesiastical history- so I have studied what has been said in the past and what is said now so,I truely believe that I have an informed conscience so some may be able to study the teachings of the Magesterium and form an opinion in accord with the church - I have gone over the teachings ad nausm and I still feel and believe the there are situations where abortion should be allowed - since aparently with this it’s either you’re completely against abortion at all times not matter the circumstance or you’re pro choice. No inbetween or anything like that. So I have to say I am a Catholic who is pro choice - I don’t think I’ve failed - unless you mean that I failed to come to the conclusion that the church wants me to come to. In which case I agree wholeheartedly - yes I have failed to come to the same conclusion they have - and I’m not the only one.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief.
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No variations in the teaching of the Catholic Church:

Decree of the Tribunal of the Holy Office 28 May, 1884

Decree of the Tribunal of the Holy Office 18 August, 1889

The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith DECLARATION ON PROCURRED ABORTION 18 November, 1974

These three include the concept of ‘anticipated murder’, “supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul…”

Note that The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon law treat Murder and Abortion as two distinctly different things. Note also that Evangelium Vitae, which declares both to be, infallibly, “grave moral disorders”.

This was taught as far back as St. Augustine and earlier. St. Jerome and St. Thomas Aquinas, Innocent III and Gregory XIV and several other popes also expressed it in their writings.

This in no way makes the transgression less grave, it just means that there are strong theological and Sacred Tradition reasons the two are presented as seperate teachings. We are ‘Creationists’, we each receive an indivisable soul which is a unique creation of God.

Therefore you have not shown how the Church has ever taught or implied that abortion always and everywhere is anything but “a grave moral disorder” and an intrinsic evil and affront to the dignity of human life.

The point or day of ensoulment has always been irrelevant. Why make it so?
God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE:
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Choose what?
Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone.
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Take the ability to choose to do what freely away from someone?
And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable.
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That is why they are dependent on us to protect them from people who think it is okay to kill them. They are helpless. Shame on you to take advantage of them. :tsktsk:
 
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