The Rock - Third Person

[Salvatore123]

BlueMary,

First, I did NOT misquote the Bible. Every quote I listed was taken word for word from a Challoner Duoay-Rheims bible.

Second, I never said that Jesus DID do what I described. I merely offered it as a simple explanation of what could easily have happened, without having to have arguments about “petros” vs. “petras” and whether the “rock” referred to Peter himself or Peter’s confession that Jesus was the Christ.

Christ was very economical with his words - he did not use many words, but he said an awfult lot in the few words he did speak.

Third, you said: “. . . so there is absolutely nothing to indicate that he was refering to anyone other that Peter.”

Not so. The very last verse of this discourse stated: “Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.” If that does not strongly suggest that he turned and addressed all of those gathered around him whe he said the preceding, I don’t know what much more you want, other than actual words saying, “Jesus turned . . .” or “Jesus then look at . . .” When I give speeches that I intend for the entire audience, I move my head and body so that the entire audience feels like I am talking to all of them. When someone asks a question of me, I will zero in on the questioner and stay focused on him if the question and answer are a little off base or the answer is very short and simple. But if I think the questioner posed an excellent question and the entire audience can benefit from what my answer will be, I will usually restate the question to the audience and answer the question for the audience, all the while turning towards and speaking to the entire audience and not just to the one questioner.

As Notworthy said, my approach was meant to get away from the verbal gymnastics people have played to expound on the relevant verses.

Finally, nothing in the Centurion example I cited stated that Jesus turned to anyone when commenting on the faith of the Centurion. But I think it very likely that he did. Once the Centurion demonstrated the deepness of his faith to Christ, Christ surely did not need to tell the Centurion:

“And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel. 11And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Christ did not need to tell the Centurion what he said was proof of faith. The Centurion already knew that - as demonstrated by him telling Christ you don’t need to come to my home - just say it, and I know it will be done. Thus, when Jesus says “amen I say to YOU” and says again “And I say to YOU”, and goes on with the sentence, I have no problem seeing in my head that Jesus turned towards the crowd.

It makes sense (at least to me) that when he said the statements above, he was specifically talking to the crowd gathered around him before the Centurion approached. Now who talks to a crowd of people and doesn’t look at them while he is talking? I guess a blind man would be an exception, but Jesus wasn’t blind.

Anecdote* - Although it is not definitive in any way, I went back to the old 1970’s version of Jesus of Nazareth, and apparently the director thought the same as I do, as the man playing Jesus acted in the same manner as I just described as far as his body movements and direction of speaking.

 

[NHInsider]

I can’t decide whether these repeated “rock” arguments are amusing or annoying. It’s not as if acknowledging that Jesus called Peter “rock” means we don’t think that Jesus is the foundation of our faith. It’s not an either-or choice - Peter is nothing without Jesus, and we all know that. Of course Jesus is the stone the builder rejected - and the rock that gave water to the Israelites, and the stumbling block. Of course all the Apostles are the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. None of those change the plain meaning of the text in Matthew 16.

Incidentally, if you haven’t seen pictures of the Gates of Hell and the Rock at Caesarae Philippi, where Matthew tells us this conversation took place, it’s an amazing sight, worth googling - a huge cliff, at the bottom of which there is a natural opening to the underground springs below. Evidence is that from Canaanite times, this was a site of sacrifice, including human sacrifice - victims were offered by being thrown into the abyss. Jesus wasn’t being random when He gave the promise there - He was speaking at the very spot where the Chosen People had fallen into idolatry before, and where the Roman Emperor had a temple erected to himself - ground zero for idolatry, essentially.

 

[Salvatore123]

NH,

I completely agree with your last post.

In my humble opinion, many Catholic Apologists have backed themselves into corners that they find hard to escape from because of the twisting and turning of sentences, words, syllable, puctuation marks.

People forget that the original manuscripts St. Jerome had didn’t have chapter numbers, verse numbers, and even periods. Can you imagine the task it would be to translate 3000 pages worth of material into a language completely different from the transcript language, where little or no puctuation exists?

Like you, I have see so many arguments about petros being a “big rock” and petra being a little stone, and the true rock was Christ (which we all acknowledge as you said) but what about what he said.

Look at the entire section where Jesus “doles out” authority. Was he speaking JUST to Peter regarding all of the duties/powers he was mentioning, or was he speaking to all of the Apostles. The Church teaches that this was the first “annointing” of a pope, but the remaining powers he describes actually apply to others in addition to the Holy Father. So was he describing what all of the Apostles would be able to do once Peter began planting the seeds that would result in the growth of the chuch? The passage does not say, and I am not aware of any dogma on what this entire paragraph encompassed.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

There is an extra “the” in Mt 16:18 in Greek:

… and upon this THE rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not be strong under it…

If Jesus meant a different rock – there is no reason for extra words – he need merely say “and upon rock” The extra “The” acts like the English emphatic “very”:

… and upon this VERY rock I will …

But there is something more important to grasp about the image of a “Rock”.
The Israelite people are rocks hewn from Abraham. Abraham is Petra. Peter is a descendant of Abraham and is thus rock from Abraham. He didn’t need Jesus to tell him he was Peter, for all Israelites are Petros from Petra.

Also… in Peter’s profession:
The word “Christos” (messiah/annointed) can refer to King David, and others. Peter in the previous passage says, “You (alone) are THE annointed.” which singles Jesus out as “THE” messiah – not a mere priest, prophet, or king among many but an expected one.

Jesus’ statement to Peter is a likeness of Peter’s profession – for Jesus says “but likewise I say to you…”

If there are two rocks in Mt 16:18 – a pebble and a boulder, let’s say – then Jesus would be contradicting Peter’s confession because Peter professes but ONE messiah – and then Jesus says “BUT” and proceeds to list TWO rocks ??

The likeness suggests one Rock or two messiahs in order for the statements not to be contrary. If one asserts Jesus is The Rock, then so is Peter – for otherwise there are two rocks and nothing is unique about Peter compared to all other rocks from Abraham.

But there’s more…

Peter is not son of Jonah by birth, Mt 16:17, rather he is son of John – John 21:16; and there’s something fishy (John 21:10) about it.
Peter would have thought about the prophet Jonah when Jesus calls him bar-Jonah.

Jonah is a supreme symbol of Jesus – and a prototype for the death, descent to Hades, and resurrection of Jesus followed by salvation of Gentiles. So Jesus is mysteriously associating Peter alone with that prophecy. And that prophecy is the also the sign given to the Jews. In Mt 16:18 – notice what it ends with; The gates of Hades will not be strong under it. Again, this connects the prophecy of Jonah to what Jesus is saying – for Jonah is the prophet associated with the dead.

Jonah ran away from God’s plan – Matth 16:21-22, denial three times:Matth 26:34
Jonah cried out to God from his watery grave – Matth 14:24, 30
and so forth…

To not associate Peter with the foundation rock of the church is to make a grave error. D) Matthew carefully shows us that in each of the ways Jesus acts like Jonah – Peter also acts like Jonah. No other disciple does this. So, everything in Mt 16:18 points to Peter being the Image of Jesus in a unique way that distinguishes him from the rest of the twelve.

 

[danto]

…
After Peter responded directly to Jesus, our Lord turned directly to Peter and said:

" 18*And I say to thee: That thou art Peter;"

and then, turning now his gaze to all of the Apostles standing near him, said to ALL OF THEM, and not ADDRESSING ANY PARTICULAR APOSTLE SPECIFICALLY AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT:

“and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever **thou **shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.”

I’m curious about the form of the words “thee” and “thou” in this scenario. Assuming Jesus was turning to the crowd at that particular point then the “thee” and “thou” should be referring to a group of people. My understanding is that the “thee” and “thou” here are in the singular form in the greek; therefore Jesus was still addressing Peter directly.

Could anyone confirm that?

 

[Apollos]

I’m curious about the form of the words “thee” and “thou” in this scenario. Assuming Jesus was turning to the crowd at that particular point then the “thee” and “thou” should be referring to a group of people. My understanding is that the “thee” and “thou” here are in the singular form in the greek; therefore Jesus was still addressing Peter directly.

Could anyone confirm that?

You’re right, *thee *and *thou *are singular. Contrast 18:18, “Whatsoever **ye **shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever **ye **shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (KJV).

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Matth 16:19 δω-σ-ω σοι τας κλειδ-ας της βασιλε-ι-ας των ουραν-ων και ο εαν δη-σ-ης επι της γης εσται δε-δε-μεν-ον εν τοις ουραν-οις και ο εαν λυσ-ης επι της γης εσται λελυ-μεν-ον εν τοις ουραν-οις Κονσταν

Odd, there is only one explicit you in the passage but there are multiple and plural heavenS. The thees and thous you spoke of are implied in the verb – 2nd person singular in the subjunctive. That means the outcome depends on Peter.

I-will-give to-you the keys of-the-king of-heavens and the-thing if you-loose(continuously) upon the earth the-thing-is-being-loosed in the heavens and the the-thing if you-bind(continuously) upon the earth the-thing-is-being-bound in the heavens.

 

[PJM]

=corrgc;6862903]Greetings Christians!

From Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics by Ron Rhodes

On Peter being the Rock:

…whenever Peter is referred to in this passage (Matthew 16) it is in the second person (“you”), but “this rock” is in the third person (verse 18).

Ron does not elaborate on the argument. Have any of you heard this one before? Can anyone elaborate on how this is used to disprove the historical teaching?

Sincerely in Christ,
Corrgc

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[danto]

I found an interesting link (biblos.com) that will provide the greek to english word-for-word translation side by side. The amount of times people refer in discussions to “the original greek” I’ll have to do some reading on basic greek soon

It has the ability to click on each greek word for a definition and quickly see if the tenses.

Interlinear Bible - Matthew 16

 

[twinc]

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

this I find to be the explanation for it does not subtract from the fact that Peter is/was appointed as head of the Church that had Christ[God]as its rock or foundation - it is strange that sand becomes sandstone becomes rock but not a really solid rock - " thou art Peter a precious gem stone or sandstone but upon this solid rock of ages I wiil build my Church and to thee will I give the keys to this Church" etc - twinc

 

[The_Scott]

I found an interesting link (biblos.com) that will provide the greek to english word-for-word translation side by side. The amount of times people refer in discussions to “the original greek” I’ll have to do some reading on basic greek soon

It has the ability to click on each greek word for a definition and quickly see if the tenses.

Interlinear Bible - Matthew 16

That’s so cool!
LOVE IT!

 

[PJM]

=The_Scott;6892240]That’s so cool!
LOVE IT!

THANKS for the info site:thumbsup:

 

[Huiou_Theou]

That’s so cool!
LOVE IT!

That site is quite good as far listing the parts of speech, from what I can tell – but watch out for the definitions !!

If you look carefully, you’ll notice that the translation is missing words in many places – and that has to do with the translator’s choices – don’t assume those words are untranslatable… Also notice that the same Greek word changes meaning often in the English; Words have a primary meaning and a little study will show that there is often a single word that will work for translation in 90+% of the cases.

When studying the text, It is far better to find several instances of a word and compare the meaning against translation(s) – than to use Strong’s numbers (eg: the dictionary they give) for often Strong’s is so vague as to be useless, and is often misleading with respect to how little or much one can actually demonstrate from a passage.

dig in…!

 

[PJM]

=Huiou Theou;6895759]That site is quite good as far listing the parts of speech, from what I can tell – but watch out for the definitions !!

If you look carefully, you’ll notice that the translation is missing words in many places – and that has to do with the translator’s choices – don’t assume those words are untranslatable… Also notice that the same Greek word changes meaning often in the English; Words have a primary meaning and a little study will show that there is often a single word that will work for translation in 90+% of the cases.

When studying the text, It is far better to find several instances of a word and compare the meaning against translation(s) – than to use Strong’s numbers (eg: the dictionary they give) for often Strong’s is so vague as to be useless, and is often misleading with respect to how little or much one can actually demonstrate from a passage.

dig in…!

I checked it out. My recommendation is that ONLY experience and knowledgeable Catholics use it. It’s primarly a Protestant site; but VERY Good!

 

[Spikeddie]

Greetings Christians!

From Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics by Ron Rhodes

On Peter being the Rock:

…whenever Peter is referred to in this passage (Matthew 16) it is in the second person (“you”), but “this rock” is in the third person (verse 18).

Ron does not elaborate on the argument. Have any of you heard this one before? Can anyone elaborate on how this is used to disprove the historical teaching?

Sincerely in Christ,
Corrgc

 

[PJM]

=Spikeddie;6896947]

From STRONGS Concordance and Dictionary:

**Mat 16:18 (KJV) **— And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

**Mat 16:18 (RSV) **— And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Chepas can only be translatd as ROCK.

Petra is masculine gender and that is what Jesus used.

Strongs # Translit. Pronunciation English Equivalent
H5553 סֶלַע cela seh'·lah rock, strong hold, stones, stony H6697 צוּר tsuwr tsür rock, strength, sharp, God, beauty, edge, stones, mighty One, strong H3710 **כְּף keph kāf rock ** H2496 חַלָּמִישׁ challamiysh klal·lä·mēsh' flint, flinty, rock H4581 מָעוֹז maowz mä·ōz’ strength, strong, fortress, hold, forces, fort, rock, strengthen
Greek Results (New Testament) Strongs # Translit. Pronunciation English Equivalent
G4073 **πέτρα petra pe’-trä rock **
G5138 τραχύς trachys trä-khü’s rough, rock
G5117 τόπος topos to’-pos place, room, quarter, licence, coast, where, plain, rock

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,** Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, ** in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Spikeddie]

After reading the many replies to the meaning of this passage, I find that one of the most important ideas in this passage has been omitted. Seems everyone is dancing AROUND THE ISSUE OF THIRD PERSON, SECOND PERSON, etc. and missing the most important point that Christ said to Peter after his statement “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
And Christ said “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church…” on this statement ( this rock) “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” I will build my church— not some man*, but on the statement that flesh and blood had not revealed to him, but the Father who is in heaven.
Could it be any simpler than that?

*some man - Note: Wasn’t it Peter who denied the Lord three times before the cock crowed after he was crucified?

 

[PJM]

=Spikeddie;6897022]After reading the many replies to the meaning of this passage, I find that one of the most important ideas in this passage has been omitted. Seems everyone is dancing AROUND THE ISSUE OF THIRD PERSON, SECOND PERSON, etc. and missing the most important point that Christ said to Peter after his statement “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
And Christ said “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church…” on this statement ( this rock) “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” I will build my church— not some man*, but on the statement that flesh and blood had not revealed to him, but the Father who is in heaven.
Could it be any simpler than that?

*some man - Note: Wasn’t it Peter who denied the Lord three times before the cock crowed after he was crucified?

AMEN!

But if they accept this there entire beleif system is at risk!

 

[Huiou_Theou]

From STRONGS Concordance and Dictionary:

**Mat 16:18 (KJV) **— And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

**Mat 16:18 (RSV) **— And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Chepas can only be translatd as ROCK.

Notice, neither translation shows the first word to be “likewise”. Matth 16:18 doesn’t begin with a simple “and” (καιׁ).

Petra is masculine gender and that is what Jesus used.

Sigh. Unfortunately, not quite true.
“Petros” is masculine, “Petra” is feminine/collective. Jesus most likely said “Cephas” and the version of Matthew we have is written to a Greek speaking audience – so the Greek version says Petros(πετρος) once and as Petra(πετρα) once.

That is where the common apologetic against the passage (although false) comes from. In John 1:42 Jesus prophecies that he will call Peter “Rock” – Cephas. The KJV lamely translates it “stone”. The corner"stone" of the structure is Jesus himself and Jesus identifies himself with Peter.

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus uses the collective word “Petra” the second time and in the literal phrase “this the rock” which shows that Jesus did not mean it collectively – but as one rock out of many. “this very rock”.

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,** Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, ** in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Yes, and there are four corners – 12 gates (each of the 4 sides has a triple gate). One gate for each tribe, and each of the 12 Apostles. Each of the 4 triple gates led to a different place in the temple. One is for the sacrificial sheep – one for the gentiles, women, etc. There is no entering the temple except through those gates…

The analogies have common truths, but be careful not to make too much of it. If Jesus were only the cornerstone – then who is the “Sun” which gives it light? Just because Jesus is the cornerstone (chief) doesn’t mean there are no others share in this. Indeed, Abraham is likened to Rock in the old testament “Petran” which is feminine/neuter just like Petra. (Subject vs. object is the only difference)

Isaia 51:1 … εμ-βλε-ψα-τε εις την στερε-αν πετρ-αν ην ε-λατομη-σα-τε και εις τον βοθυνον του λακκ-ου ον ωρυ-ξ-ατε
Isaia 51:1 … Look into the solid rock [you]-were quarried-from and into the ditch of-the cistern…
Isaia 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, and to Sarah that bore you…

The promise, don’t forget, was to Abraham forever. The last of Isaiah was associated with being freed from Babylon, the day of the Messiah, the fulfillment of promises temporarily put on hold due to sin. I think Jesus wanted Peter to notice with the association of Rock and Abraham that he had a special part to play in Jesus’ out-calling/church.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

After reading the many replies to the meaning of this passage, I find that one of the most important ideas in this passage has been omitted. Seems everyone is dancing AROUND THE ISSUE OF THIRD PERSON, SECOND PERSON, etc. and missing the most important point that Christ said to Peter after his statement “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
And Christ said “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church…” on this statement ( this rock) “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” I will build my church— not some man*, but on the statement that flesh and blood had not revealed to him, but the Father who is in heaven.
Could it be any simpler than that?

*some man - Note: Wasn’t it Peter who denied the Lord three times before the cock crowed after he was crucified?

No, because it doesn’t make sense. Jesus was planning to build his church on Peter (rock). The third person issues, etc. are all false. Jesus says to Peter – “Likewise I say to you, you are Peter(rock) and upon this the(very) Rock I will build my out-calling and the gates of hell will not be strong under it.”

The denial matches the Prophet Jonah, whom Jesus identifies Peter with. It does nothing to negate what Jesus says in that passage. In the end Jonah converted and did as God asked and became the instrument of salvation for the Ninevites. Just so, Peter goes through the same pattern.